Question about carrying - Page 2

curmudgeon1 · November 4, 2007, 01:31 AM

quote:
".... avoiding situations that can leave you vulnerable ........."
I guess the mass exodus from the nation's big cities would validate that strategy. (fleeing anarchy ?)

DWARREN123 · November 4, 2007, 05:04 AM

Draw only when you have to use it, use it to stop the attack. Do not shoot to kill, injure or frighten only to stop an attack.

Para Bellum · November 4, 2007, 05:20 AM

very controversial subject, but:

I have seen warning shots (into the ground, never into the air!) work very well and I have seen drawing a gun and just waiting, pointing the muzzle down working. You sometimes can use a gun to avoid hurting or killing.

I don't agree to the general rule, "don't draw until you shoot somebody". Sometimes a warning shot or just holding the gun ready in your hands (not brandishin, just having it in your hands and waiting for how the situation turns out) are good tactics.

Trutech74 · November 4, 2007, 12:37 PM

Thats sort of what I was thinking. Because I am guessing that the odds are in favor of, if someone decides to attack you, that if they see you pull out or show a gun they will probably back off and leave. I don't know if thats really how it would be, but If i were to wanna jump someone as soon as I saw a gun I'd get the hell outta there.

hogdogs · November 4, 2007, 12:59 PM

When I carried concealed or even unconcealed I was not a permit holder. I woulda took my swats for that had I needed to defend myself or someone else.
With that said, If I brandish ANY firearm in ANY location it will be ONLY to STOP a threat. It is going to go from concealed, stored etc. to ready, aimed and fired in one motion! The decision to shoot will already have been made prior to grabbing the gun! If the person would have been frightened off by my gun and ran off we will never know! I do not believe in warning shots for 3 reasons... first it is dangerous to fire at anything but YOUR INTENDED TARGET, second is that I ain't in the business of wasting money on ammo, last I am down one round if I need my weapon to save my life or that of another LAW ABIDING citizen. Guns and the drawing of one is not to scare anyone into submission it is to STOP THE THREAT... and STOP IT I will!
I do not feel I have to grant alot of respect to a felon law breaker and anyone that threatens me or someone else enuff for me to draw a weapon of any type is commiting a felony crime!
Brent

Tanzer · November 4, 2007, 04:33 PM

I don't know, hogdogs. I see what you're saying, but I've got to fall just short of "definitely will" shoot. Quite some time ago, I told of an incident I had on TFL. This guy WAS a threat, and WAS holding a weapon, though I couldn't tell exactly what it was in the dim light. I sure wasn't going to ask. I brandished my firearm when all else failed. I definitely would have used it had he not very quickly changed his tune, but change it he did, and I am VERY GLAD he did. In the end, brandishing worked, but I DID NOT brandish it with the intention of scaring him, it was to use it. It was a fortunate side effect that kept me out of trouble. BTW, he did not see it and run, in fact he seemed at first to get angry, but he backed off (good sign #1), then he grumbled, stomped & swore a bit, but then he LEFT - the best possible outcome.
My point is, had I not given him those very few short second to reconsider, I'd now be still tangled up in a legal hell, having put several .45 Hydrashocks into the SOB. That was coming in about 2.5 seconds. I believe there are instances where brandishing is effective, but I agree not to brandish just because you think it might scare them off.

Creature · November 4, 2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Pretty much...never pull your gun unless you are both willing to pull the trigger and have reason to believe you would have just cause in doing so. That being said, do not fall into tthe old trap of the "if you pull it, shoot it" mentality. That is one the dumbest things in the world. If you pull it and the bad guy with a machette stops in his tracks and turns tail and runs put the gun away and call the police.

This sums it the best and is the best advice I have read so far in this thread. It is, in a nutshell, all you are going to have time to keep in mind when your life is in danger.

