Laser and/or flashlight on .45ACP Semi-Auto

[JeffK]

I zero mine for closer distances just because that's where I'm most likely to be wanting to shoot in a defense scenario, and 5 yards might be on the far end of that likely range. I can usually hit a lot better than 3" off even at 25 yards at the range, definitely from a rest, so if I want to be accurate I have to reset the laser. Not a huge deal, but it's an annoyance, maybe more of an annoyance than I expected when I mounted the laser. The bigger challenge for me was getting used to focusing my eyes on the target instead of the sights, and I found myself flinching a lot at first.

[Bongo Boy]

I have Trijicons on two of the guns I carry, and they are certainly quite bright for night-adjusted vision. The dots are also quite small and, with my eyesight, generally quite blurred. So, for me at least, I seriously question whether I'm actually going to use them in a 'situation'. One never knows, and I have them--I just think I'm going to point and shoot if the distance is what I expect it to be (under 2-5 yds).

I have not used a laser myself--mostly because of how many people I've seen at the range using them and not hitting squat. I see them as being far slower than sights anytime I've observed them being used, with far too much distraction caused by a mass of jiggly green all over the place--seldom on the target. I'm sure training can solve this problem; I don't think they're inherently 'bad' devices.

As for lights, I held a similar low opinion of them until I had them flashed in my face a couple of times--now I'm thinking quite differently. IF I practice with it and IF I can get to it in time (same goes for the gun itself), then I think a bright light such as the TLR-1 or TLR-1 HL at $110-125 is going to be extremely effective in buying a lot of time. My gut feel is one of these would improve home defense effectiveness by about a factor of 10, actually.

I'd definitely have to mount it to the gun, otherwise I'd never find it, but I guess that's the idea.

[SerenityNetworks]

:-) I seriously doubt I could put all that many bullets in a 10" pie plate at 50 yards with a .45. Shooting offhand with my 22/45 and factory sights, I'm a 16 MOA (4" at 25 yards) shooter on a good day. But more commonly, with 10 rounds, I'm going to have a couple that stretch me out to 6 inches (and not uncommonly more). I don't know where that places me related to what's considered average, but I suspect with the shorter sight radius on the SAR that I won't be near as good as with the 22/45.

But with my question regarding flashlights and lasers largely answered, I've hijacked my own thread to clarify my understanding on the topic of zeroing lasers - that the offset of a laser is handled any differently than the offset of irons, red dot, or a scope. My point about the 25, 35, or whatever zero is not that I can hit a 3" area at 50 yards or would ever expect to shoot at something 50 yards away; it's simply about maximizing an effective kill range. If I want to keep all my shots for a given projectile and sight offset (irons, scope, laser, or whatever) within "x" area (x/2" POI above or below POA) then there will be a point at which I can zero my weapon (rifle, pistol, or whatever) that maximizes the distance at which the projectile will fall within that "x" area (whether it be 1", 3", or more). If I'm shooting at large game or defensively, where I consider a 3" area effective, then it makes sense to me to zero at the longer distances that maximize my 'point blank' range and doesn't put my shot drastically off if I do find myself shooting at something farther off than anticipated.

I can understand Jeff K's rationale and don't necessarily disagree. But since I'm a noob at pistols (at least as compared to my knowledge of riflery), I want to make sure that my conclusions are also valid. Especially since I don't have a pistol laser and my conclusions come purely from ballistic charts.

For example:
Assuming I'm using a .45 ACP, 230 Grain, American Eagle FMJ then:
a zero at 5 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 12 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 10 yards.
a zero at 10 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 22 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 19 yards.
a zero at 15 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 29 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 26 yards.
a zero at 20 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 36 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 33 yards.
a zero at 25 yds and laser 2" below the barrel keeps you within a 3" area from muzzle to 41 yards. A -3" offset gets you to 39 yards.

