Competitive shooting a plus in defense.

[Bultaco]

After participating in a couple threads here concerning trigger and stance, I would suggest that ongoing participation in one of the action shooting sports is a major plus in becoming a competent defensive shooter.
I spent the last 15 years involved in an IDPAish local pistol match as well as local 3 gun competition. I was the match director for the vast majority of that time. I noticed that a large number of people who had taken lower level "defensive shooting classes" still had not mastered the handling of their weapon. They could not deliver accurate shots on demand and their gun handling was not up to par.(Draw stroke/speed, reloads, etc.)
I suspect one of the issues is that taking a class is a once every year or so affair. They do not follow through with a LOT more practice and don't have people around them to keep them involved.
Among the newer/less skilled shooters that I observed thru the years who started to shoot our matches regularly there was a marked improvement in skill and a motivation to continue to get better. They were in squads with better shooters and got tips and encouragement to improve.
There is always the argument about how some game "tactics" will get you killed, but so will being a lousy, slow shot with a pistol. Shooting at someone and missing them is not good for your future. Some sports do require the use of cover that does help develop shooting skills from more than just the "stand square and shoot" situation.
I have had people who have taken much more than just the basic CCW class who didn't really get to where they could shoot well until they spent a couple years attending monthly pistol matches. It gave them a good reason to really focus on what they were doing and immediate feed back on how they were doing. The $20 entry fee plus ammo is quite a bit cheaper than using the next class to practice.
They also are presented with a good variety of target types and shooting positions to cause them to have to adapt to things they may not be good at.
I have found that timer and peer pressure do provide a small amount of stress that they have to learn to perform under. Overall I think the regular shooting matches give the CCW person a big edge in the learning curve.

[MrBorland]

I agree - while competition's not SD training, it does help one's shooting and gun handling skills tremendously. Shooters who are new to competition are often surprised at how little proficiency they actually have when tested.

And even though the stress of a timer and squad mates watching must be mild compared to that of a SD situation, it's definitely enough to test your performance.

Finally, competition tests your gear. To play, your stuff has to run, and run reliably, so competitions like IDPA are excellent testing grounds for testing your gear. Many are negatively surprised at how unreliable their EDC gear was when put to the test - the very gear they were relying on to possibly save their life.

[T. O'Heir]

"...competition tests your gear..." IPSC and IDPA and all the rest are shooting games and nothing more. Difference between the games and reality is nobody is trying to hurt you during the game.
None of the kit used playing either game is used by anybody carrying a concealed defensive firearm. Kit's too big to conceal and isn't designed to be concealed anyway. It's sporting equipment only.
Plus there's no daft artificial "power factor". No "weak hand" silliness. If you get wounded, even lightly, you're out of the fight. There's no switching hands and continuing to shoot. Absolutely no hauling around multiple mags or 'mandatory reloads. Nor do the games have any of the adrenaline release/outright fear of a real life confrontation. And anybody who says they won't be scared is lying. IPSC/IDPA are games. Period.
"...still had not mastered the handling of their weapon..." Firearm? Very likely none of the new game players ever do any kind of practice with the ammo they intent using for CCW. IDPA/IPSC isn't that.
"...so will being a lousy, slow shot..." Lousy, yes. Slow, no. Accuracy outweighs speed every time. A single, well placed, shot beats a fast shot and a quick draw.
"...in squads with better shooters...peer pressure..." Tends to discourage the FNG. Couldn't count the number of guys I know who won't go play any of the shooting games because they think they're not good enough. They think they'll be laughed at.

[zincwarrior]

None of the kit used playing either game is used by anybody carrying a concealed defensive firearm. Kit's too big to conceal and isn't designed to be concealed anyway. It's sporting equipment only.

IDPA has specific categories for CC and BUG guns. I typically run my CC about once every two months. Because of IDPA I've changed my CC, my holster, and my spare mag carrier. The only real difference is the barrel length, trigger pull, and type of sight between what I compete with and what I carry. I'd even have the same sight but my CC is perfectly sighted as is and I don't want the chance of messing that up.

Do I run the same ammo? yes actually, just RN vs. HP. Same bullet weight, same velocity.

Is one good shot important? Sure. Under an adrenalin dump six good shots are better.

Is it complete tactical training? No of course not.
Are there "game" aspects? Yes, of course.