Thanks for the on point and succinct post, playboy..

hogdogs · November 4, 2007, 05:29 PM

When I carried it was a ruger P-85 (i know this dates me a bit)... My personal training practice was to flip safety as it was drawn. The "few seconds" you mention that gave the BG time to reconsider are not something I will offer! If someone pulls a gun on me while i am unarmed I will try to call their bluff and play a defensive game of chicken knowing that most folks are not ready to be rushed when they brandish any weapon... I will flat go ape-crap on them! I ain't gonna pull a gun on a "THREAT" that may have the same plan. My attacker will not know I am armed until he feels it burn.
I do agree with just about everything in the thread... I will NEVER pull a gun for less than life saving defense but I am pretty quick at target acquisition and intend to STOP a threat... now if a BG sees my draw as more than a bluff and turns before I fire, I will not shoot him in the back! I will not verbally warn anyone that I am armed. If they intend to harm me or someone else without warning I will not warn them! If they verbally state their intent, the most they get from me is "DON'T BE STUPID A-HOLE!"... I was taught to keep my abilities and weapons private until forced to make them public record...
Brent

sw_florida · November 4, 2007, 07:10 PM

Each case is juged individually, and so is the case in the initial question, about some one drawing a gun on you because you drew first.

If I have to draw my gun on a person it's because the person is coming at me with criminal violence on his mind. Should the aggressor at that point begin to draw a gun on me, that would just further prove to me the fact that he had bad intentions to begin with. He could back down if he wanted to. I would shoot to kill if he was trying to fish for whatever. Now, a similar situation, where a person draws a gun on some one and that second person responds by drawing his gun, could be a situation of overly anxiousness from the first drawer. The first drawer could be over-reacting or misreading the situation of attack compleatly. Morally and legally the first drawer can not kill the second person if the second person is trying to just defend himself by showing and pointing his gun.

I don't buy into the talk about a one-man attack not being enough for deadly self defense in response. As I see it, any person who attacks a good-natured calm person like me is a complete maniac, and a maniac is capable of anything once he has me knocked down on the ground. Must I trust that the maniac doesn't stomp on my head once he has me knocked down? I rather shoot first than becomming a vegetable. The attacker was wrong from the start. A seemingly unarmed attacker would however enjoy a first spoken warning by me as I was pointing my gun to his chest. Should he not choose to leave me alone at that point but proceed with his attack, I would shoot to kill. An armed attacker would probably not enjoy a warning first, as too little time is all I have on my side.

thehunterman · November 4, 2007, 07:12 PM

[QUOTE]
One thing I keep in mind: as problematic as they may seem abstractly, the chances of any potential lethal encounter are very slim to begin with , and I believe, out of those, when a CCW pulls their gun the BG flees 80% of the time. That leaves a very, very, very slim chance you will both have to shoot AND make a mistake. On top of that, I think most SD shootings, when they do happen, are "clean", there are not mistakes, (although I don't have stats for that).

In other words, this will likely always stay an abstract problem. To balance the small potential negative that it won't, is the much greater chance you will have more ease of mind when around dangerous environments, and if something does happen you will likely escape, either because the instigator fled, or is shot - and shot justifiably. On that basis, I chose to carry, in the specific circumstances when I am increased danger: for me, that is on foot, alone, at night.

And the rest: I tell myself: "Act in any encounter exactly the same as you would have before you had a CCW, unless it is overwhemingly clear you are going to be killed/seriously injured NOW. Then, save your life with what's available". (And I go to the range a lot.). What else can you do in life? Ultimately, you take your chances with anything you choose, driving, running (heart-attack), swimming, flying in an airplane.... If the reward outweighs the risk, take your shots and hope for the best from the fates.

If you try ccw, and it's a source of continual fear over what could happen, then fine, it's not for you. For me, I feel easier than I used to, so it works. Keep it simple./QUOTE]

I think that we all need to take a sec and read the post from GVF again and again. I carry because I want to carry. I carry, not intending on having to save my life of that of one of my family, but hopefully I have the training to handle such a situation. But, I also hope that even while not armed I have the training to save my life even if it is simply by outrunning the BG. I dont have the stats but I am betting that during the lifetime of a CCW they will never have to use their gun to fight for their life or the life of someone they are trying to protect. I love to read these postings and see the number of people giving advice on how to handle themselves in a life and death situation. I would bet that very few of these individuals actually have the "first" hand experience (I dont either). Most police officers dont even have this type of experience and they are being paid to put themselves in bad situation after bad situation. All we are doing is picking up the kids and getting some KFC. I know that some of these posters do have first hand knowledge and they should be respected for trying to help us better understand what we might face.