From what I can see, if I want to stay within that 3" area and my laser's offset is 3" then 25 yards turns out to be my optimal zeroing range. (See attached image.) Is this correct or are my conclusions nonsense?

Thanks again,
Andrew

[JeffK]

Sure, you picked an offset number you're happy with (3") and worked out where to zero the laser to maximize the range where the offset is less than that. You could have picked a different offset number, say 4" or 6", and you'd get a different result. Effectively I picked a smaller offset number (1.5") and worked out where to zero the laser so the offset is less than that over a specific range, 2.5-7.5 yards with my gun and laser. I'm guessing I'll never care about distances much beyond 7 yards outside the range (if I do I can still use the iron sights), and if I'm as close as 6 feet I'm probably not even going to use sights or lasers, because that's getting up-close and personal. Depends what you want and will be happy with.

[WC145]

Lots of people have trouble with lasers because they're focusing on the dot as though it is a sight. Like using a red dot sight, using a laser properly requires changing your aiming style from sight focused to target focused. When we learn to use iron sights we're taught to focus on the front sight, when we do that the target will blur. When using a laser or red dot you focus on the target and superimpose the dot on it, once you understand and become accustomed to this they are very fast and accurate. This is why I had laser grips on my BUG, I could make accurate hits without having to raise the gun to eye level to use the sights and I could do it with either hand.

[SerenityNetworks]

Jeff, you are exactly right. There are many variables that will change what a person will want for a zero distance. Of course the big ones are the ammo, the amount of offset (barrel to laser), and the difference between POA and POI that is acceptable for the purpose.

For my purposes 1.5" high or low is fine. Since I'm more likely to use the gun in the field, I can easily see me wanting to make a shot of 20 or so yards. And if I do ever have to use the pistol against a BG at close range then whether I'm 1.5" high or low won't make any difference. Likewise, the ammo I have in the pistol at home (Speer Gold Dot) has much different ballistics than the ammo I use in the field. But if I ever get a laser for the pistol then I'll likely zero it for the field, as if I'm at close range the offset again won't make a difference.

I'm sorry I didn't mention it before. I get the trajectory/ballistics information for the various ammo from the ballistics calculator at gundata.org. It's helped me not waste ammo trying to find a good zero distance when sighting in my rifles. I'm older and not so good any more at quickly calculating in my head. I like to set my rifles so I know that between x yards and y yards I can just place the crosshairs on the animal, pull the trigger, and know that if my aim was good then the bullet will hit in a kill zone. I don't want to worry about magnification, bullet drop hash marks, notes in my scope covers, or anything.

WC, if I ever get a laser then I'm sure that will take some getting used to. I have used a laser on my rifles, but then I'm still looking through my scope. I'm sure it will seem odd at first trying to sight without looking through the sights. I've never done that before.

[Onward Allusion]

I'm probably stating the obvious, but 3 different tools 3 different uses. Lasers for closer ranges and from weird angles where you are not using sights; Point shooting comes to mind. The light helps you see (duh) what you might be shooting at. Depending on the focus-ability of the light, it may also act as a point shooting aide. Night sights are for shooting when you are using sights (duh again). It's for further distances. Think - are you really gonna be extending your arms out to acquire your target when your assailant is across the room?

For my carry guns, they all have lasers and some have both lasers and night sights. I'm pretty sure if I ever had to use my carry gun, I am not going to have time to acquire the target using my irons. For my HD guns they have a laser/light combo.

FWIW, don't get a cheap laser. They break easily. Trust me. I have gone through thru the gamut of lasers. Stick with the better known brands: Streamlight, CrimsonTrace, LaserLyte, Viridian, or ArmaLaser. Save the cheap lasers for fun at the range.

[SerenityNetworks]

LaserLyte went on sale today at the Cabela's down the block. (Yes, I have one five minutes from my house. Don't hate me for that.) Tomorrow is my birthday. Hmmm.

[44 AMP]

We have had lots of discussions about weapon mounted lights, lasers, etc. Search for them and you will find lots of opinions.