However, unless you have access to tactical training on a weekly basis, they help with fast acquiring targets, discerning targets, and fast accurate shooting often while on the move, which us nonlow drag tacticool ninjas don't normally have access to. The fact police -and police shooting teams- regularly compete in our squads in full gear is a nice touch.

Not getting a lot of the hostility from the poster above. Maybe thats just the style of writing.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

...IPSC and IDPA and all the rest are shooting games and nothing more. Difference between the games and reality is nobody is trying to hurt you during the game.....

Phooey! While IPSC/IDPA are not the same as a gun fight, nor is anyone shooting at you, and they are no substitute for focused self defense training, they are a valuable addition to one's self defense training.

They allow one to practice useful basic skills like shooting quickly and accurately under pressure, shooting and moving, target identification and acquisition, engaging multiple targets, moving safely with a loaded gun in your hand, shooting from unconventional postures, good gun handling under pressure, etc.

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

...None of the kit used playing either game is used by anybody carrying a concealed defensive firearm. Kit's too big to conceal and isn't designed to be concealed anyway. It's sporting equipment only....

Hogwash. I've shot many matches using exactly the same gear I've carried concealed -- even did fairly well in some of them.

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

....No "weak hand" silliness. If you get wounded, even lightly, you're out of the fight. There's no switching hands and continuing to shoot....

Hogwash again. Many people have continued to fight on even when severely wounded. For example, LAPD Officer Stacy Lim who was shot in the chest with a .357 Magnum and still ran down her attacker, returned fire, killed him, survived, and ultimately was able to return to duty. She was off duty and heading home after a softball game and a brief stop at the station to check her work assignment. According to the article I linked to:

... The bullet ravaged her upper body when it nicked the lower portion of her heart, damaged her liver, destroyed her spleen, and exited through the center of her back, still with enough energy to penetrate her vehicle door, where it was later found....

Then there was the FBI "Miami Shootout" in which a mortally wounded bad guy continued to fight and killed or wounded several FBI agents before being taken out by a seriously wounded agent (with one arm out of commission).

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

...Very likely none of the new game players ever do any kind of practice with the ammo they intent using for CCW....

And you know this how? Produce some evidence to support your claim.

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

...Tends to discourage the FNG. Couldn't count the number of guys I know who won't go play any of the shooting games because they think they're not good enough. They think they'll be laughed at.

Then you know a lot of fools. In my experience IPSC/IDPA clubs welcome new shooter and will bend over backwards to help them along. The first order of business has always been safety, and I've never seen anyone at an IPSC/IDPA club laughed at for "not being good enough", although they will be corrected for unsafe practices.

[pax]

I come down firmly in the mushy middle on this one.

Competition is helpful practice, IF you layer it over a strong foundation of defensive firearms skills that were laid down by good instructional coaching (which typically happens in defense-oriented firearms classes from solid schools).

Competition can build sub-optimal habits for self defense, and build mindsets detrimental to self defense, IF you think of it as "training" and jump into it without first laying down that good solid foundation of defensive skills with the help of a good coach.

Then add the Dunning-Kruger Effect at work and note that no one ever puts themselves, voluntarily, into the category of "people who should learn some stuff before they go play." Every untrained shooter thinks they know more than they actually know, thinks they can do more than they can actually do, thinks their habits are safer than they actually are, and on and on.

Learn stuff first. Then go play. Use competition for practice on top of a good foundation of actual training.

pax

[Bultaco]

I don't think you have been to IDPA club level matches before. Many of the shooters carry exactly the pistol that they do for CCW. A Glock 19 and many pistols like it are common in those matches. When people go to sanctioned state or region championships there are more "competitive" gear used but not so at club level.
I can't see the huge difference from match ammo which tends to be factory ball and "defensive" ammo either. Gun handling has a lot more to do with practiced dexterity than handling a somewhat higher level of recoil.
We score the best 2 shots on paper or steel when it is knocked down. There is no advantage to being fast but not accurate. One of the things people learn quickly in the scoring method we use is that it is very easy to shoot faster than you can score well. I think this would be useful on the street with accountability for each round fired.
I doubt that you will find much training outside of simunitions that provides the level of fear you want in training. If the idea of peer & timer pressure is too much for people to take I don't see much future for them in a defensive shooting. Being able to have a comparative score forces people to realize their limitations and gives them areas to work on. Many who train alone tend to do what they are best at because it feels good, when they need to work on what they are poor at. Having someone else design a stage makes you display the tools needed to shoot that stage. Be it shooting on the move, moving targets, large or small kill zones, you have to have the ability to modify your speed and accuracy requirements to fit a situation you did not choose. You should try it.