All I am trying to say is if when you pull your gun and the BG runs away (armed or not) then job well done. He more than likely will not be running to the police to tell them you have a gun and you were a bad boy and pulled it out even though he did not threaten to kill you. On the off chance that when the gun is pulled and he walks over and sticks his finger in the barrel, you dont have time to think about what kind of man you are, you should already know that while the gun is in the sock.

allenomics · November 4, 2007, 07:38 PM

It's not legal to brandish a gun in Florida.

thehunterman · November 4, 2007, 07:45 PM

Quote:

It's not legal to brandish a gun in Florida.

Hopefully it is not the DA that is trying to strongarm you!

RAS-8533 · November 5, 2007, 12:25 AM

What about making a citizens arest?

hogdogs · November 6, 2007, 10:02 AM

LEGAL DISCLAIMER... DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THIS!
It was a few years back when a deputy told me that IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, a citizen has the right to "Hold with force if necessary, any person committing a felony crime..." I tried to hold a crackhead (obviously selling rock in Daytona Beach) but a bystander coming to help me screaming distracted me long enough for the little weasel to scoot. I was armed with only my pig sticking buck knife and it was open and brandished! Yes I was trying to be a vigilante but that word in english is VIGILANT and I was damn tired of crack deals being commited in public including in front of my house and also tired of being flagged down to be asked if I wanted to buy crack! Possession of crack is a felony and dealing is higher level. It was the high crime level of that area that made me decide to move to the boonies where I now reside!
Here is a little report about the county I NOW reside in... I feel these numbers are lower than anywhere I have ever lived...
In Walton County, the crime rate of crimes per 100,000 people was down by 29.2 percent from 2005. The index crimes of murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and larceny were all down in Walton County. In Walton County in 2006, there were two murders (down from three in 2005), six forcible rapes (down from 11 in 2005), two robberies (down from 13 in 2005), 109 aggravated assaults (down from 247 in 2005), 180 burglaries (down from 264 in 2005), and 659 larcenies (down from 792 in 2005). Only motor vehicle theft - also an index crime - showed a slight increase, up to 80 reported incidents from 77 reported in 2005 in Walton County.
Statewide, the rate of all of the above-listed index crimes was up, except for forcible sex offenses, which decreased statewide by 5.4 percent from 2005. Statewide domestic violence was down by 4.3 percent from 2005.
The above figures are based on reported offenses. The report was made based on information submitted by 410 of the 416 local, county and state law enforcement agencies, serving approximately 99.9 percent of the state’s population.
Brent

sw_florida · November 6, 2007, 10:11 AM

What does 'the boonies' mean?

MEDDAC19 · November 6, 2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

What does 'the boonies' mean?

It is a term like, "the sticks" or "the bush", and refers to very rural areas.

hogdogs · November 6, 2007, 10:25 AM

The boonies=BOONDOCKS and is any location of very rural country type place. A place where pickups out way cars hands down, My def. I lived in the central florida area for over 18 years and had plenty of crime in each location. I was sick and tired of petty thefts from my yard (some were grand theft value) tired of my 2 kids having to walk to school past drug dealers. Momma always worried my daughter would be victimized and son lured into participating in drug use etc. My friends fell into crack use and had to be banned from being at my place as i did not need to worry about them ripping me off or the cops raiding in on me thinking I was involved with drugs. police choppers waking me up regularly following high speed perps.
Where I now live is 5 miles from town and if we hear a siren it is the Volunteer fire department responding to a fire are car crash and that is RARE! Sure we got some meth here (some of the fires are meth lab fires) but little related crime. It is funny how many cars have the keys left in the ignition or floorboard at the stores. BTW, they still give kids "swats" in the K-12 public school!!!
Brent

Bama Rifleman · November 9, 2007, 01:53 PM

It's all been said above. My position is to never pull my weapon unless I intend to shoot; and shoot to kill. You had better have this mind set or some BG will take you weapon away from you a then you are in real BAD trouble!! Plain and simple!

**JohnKSa** · November 9, 2007, 09:43 PM

Quote:

My position is to never pull my weapon unless I intend to shoot; and shoot to kill.

