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November 7, 2008, 09:25 AM | #101 | |
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The reason I say this is that our experience runs completely contrary - the "casual" shooters that I know fire about 50 to 100 rounds a month, and while they probably don't receive the 80 hours of training, they certainly do put more lead downrange. But again, that's been my personal experience, and it's also why it's extremely difficult to paint an accurate portrait of the "casual" shooter.
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November 7, 2008, 09:32 AM | #102 |
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Matt,
We haven't advanced since 1940? You still drive a model T. We all know that pistol fire is wimpy compared to the good old thirty cal in the chest, so repeat shots are first and foremost a requirement in shooting attacking criminals. This repeat, and rather fast repeat shots, are more consistent, and faster to apply with the G19 in two hands, locked up tight than the Applegate one hand crouch! Nate45 had it right; Sighted fire and the two handed grip should be the core principals. |
November 7, 2008, 09:56 AM | #103 | ||
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Speaking of the zipper, it is one of my favorite drills. |
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November 7, 2008, 01:20 PM | #104 | |
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November 7, 2008, 01:36 PM | #105 |
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I am comfortable agreeing to that, although on the flip side I would say that even the most casual/average competitive shooter fires more rounds per year than your average police officer.
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November 7, 2008, 05:32 PM | #106 | |
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November 7, 2008, 05:57 PM | #107 |
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No Brit..I drive a 2005 CRV.
Well, actually my wife does--I am still stuck with a 1993 Chevy Lumina. But the core concepts of driving--steering wheel, brake pedal, gas pedal, mirrors, etc---are the same as with cars from days of yore. And even today the core MECHANICS of driving remain unchanged from the 1920's What makes you think that two handed shooting was not taught before, during and after WW2? It was. Nor do I agree that one can't be fast and accurate with one handed shooting. In any case, if you want to GUNFIGHT a guy at 0-10 feet with two handed sighted shooting, then be my guest. Last edited by matthew temkin; November 7, 2008 at 06:09 PM. |
November 7, 2008, 06:21 PM | #108 |
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"Nor do I agree that one can't be fast and accurate with one handed shooting"
Nor do I!
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November 7, 2008, 06:30 PM | #109 | |
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As far as offense goes, if I personally was dead set on killing someone my 'ninja' technique would be to do it when they were least expecting it and unaware that I was anywhere around. All the 'gun fighting' practice in the world can't stop that.
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November 7, 2008, 07:01 PM | #110 |
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Yes Nate---it's a fight.
A fight in which you happen to have a gun. Which means that there is more to winning the fight than just being able to shoot fast and accurately with two handed aimed fire. Laugh at this all you want, but even a Mega Ninja Warrior as yourself can be taken by surprise. Or will one day have to play catch up. Which is likely due to your tendency to underestimate the opposition. Last edited by matthew temkin; November 7, 2008 at 07:08 PM. |
November 7, 2008, 07:20 PM | #111 | ||
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All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, the foundation of hand gunnery should be two handed sighted fire and that thats what novices should be trained in basic shooting skills. Lets take the military and the service rifle for example. Do they or do they not teach basic marksmanship before they teach advanced techniques such as Reflexive Fire? Quote:
'In life you travel around many corners.'-nate the mega ninja.
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November 7, 2008, 09:18 PM | #112 | |
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November 7, 2008, 11:43 PM | #113 |
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Actually Nate45, we pretty much agree.
I believe that threat focused skills should come only after the student has a good understanding of both two and one handed sighted shooting. And from a variety of positions, including from behind cover. Only then would I introduce the more advanced skills of point shooting. As to application--since so many civilian encounters happen up close and personal, why not concentrate on skills best suited to these situations? Such as one handed threat focused shooting from retention, close hip and all the way out to full extension? Which was my whole point all along. I also agree that a high level of awareness and avoiding trouble in the first place is very important. Yet how many competitive events would I win by refusing to go into an area populated by "armed bad guys" during a match? Last edited by matthew temkin; November 7, 2008 at 11:56 PM. |
November 7, 2008, 11:55 PM | #114 |
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Crime guns
There is no need to get excited over ways and means of deploying a concealed handgun in a criminal threat, the overwhelming way that is done is in no shots fired situations.
A threat is perceived as being imminent (sometimes in error!) CCW gun drawn, and pointed, words spoken (or not) threat legs it! I am sure many readers on the Firing Line have done just that. Some shoot outs are classic, and not always fair! A good friend of mine whilst in the RUC in Belfast (7 years RUC, after 15 in 42 Commando) was part of a foot patrol in a Hospital. His squadie partner for the day was a not so young trooper, a panicky nurse told them two masked gunmen had robbed the post office (it was in the Hospital) Des was armed with a concealed PP Walther in .380, and a Sterling Sub Gun in 9mm. His buddy for the day, with a Browning Hi Power, also in 9mm, they sent the nurse on her way, on hearing running boots, the Soldier stepped around a corner gun at eye level, fired two shots. Des said one died at the scene, the other a little later. Ammo; mil spec, hard ball that came in wee 64 round boxes, both wounds through and through. A tiled wall and floor environment not sub gun territory. No challenge issued. WHERE WE LIVE THERE ARE SHOOTINGS, THE GANG BANGERS SHOOT EACH OTHER, CRIMINALS DO HOME INVASIONS. The only civilian use to defeat criminals was a slick drawn .45 Colt deployed by a robbery victim in a Sub Shop in South Florida, by a 72 year old retired Chopper Pilot he shot both young men who had revolvers in their hands, one DRT, the other survived. The victim had given up his wallet, and reacted to a push in the direction of the washroom. Even with the huge amount of carry permits here in Florida, shootings by those CCW holders is a very rare event. So teaching Zipper drills, and the like, interesting, not very practical in the historical deployment of guns, the better use of training time for CCW holders (IMHO) would be just a whole bunch of draw and fire, draw and no shots fired, at one cardboard image, 8ft away. |
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