[FireForged]

Gun games are a sport... and although they do mimic "gun-fighting" and do foster gun handling skills.. the strategics, tactics and mindset are very different from those used in a fighting pistol class. I am not saying that they should be the same, it is a game after all. Its just that so many people equate gun-games and tactical training as the same thing. I see them as universes apart.

The old saying goes.. fight like you train not fight like you "game".

I am probably in the minority but I dont carry a gun because I like guns, I dont own guns because of any hobby or interest. I carry a gun for a very singular purpose and that is lawful self defense. Everything that I do that relates to the use of a firearm is to further my SD abilities. I see training simply as a task or chore and not anything I particularly enjoy. I avoid gun games for 2 reasons.. one is that I feel that the high regulated environment only muddies the water in regard to the training I already have and two, I do not believe that "time" (ticking timer) should influence how I do things tactically.

To those who want to participate in gun sports, I say go for it, good luck and I hope you win. If the question is: does comp shooting help in self defense? I think the honest answer is that some aspects of it certainly can help but if SD training is the prioroty, I wouldnt go looking for that within a gun game.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by FireForged

Gun games are a sport... and although they do mimic "gun-fighting" and do foster gun handling skills.. the strategics, tactics and mindset are very different from those used in a fighting pistol class....

Which is exactly why we say the gun games are a useful addition to, not a substitute for, good self defense training.

[pax]

Frank,

I'll go a step further and say that even the gunhandling techniques themselves can be optimized either for the games, or for self defense.

But not both.

That's why I suggest layering competitive practice on top of well-formed defensive handgun training, rather than the reverse.

pax

[zincwarrior]

Phooey!

Frank wins the thread if for no other reason than...phooey!

I'll go a step further and say that even the gunhandling techniques themselves can be optimized either for the games, or for self defense.

Example? (EDIT: this is not a criticism but a question of an example)

[1-DAB]

one more vote here: i compete in IDPA with exactly what i carry day to day. two months ago, it was rather cold, so i wore my insulated leather jacket to the range. and i competed with the same jacket. one stage had a start with your hands in water (cold). yes, you can shoot a gun with wet hands!

if you are out to win matches and prizes, knock yourself out. i'm out to have some fun, try different things under time and space constraints.

and i've learned plenty in the last year or so.

my goals: safety, don't DQ, minimize the mental errors, reduce points down, have fun.

[Bultaco]

Simply getting GOOD with a pistol can be a very positive product of competition. People who are defense oriented might complain about shooting something like an MGM propeller plate rack, but where else do you get a chance to shoot at A zone sized targets moving at varying speeds and directions. It forces you to be able to deliver an accurate shot to a particular place in a very narrow time frame. Same with turn and drops, swingers, running man targets and a number of others. You won't be attacked by a propeller plate rack but you can use the skill to stop an attacking dog or many other scenarios that can occur in the real world. If you stick a no shoot in the middle you are really forced to exercise trigger control while you try to track a moving target like you may see if innocents end up in the same area you are defending yourself or others. It is the skills that I see as valuable. The polished ability with a pistol that you can add to the tactics you have learned from the defensive shooting trainers.

[pax]

Example?

No worries.

One example would be how you hold the gun. Do you hold the gun in a way that optimizes shooting with a relaxed trigger finger, or hold it in a way that optimizes your grip strength on the gun and increases the difficulty of someone else knocking it out of your hand?

Another would be how you choose to get the slide back into battery after a reload. Do you optimize for speed at the expense of 100% reliability when the gun might be dry or dirty? Or do you optimize for reliability while understanding that you'll be giving up a tenth of a second on your reload speed?

pax

[jmhyer]

This happened fairly close to home over the past weekend.

http://kingfish1935.blogspot.com/201...e-shooter.html

I'd venture to say that competition shooting experience was quite helpful in this man's defense of both his life and the life of his wife.

While there's no doubt that situational awareness and other tactics are important (and may well have helped him to avoid the incident altogether), once it comes down to actually having to fire multiple rounds at multiple targets in quick succession, competition experience is definitely a good thing.

[pax]

Too bad he was on his way to a competition. Otherwise, he might have been carrying a loaded gun in a holster on his body, and have been better prepared to deal with business when the encounter first began.