It's recommended that you indicate you plan to shoot to stop the attack. Killing isn't the goal of using deadly force in self-defense although it can be a side effect.

The life or death of the attacker should be of no consequence to the defender as his priority and focus should be directed toward stopping the attack. Some argue that this is merely semantics, but as they say, what you say can and will be used against you.

rem870hunter · November 13, 2007, 10:46 AM

i live in southern nj. a permit to carry a firearm here is really tough to get. basically if you don't carry a badge you can't carry a firearm. you can own and transport them to and from hunting grounds or target ranges, gun shops. but as far carrying a firearm i would if permitted with out all the b.s. . i don't have a badge. i can however defend my person and personal property. bascially meaning my home and family at home. what i was told by a local police officer if someone breaks into your home whether they are armed or not. you must let them know
1. you are armed.
2.drop what you have and you/they must leave now.

you must give them the option of leaving peacefully. if they do not leave and they corner you. and cause bodily harm. you have the right to fire. pretty much let them hit you with something or shoot first. or slash or stab you. then your alowed to fire. i say its my home and my property and i will do what i wish. i can and will defend it till i am dead. if i had to fire on a burglar so be it. they don't belong in my house. i had read to many paper articles and seen enough news on the internet. of people being shot or stabbed to death in their own home. morons out there breaking into 70 and 80 year olds homes and beating them up or killing them. for 50 bucks. or whatever. i say if they want my money and or valuables which i don't have much of. they can have it. they can get it courtesy of express on the end of a 1 oz. slug .

on the street it is definetly different. i would not pull unless i was ready to fire. if i saw a gun or knife in their hands that would be grounds enough for me to pull. if they struck me i would warn them as i was pulling that i am armed and to back up and leave. maybe i was a victim of an assault at age 17. 6 15 year olds jumped out of a blazer surrounded me. yelling im gonna kick yer ass. and 2 of them had their hands down in the front of their jeans saying you wanna get popped. you wanna get popped <expletive deleted>. none of they pulled as far as i know. they thought i was my cousin who was running his mouth 10 minutes beforehand to them. i had no clue who any of them were. i did'nt care. they had the wrong guy.

1 of them hit me in the head from behind. as i fell forward another 1 hit me in the ribs. the 1 i fell forward into grabbed me up. i managed to turn away when he did and the first 1 that came into my sight i kicked as hard as could dead square in the groin. i swore i broke a few toes but he went down . the others grabbed him up and headed back to the blazer they got out of. the guy across the street whos dad is a retired twp. cop. heard the shouting and saw this. he came out jumped in his car and followed them far enough to get a tag number. the driver was tracked down and he turned in the guys. 3 admitted to hitting me. one of them was the one i kicked in groin. i aparrently kicked him hard enough that he had to have his nuts removed. i broke them.

user · November 24, 2007, 05:36 PM

Remember that "defense of self or others" is a DEFENSE to a charge of manslaughter or murder. One might prefer not to be in a position to be tried for a crime at all, even if one has a really good defense (assuming the jury will buy it). But the kicker is the immediacy of the threat. An "emergency" (used as a technical legal term) is "an immediate threat to life, limb, or property". If there's no emergency, you don't need to pull your gun out. If you do so just to intimidate someone, you can be charged with anything from brandishing a firearm to assault with a deadly weapon. ("Assault" means an unpriviliged, unjustified, and unexcused offer or attempt to touch the person of another in an offensive manner. It does not require contact.) You pull out your gun, and the cop who sees you do it will be justified in shooting you.

On the other hand, "emergency" does not require the presence of a firearm. Just keep in mind the principle that twelve of your good, loyal, honest, and true neighbors are going to decide whether what you did was reasonable under the circumstances, or whether you should spend the next twenty years eating bologna sandwiches for lunch at state expense.

Jay1958 · November 26, 2007, 11:12 PM

I agree with you 100%, JohnKSa!

An armed citizen should NEVER "shoot to kill"! Rather, an armed citizen should "shoot to live" or so that another potential victim may live.

Never "shoot to kill". Shoot to neutralize the imminent threat of loss of life or the imminent threat of grievous bodily harm. As someone mentioned previously, lethal force is also justified by the imminent threat of rape or felonious sexual assault.