Personally, I don't like the idea of a light mounted on the gun. Others disagree. For the bulk of un and undertrained people, I feel they are an accident waiting to happen.

In the hands of trained professionals, it can be another story.

You sound like you have given it some thought, and would probably not be much of a risk with one. But when things are going on, and you have a light on your gun, its a very strong temptation to use that light to see things, which means pointing the gun at them. For many people I think that is a risky thing. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

[SerenityNetworks]

You bet! That is a very important consideration and I'm very glad you brought it up. I should stick to the rule of either pointing the gun in a safe direction or at what I want to shoot. Something I just want to look at is likely not going to be either of those two. For hunting I have two predator lights and a cap light. I don't use the light on my rifle for looking around, as it would mean pointing the rifle at things I don't intend to shoot &/or not in a safe direction. I use a separate, hand held, light for looking around. I don't know why I didn't think of that in the context of a laser/flashlight combination unit on a pistol. So thank you very much for bringing it up.

Last night I did pick up the LaserLyte unit that is on sale at Cabela's for $70 through Sunday. With my $20 certificate that brought it down to $50, I couldn't resist. I tried some dry fire practice with it and oddly enough I had no issue quickly and directly pointing the laser/dot where I intended and holding it steady. (I think that may be to hand and direction awareness I gained from a side job I had 40 years ago. Maybe some of the ability has lingered.) Anyway, I'll be curious as to how it all goes when I get the chance to get to out and put some ammo through the gun.

Thanks again everyone for your input,
Andrew

[Metalboy]

Reading all you wrote about the Crimson Trace, last nite I ordered one again, for the 3rd. time. Looks like finely I'll be getting one, bought the last one at this supplier. It will be one of the toys for me, sighted at the same place/offset as it is located on the gun.
So life is good.

[Snyper]

Last night I did pick up the LaserLyte unit that is on sale at Cabela's for $70 through Sunday

Which model did you get?

[SerenityNetworks]

It has two numbers on the package. SCV4 and FSL-4. I believe the latter is the actual model number. The SKU is 6 89706 21235 6

[Eight_is_enough]

I am never without a tac light handy, but I do not want one on my pistol for all the reasons you stated.

I have night sights on my EDC .45 and they look really cool, but the CT laser on it is a vastly superior accessory. If you ever have a hog racing around you in the dark woods slashing up your buddies or dogs the laser will get you on it 10X faster than night sights will, not to mention the high value of being able to keep your eyes focused "out there" instead having to come back to the front sight, which lets you keep track of where the moving target and the dogs all are while you are trying to shoot.

I find that so long as I keep my grip screws the same degree of snugness my CT lasers are remarkably stable and accurate. I know my iron sights are dead on, and every now and then I compare them to the red dot and make sure the dot is still dead on. After hearing all the Internet claptrap about how "unstable" lasers are, I have been very pleasantly surprised. I keep my grip screws snug by putting high-strength thread-locker on my bushings and purple Lok-Tite on the grip screws themselves. The screws easily spin out if I want them out but never vibrate loose from shooting. Purple Lok-Tite is beyond cool -- it is even reusable.

Ditto for the "sighting in distance." The CT laser is about the same distance from the bore axis as the iron sights are. I therefore don't worry any more about "sighting in distance" with the laser than I do with the iron sights.

I have been using CT lasers on my EDC and a couple of range guns for over a year. They work every time I push the button, which is very easy to do -- I just squeeze my middle finger a bit. The only thing that ever goes wrong is you can if not careful get a finger or something else in the way, blocking the laser. That is, however, a training issue. The reliability of the CT is 100% as far as I can tell, unless I were to inundate my gun with water shorting the batteries out or something.

The dot gradually gets less bright as the batteries run down. After a year of daily activation several times a day I recently changed my batteries. The dot was starting to get slightly less bright. It was still very usable, but CT gives you a fresh set once a year so what the heck?

