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Old August 9, 2011, 08:55 PM   #1
THECOACH
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chrysanthemum marked Japanese rifle??

I have had an old rifle for years now and would like to find out exactly what it is. I cannot find any photos that are like it on-line. I looks to a japanese rifle. It has a very short stock, and some japanese lettering opposite of the bolt slot(left hand side). It has a chrysanthemum marking on top of the barrel, and looks to have the name or initials carved in the stock. Can any one help me out with any leads or who i can talk to about this rifle?
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Old August 9, 2011, 09:38 PM   #2
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I do know that Arisaka rifles (what you have) are worth more with the "mum" on them. That is the extent of my knowledge. Also rusty guns make me sad.
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Old August 9, 2011, 10:07 PM   #3
chris in va
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Can you take a picture of the whole rifle, preferably from an angle between the top and side?
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Old August 9, 2011, 10:19 PM   #4
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Can't tell you what it is, until/unless I find the right book, which is buried around here somewhere.

I can tell you what it is NOT, it is NOT one of the Arisaka service rifles issued to Japanese troops during WWII. It is tough to tell from the pics, but based on the position of the bolt handle, and the shape of the cocking piece, it is not a type 38 (6.5mm) or type 99 (7.7mm) that were the WWII service rifles.

It could be a dummy, or a drill rifle, or a training rifle. Possibly the pre type 38 service rifle, but can't begin to tell until I find the right reference.

It is a Japanese military rifle (the crest), but which one I cannot tell right now. Only that it is not the WWII service rifle commonly called the "Arisaka".

It might have been designed by Col Arisaka, and if it was, then technically it is an Arisaka, but it isn't one of the ones we usually see. I have a few of those, and that rifle isn't it.

I'll keep looking, and if I find any info, will let you know.

Can you estimate the caliber (bore size)?
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Old August 9, 2011, 11:34 PM   #5
CLC
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Could it be a Murata Type 18 (M.1885)? I think some nor pictures could help.
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Old August 9, 2011, 11:42 PM   #6
Jim Watson
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Ah, so.
CLC is right, you show honorable Type 18 (1885) Murata rifle, caliber 11mmx60R.
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Old August 10, 2011, 06:29 AM   #7
Mike Irwin
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That's definitely a Murata Type 18.

The flat-top receiver, the flat-top barrel extension, and the bolt handle are dead give aways.

Here's a good page on Muratas - http://members.shaw.ca/ursacki/muratarifles.htm

The Murata Type 18 was Japan's first small-caliber (8mm) smokeless powder rifle.
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Old August 10, 2011, 08:14 AM   #8
Jim Watson
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Your link (and others) says the Type 18 was 11mm; the 8mm coming in with the Type 22 repeater.

I wonder about a single shot bolt action like the Type 13 and 18 Murata, the 1871 Mauser, and similar. I would expect a Rolling Block or a Martini (or Werder Lightning, etc.) to maintain a higher rate of fire.
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Old August 10, 2011, 08:46 AM   #9
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Jim, bolt actions might be a fraction slower but are more reliable in the extraction process. Also, rate of fire was not a primary concern since military thinking was still dominated by the idea of volley fire. So it was more important to have 95% of people ready to fire a volley every 6 sec than the fastest 10% achieving a shot every 3 sec.
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Old August 10, 2011, 09:30 AM   #10
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"Your link (and others) says the Type 18 was 11mm;"

Damn it. I should have read my link. I thought the Type 18 was the first 8mm.

Of course it wasn't... The French didn't come out with the Lebel in 8mm and smokeless powder until 1886.
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Old August 10, 2011, 02:33 PM   #11
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Thank you, I will clean it up and take some more photos to post. Yall are awesome.
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Old August 12, 2011, 10:33 AM   #12
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I'm not sure what the branded 165 means on the stock, but it's pre-Arisaka for sure.
I believe the guys that say Murata.
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Old August 12, 2011, 12:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
Thank you, I will clean it up and take some more photos to post. Yall are awesome.
As the other posters said its a Type 18 Murata.(m1885) These rifle were used by Imperial Japan as late as the Russo Japanese war which ended in 1905. If you're going to clean it be very careful and just use oil and brass wool to remove the rust. Here is a link to one I found for sale online: http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=44527
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Old August 20, 2011, 09:14 PM   #14
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BTW, I just watched the "Sons of Guns" TV program about an Arisaka .What a total load of BS !!

It certainly removes credibility from that program -TV the vast wasteland !
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Old August 20, 2011, 09:35 PM   #15
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I do wish people would stop confusing TV entertainment with factual information. Most of the "history" seen on TV is BS; the trouble is that those who get their knowledge of history from those sources are being badly deceived and misinformed about things a lot more serious than a rifle.

Jim
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Old August 21, 2011, 04:37 AM   #16
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I never saw that show "Sons of Guns", but the title should tell you something. I have no use for "Myth Busters" since they did the bullet- through- the- scope show either. The History channel is getting pretty liberal with their sources also. T.V. will never be anything but entertainment.
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Old August 21, 2011, 01:19 PM   #17
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That is a pretty nice looking Murata even considering the amount of rust. They are pretty hard to come by anymore. There is a Japanese rifle section on gunboards.com that has a pretty impressive lineup of expert collectors and authors that would love to see what you have there. You may want to head over and start a thread there as well.

As previously mentioned, be very careful with the amount of cleaning that you do to the rifle. A little bit of 0000 brass wool and liberal amounts of oil with very light scrubbing will be about as much as you'll want to do.

As far as "Sons of Guns"...when that DA said to be careful with that type 38 because "it doesn't have a safety"...that was it for me. I had quit watching a couple episodes before that, but that took the cake for sure!
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