When the imminent threat of loss of life or greivous bodily harm is past, the armed citizen must immediately cease the use of lethal force as defense.

As JohnKSa mentioned, what you say can and will be used against you!

November 4, 2007, 05:04 AM	#27
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	Draw only when you have to use it, use it to stop the attack. Do not shoot to kill, injure or frighten only to stop an attack. __________________ Have a nice day!

November 4, 2007, 05:20 AM	#28
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	You sometimes can use a gun to avoid hurting or killing. very controversial subject, but: I have seen warning shots (into the ground, never into the air!) work very well and I have seen drawing a gun and just waiting, pointing the muzzle down working. You sometimes can use a gun to avoid hurting or killing. I don't agree to the general rule, "don't draw until you shoot somebody". Sometimes a warning shot or just holding the gun ready in your hands (not brandishin, just having it in your hands and waiting for how the situation turns out) are good tactics. __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

November 4, 2007, 04:33 PM	#31
Tanzer Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Posts: 884	I don't know, hogdogs. I see what you're saying, but I've got to fall just short of "definitely will" shoot. Quite some time ago, I told of an incident I had on TFL. This guy WAS a threat, and WAS holding a weapon, though I couldn't tell exactly what it was in the dim light. I sure wasn't going to ask. I brandished my firearm when all else failed. I definitely would have used it had he not very quickly changed his tune, but change it he did, and I am VERY GLAD he did. In the end, brandishing worked, but I DID NOT brandish it with the intention of scaring him, it was to use it. It was a fortunate side effect that kept me out of trouble. BTW, he did not see it and run, in fact he seemed at first to get angry, but he backed off (good sign #1), then he grumbled, stomped & swore a bit, but then he LEFT - the best possible outcome. My point is, had I not given him those very few short second to reconsider, I'd now be still tangled up in a legal hell, having put several .45 Hydrashocks into the SOB. That was coming in about 2.5 seconds. I believe there are instances where brandishing is effective, but I agree not to brandish just because you think it might scare them off. __________________ Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.

November 4, 2007, 07:38 PM	#36
allenomics Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Posts: 1,536	It's not legal to brandish a gun in Florida. __________________ NRA Benefactor Life Member Knowledge is not power. Applied knowledge is power!

November 9, 2007, 01:53 PM	#43
Bama Rifleman Junior Member Join Date: November 7, 2007 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 10	It's all been said above. My position is to never pull my weapon unless I intend to shoot; and shoot to kill. You had better have this mind set or some BG will take you weapon away from you a then you are in real BAD trouble!! Plain and simple! __________________ Buel Adams, US Air Force Retired The 2nd Amendment guarantees the *RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Don't try to BS me and tell me otherwise!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!*

November 4, 2007, 01:31 AM	#26
curmudgeon1 Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: n.e. ohio Posts: 544	quote: ".... avoiding situations that can leave you vulnerable ........." I guess the mass exodus from the nation's big cities would validate that strategy. (fleeing anarchy ?)

November 4, 2007, 12:37 PM	#29
Trutech74 Member Join Date: October 31, 2007 Posts: 30	Thats sort of what I was thinking. Because I am guessing that the odds are in favor of, if someone decides to attack you, that if they see you pull out or show a gun they will probably back off and leave. I don't know if thats really how it would be, but If i were to wanna jump someone as soon as I saw a gun I'd get the hell outta there.

November 4, 2007, 12:59 PM	#30
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	When I carried concealed or even unconcealed I was not a permit holder. I woulda took my swats for that had I needed to defend myself or someone else. With that said, If I brandish ANY firearm in ANY location it will be ONLY to STOP a threat. It is going to go from concealed, stored etc. to ready, aimed and fired in one motion! The decision to shoot will already have been made prior to grabbing the gun! If the person would have been frightened off by my gun and ran off we will never know! I do not believe in warning shots for 3 reasons... first it is dangerous to fire at anything but YOUR INTENDED TARGET, second is that I ain't in the business of wasting money on ammo, last I am down one round if I need my weapon to save my life or that of another LAW ABIDING citizen. Guns and the drawing of one is not to scare anyone into submission it is to STOP THE THREAT... and STOP IT I will! I do not feel I have to grant alot of respect to a felon law breaker and anyone that threatens me or someone else enuff for me to draw a weapon of any type is commiting a felony crime! Brent