Good for him for solving the problem from behind the curve!

pax

[1-DAB]

another example of always being armed. even running simple errands or loading up your car to head to the range.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by Bultaco

Simply getting GOOD with a pistol can be a very positive product of competition.

+1.

To be honest, I'm appalled at the general skill level I see at the range, even when they're simply standing there casually shooting a non-moving target at close range. And I suspect many (most?) of these shooters think they're well-able to defend themselves in a SD scenario.

Many on gun forums poo poo competition as irrelevant, and for "gamers with fancy gear". They claim they're only interested in "combat accuracy", but, from what I've seen, their "combat accuracy" is casually done plinking speed, and with no regard to drawing, movement, reloads, failure drills, etc. This isn't training for anything - it's just poor shooting at best, and dangerous overconfidence, at worst.

To repeat, gun games aren't SD training, but having a good baseline in shooting skill and gun handling is a good foundation, and many would do well to recognize that. Shoot competitively or not. Whatever. But DO shoot to improve your skills.

[Deaf Smith]

T.,

I specifically use my Glock 26 in the local IDPA matches and even at State matches I just use a Glock 17.

You fail to see not everyone who competes is just a gamer.

Competition has huge benefits for CCW carriers, especially competition like IDPA.

Deaf

[Bultaco]

MrBorland has said many of the things that I did not want to start the thread with. I have been around SOME folks who have taken 3rd. & 4th level classes and still shoot like garbage. I don't blame the instructor. I just see that many of the students get caught up with shooting full sized paper targets at 5-7 yds. and think that keeping all shots in the chest at that distance means they are as good as they will ever need to be.
A friend of mine was a Navy Seal. He told me that they worked like crazy on all forms of shooting with Uncle Sam paying for the ammo. Many tens of thousands of rounds just in pistol, much less full auto weapons. They found that when they got shot back at they had about 50% of the accuracy & technique that they did in training. With that in mind I want to get every bit as good as I can so I still have something left after the 50% reduction.

[FireForged]

Those who have had the occasion to train force on force will likely agree that when you are trying not to get hit.. your tactics and strategies are substantially different from those in shooting sports competition. Its kinda like the kid who has been driving an automatic for a whole year but then takes his drivers test in a manual shift car.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by FireForged

your tactics and strategies are substantially different from those in shooting sports competition.

No one said they weren't. Yet again, we repeat: Gun games aren't SD training. If you want & need SD training, get it. But build upon a solid foundation of shooting and gun handling skills. Competition is one way to get that foundation.

[Jim Watson]

It is impossible to argue against formal training, but unless you have a lot of time, money, and interest, it has a trap.
It is all to easy to assume that if one takes a training course, he is Trained. Retraining is expensive. Continuing practice in the school doctrine is difficult to stick with. Even if you do, how do you know you are still Doing It Right without a qualified critic?

I have seen it many times; people assume that a single or few training sessions makes them proficient. They are usually wrong.
Competition can keep up the physical skills, but "tactics" are still up to you to maintain.

Of course if you are high end military or police for whom regular retraining and grading are both a job perk and a condition of employment, the question does not arise.

[pax]

If you want & need SD training, get it. But build upon a solid foundation of shooting and gun handling skills. Competition is one way to get that foundation.

I'd say it's the other way around.

Build the foundation first -- via qualified training -- then go practice and refine your speed/smoothness within a competitive environment.

Competition is no place to learn the basics. It's just a good place to practice.

pax

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'll chime in. IDPA for me, is the only venue for monthly practice at different distances, movement, etc. It gives practice in the reload and clearance (yes, guns jam). The scenarios are not that realistic - but it is a skill practice for the draw and things like that.

I use my carry holster, and one of my carry guns. I do not optimize to win (as I won't being a FOG now). I shoot one of my bugs on occasion.

As mentioned by my colleagues, this is practiced layered on topic of a good deal of defensive handgun training, including a good deal of FOF.

My motor memory for the draw, reloads, clearance, holstering, etc. - can't get that at the square range.

I do not have Dunning-grandiose syndrome. I find little of that with the folks I shoot with.

I agree that optimizing for the game (an IPSC flaw - ducking) is silly if you argue for SD practice. For example, I shoot with my everyday glasses. I know folks who get specific IPSC or IDPA lenses made. Nope - I go with what I wear.

For data - we don't have anything but anecdotes to make a definitive statement as to whether a high end competitor bit the dust because of this or that. Yep, maybe in South Bumdump, a person waited for the buzzer before defending the family. But so what.