November 4, 2007, 05:29 PM	#33
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	When I carried it was a ruger P-85 (i know this dates me a bit)... My personal training practice was to flip safety as it was drawn. The "few seconds" you mention that gave the BG time to reconsider are not something I will offer! If someone pulls a gun on me while i am unarmed I will try to call their bluff and play a defensive game of chicken knowing that most folks are not ready to be rushed when they brandish any weapon... I will flat go ape-crap on them! I ain't gonna pull a gun on a "THREAT" that may have the same plan. My attacker will not know I am armed until he feels it burn. I do agree with just about everything in the thread... I will NEVER pull a gun for less than life saving defense but I am pretty quick at target acquisition and intend to STOP a threat... now if a BG sees my draw as more than a bluff and turns before I fire, I will not shoot him in the back! I will not verbally warn anyone that I am armed. If they intend to harm me or someone else without warning I will not warn them! If they verbally state their intent, the most they get from me is "DON'T BE STUPID A-HOLE!"... I was taught to keep my abilities and weapons private until forced to make them public record... Brent

November 4, 2007, 07:10 PM	#34
sw_florida Junior member Join Date: April 28, 2007 Location: In the shadow Posts: 526	Each case is juged individually, and so is the case in the initial question, about some one drawing a gun on you because you drew first. If I have to draw my gun on a person it's because the person is coming at me with criminal violence on his mind. Should the aggressor at that point begin to draw a gun on me, that would just further prove to me the fact that he had bad intentions to begin with. He could back down if he wanted to. I would shoot to kill if he was trying to fish for whatever. Now, a similar situation, where a person draws a gun on some one and that second person responds by drawing his gun, could be a situation of overly anxiousness from the first drawer. The first drawer could be over-reacting or misreading the situation of attack compleatly. Morally and legally the first drawer can not kill the second person if the second person is trying to just defend himself by showing and pointing his gun. I don't buy into the talk about a one-man attack not being enough for deadly self defense in response. As I see it, any person who attacks a good-natured calm person like me is a complete maniac, and a maniac is capable of anything once he has me knocked down on the ground. Must I trust that the maniac doesn't stomp on my head once he has me knocked down? I rather shoot first than becomming a vegetable. The attacker was wrong from the start. A seemingly unarmed attacker would however enjoy a first spoken warning by me as I was pointing my gun to his chest. Should he not choose to leave me alone at that point but proceed with his attack, I would shoot to kill. An armed attacker would probably not enjoy a warning first, as too little time is all I have on my side.

November 4, 2007, 07:12 PM	#35
thehunterman Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Lakeland, Florida Posts: 25	[QUOTE] One thing I keep in mind: as problematic as they may seem abstractly, the chances of any potential lethal encounter are very slim to begin with , and I believe, out of those, when a CCW pulls their gun the BG flees 80% of the time. That leaves a very, very, very slim chance you will both have to shoot AND make a mistake. On top of that, I think most SD shootings, when they do happen, are "clean", there are not mistakes, (although I don't have stats for that). In other words, this will likely always stay an abstract problem. To balance the small potential negative that it won't, is the much greater chance you will have more ease of mind when around dangerous environments, and if something does happen you will likely escape, either because the instigator fled, or is shot - and shot justifiably. On that basis, I chose to carry, in the specific circumstances when I am increased danger: for me, that is on foot, alone, at night. And the rest: I tell myself: "Act in any encounter exactly the same as you would have before you had a CCW, unless it is overwhemingly clear you are going to be killed/seriously injured NOW. Then, save your life with what's available". (And I go to the range a lot.). What else can you do in life? Ultimately, you take your chances with anything you choose, driving, running (heart-attack), swimming, flying in an airplane.... If the reward outweighs the risk, take your shots and hope for the best from the fates. If you try ccw, and it's a source of continual fear over what could happen, then fine, it's not for you. For me, I feel easier than I used to, so it works. Keep it simple./QUOTE] I think that we all need to take a sec and read the post from GVF again and again. I carry because I want to carry. I carry, not intending on having to save my life of that of one of my family, but hopefully I have the training to handle such a situation. But, I also hope that even while not armed I have the training to save my life even if it is simply by outrunning the BG. I dont have the stats but I am betting that during the lifetime of a CCW they will never have to use their gun to fight for their life or the life of someone they are trying to protect. I love to read these postings and see the number of people giving advice on how to handle themselves in a life and death situation. I would bet that very few of these individuals actually have the "first" hand experience (I dont either). Most police officers dont even have this type of experience and they are being paid to put themselves in bad situation after bad situation. All we are doing is picking up the kids and getting some KFC. I know that some of these posters do have first hand knowledge and they should be respected for trying to help us better understand what we might face. All I am trying to say is if when you pull your gun and the BG runs away (armed or not) then job well done. He more than likely will not be running to the police to tell them you have a gun and you were a bad boy and pulled it out even though he did not threaten to kill you. On the off chance that when the gun is pulled and he walks over and sticks his finger in the barrel, you dont have time to think about what kind of man you are, you should already know that while the gun is in the sock.

November 5, 2007, 12:25 AM	#38
RAS-8533 Junior Member Join Date: November 5, 2007 Posts: 1	What about making a citizens arest?

November 6, 2007, 10:02 AM	#39
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	LEGAL DISCLAIMER... DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THIS! It was a few years back when a deputy told me that IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, a citizen has the right to "Hold with force if necessary, any person committing a felony crime..." I tried to hold a crackhead (obviously selling rock in Daytona Beach) but a bystander coming to help me screaming distracted me long enough for the little weasel to scoot. I was armed with only my pig sticking buck knife and it was open and brandished! Yes I was trying to be a vigilante but that word in english is VIGILANT and I was damn tired of crack deals being commited in public including in front of my house and also tired of being flagged down to be asked if I wanted to buy crack! Possession of crack is a felony and dealing is higher level. It was the high crime level of that area that made me decide to move to the boonies where I now reside! Here is a little report about the county I NOW reside in... I feel these numbers are lower than anywhere I have ever lived... In Walton County, the crime rate of crimes per 100,000 people was down by 29.2 percent from 2005. The index crimes of murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and larceny were all down in Walton County. In Walton County in 2006, there were two murders (down from three in 2005), six forcible rapes (down from 11 in 2005), two robberies (down from 13 in 2005), 109 aggravated assaults (down from 247 in 2005), 180 burglaries (down from 264 in 2005), and 659 larcenies (down from 792 in 2005). Only motor vehicle theft - also an index crime - showed a slight increase, up to 80 reported incidents from 77 reported in 2005 in Walton County. Statewide, the rate of all of the above-listed index crimes was up, except for forcible sex offenses, which decreased statewide by 5.4 percent from 2005. Statewide domestic violence was down by 4.3 percent from 2005. The above figures are based on reported offenses. The report was made based on information submitted by 410 of the 416 local, county and state law enforcement agencies, serving approximately 99.9 percent of the state’s population. Brent

November 6, 2007, 10:11 AM	#40
sw_florida Junior member Join Date: April 28, 2007 Location: In the shadow Posts: 526	What does 'the boonies' mean?

November 6, 2007, 10:25 AM	#42
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	The boonies=BOONDOCKS and is any location of very rural country type place. A place where pickups out way cars hands down, My def. I lived in the central florida area for over 18 years and had plenty of crime in each location. I was sick and tired of petty thefts from my yard (some were grand theft value) tired of my 2 kids having to walk to school past drug dealers. Momma always worried my daughter would be victimized and son lured into participating in drug use etc. My friends fell into crack use and had to be banned from being at my place as i did not need to worry about them ripping me off or the cops raiding in on me thinking I was involved with drugs. police choppers waking me up regularly following high speed perps. Where I now live is 5 miles from town and if we hear a siren it is the Volunteer fire department responding to a fire are car crash and that is RARE! Sure we got some meth here (some of the fires are meth lab fires) but little related crime. It is funny how many cars have the keys left in the ignition or floorboard at the stores. BTW, they still give kids "swats" in the K-12 public school!!! Brent

November 13, 2007, 10:46 AM	#45
rem870hunter Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2007 Location: N.J. and trying to decide what state to move to. Posts: 973	i live in southern nj. a permit to carry a firearm here is really tough to get. basically if you don't carry a badge you can't carry a firearm. you can own and transport them to and from hunting grounds or target ranges, gun shops. but as far carrying a firearm i would if permitted with out all the b.s. . i don't have a badge. i can however defend my person and personal property. bascially meaning my home and family at home. what i was told by a local police officer if someone breaks into your home whether they are armed or not. you must let them know 1. you are armed. 2.drop what you have and you/they must leave now. you must give them the option of leaving peacefully. if they do not leave and they corner you. and cause bodily harm. you have the right to fire. pretty much let them hit you with something or shoot first. or slash or stab you. then your alowed to fire. i say its my home and my property and i will do what i wish. i can and will defend it till i am dead. if i had to fire on a burglar so be it. they don't belong in my house. i had read to many paper articles and seen enough news on the internet. of people being shot or stabbed to death in their own home. morons out there breaking into 70 and 80 year olds homes and beating them up or killing them. for 50 bucks. or whatever. i say if they want my money and or valuables which i don't have much of. they can have it. they can get it courtesy of express on the end of a 1 oz. slug . on the street it is definetly different. i would not pull unless i was ready to fire. if i saw a gun or knife in their hands that would be grounds enough for me to pull. if they struck me i would warn them as i was pulling that i am armed and to back up and leave. maybe i was a victim of an assault at age 17. 6 15 year olds jumped out of a blazer surrounded me. yelling im gonna kick yer ass. and 2 of them had their hands down in the front of their jeans saying you wanna get popped. you wanna get popped <expletive deleted>. none of they pulled as far as i know. they thought i was my cousin who was running his mouth 10 minutes beforehand to them. i had no clue who any of them were. i did'nt care. they had the wrong guy. 1 of them hit me in the head from behind. as i fell forward another 1 hit me in the ribs. the 1 i fell forward into grabbed me up. i managed to turn away when he did and the first 1 that came into my sight i kicked as hard as could dead square in the groin. i swore i broke a few toes but he went down . the others grabbed him up and headed back to the blazer they got out of. the guy across the street whos dad is a retired twp. cop. heard the shouting and saw this. he came out jumped in his car and followed them far enough to get a tag number. the driver was tracked down and he turned in the guys. 3 admitted to hitting me. one of them was the one i kicked in groin. i aparrently kicked him hard enough that he had to have his nuts removed. i broke them.

November 24, 2007, 05:36 PM	#46
user Member Join Date: November 24, 2007 Posts: 25	the kicker Remember that "defense of self or others" is a DEFENSE to a charge of manslaughter or murder. One might prefer not to be in a position to be tried for a crime at all, even if one has a really good defense (assuming the jury will buy it). But the kicker is the immediacy of the threat. An "emergency" (used as a technical legal term) is "an immediate threat to life, limb, or property". If there's no emergency, you don't need to pull your gun out. If you do so just to intimidate someone, you can be charged with anything from brandishing a firearm to assault with a deadly weapon. ("Assault" means an unpriviliged, unjustified, and unexcused offer or attempt to touch the person of another in an offensive manner. It does not require contact.) You pull out your gun, and the cop who sees you do it will be justified in shooting you. On the other hand, "emergency" does not require the presence of a firearm. Just keep in mind the principle that twelve of your good, loyal, honest, and true neighbors are going to decide whether what you did was reasonable under the circumstances, or whether you should spend the next twenty years eating bologna sandwiches for lunch at state expense.

November 26, 2007, 11:12 PM	#47
Jay1958 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 274	I agree with you 100%, JohnKSa! An armed citizen should NEVER "shoot to kill"! Rather, an armed citizen should "shoot to live" or so that another potential victim may live. Never "shoot to kill". Shoot to neutralize the imminent threat of loss of life or the imminent threat of grievous bodily harm. As someone mentioned previously, lethal force is also justified by the imminent threat of rape or felonious sexual assault. When the imminent threat of loss of life or greivous bodily harm is past, the armed citizen must immediately cease the use of lethal force as defense. As JohnKSa mentioned, what you say can and will be used against you!