In short, I'm about as worried about my laser failing at the time I really need it as I am my quality factory rounds -- not much.

The bad news is that the CT Master Series lasers I am running cost $300 from the cheapest retailer I can find. Don't tell CT but after once being in a situation where I needed a laser and did not have one, I would not be without one again if they cost $2,300.

If the inexpensive laser you bought isn't everything you hoped it would be, save up your pennies and get a CT.

[Metalboy]

I have my Crimson Trace ordered, because the one who dies with the most toys is the winner.

[SerenityNetworks]

Well I I finally got the SAR-K2 out to the range today. OMG am I going to love this pistol. I have small hands, but it fits me like a dream for shooting. It is a little thick to work the magazine release and close the bolt with total ease, but a little more practice will solve that issue. And I would trade that for shoot-ability any day. The muzzle flip is very gentle. The trigger isn't amazing, but it is much better than average. It's also a trigger with which I can be consistent. And I can shoot DA & SA with almost equal accuracy. I shot 75 rounds with 3 different types of ammo and there were no feed issues whatsoever, plus I couldn't tell that it preferred one type over the other. It points so the sites just line up naturally. I'm still grinning like a Cheshire cat.

But back to the topic. The bay I was shooting in was very dim and I forgot my pistol shooting glasses, so my sights were pretty blurry. But I finally got a halfway decent zero and then zeroed the laser just by putting the dot above the front sight. I was having so much fun with the iron sights that I almost forgot to try the laser. But I finally remembered and tried a couple of groups. I shot with the pistol next to my diagram. Each group was roughly 4 inches at 25 yards. That was a little less than 1/2 the size that I was able to get with my blurry sights. Time will tell whether the laser will hold a zero or whether it will last at all. Also I forgot to check the visibility of the laser in broad daylight. But so far I'm very pleased.

By the way, thank you for the very excellent points about lasers, hogs and dogs.

[Metalboy]

I also thank you for the information I've red here.

[Eight_is_enough]

Also I forgot to check the visibility of the laser in broad daylight. But so far I'm very pleased.

Sorry, with a red laser you're going to have to shoot the old-fashioned way.

Green lasers are much more visible in daylight but eat batteries.

I'm content to use my iron sights in daylight. I just have to know that in low light I have a red laser. If CT ever starts putting green lasers in their Master Series laser grips I may change my mind.

Glad that new gun is working well for you. Thank goodness we live in a country that (still) recognizes the importance of an armed citizenry.

[SerenityNetworks]

Well... It's overcast and rainy, but I can see the dot across the street and even against green bushes. Yet even though it's pointing right where I think it should be, it takes me a second or two to find the dot. I wouldn't necessarily want to use it for acquisition at that distance. With the new batteries and it being overcast, it shows nice and bright up to about 25 yards. I'm not sure what to expect in broad daylight. It looks like I'll need to wait a day or two to find out. But I'm really not concerned. It would be a very odd circumstance for me to need or want the laser outdoors in daylight.

[Onward Allusion]

You may have a problem on your hands if you end up shooting somebody at 25 yards. Also, IMO - lasers are for much closer work - say 10 yards or less. Anything further and you are better off using iron.

[SerenityNetworks]

Onward Allusion, the odds are this pistol will rarely if ever be used as a carry weapon. While at home the pistol could be used for self-defense its primary purpose is use in the field. Shooting a moving target (hog) at or beyond 25 yards at night is certainly a possibility. Even in the daylight, the laser might be a better option than irons on something like a hog. (Using artificial light on game animals is illegal in Texas, so for something like deer irons would be used and it will be daylight anyway.)

In short, after reading the input provided in this post, I'm more of the thinking that lasers are good for when it is impractical to use irons; most have little or nothing to do with distance. Some examples would be:

• Unconventional shooting position
• Dim lighting
• No lighting
• Where attention needs to be kept on what's happening around the target, rather than on the front sight (hogs and dogs)
• Distances greater than what irons allow for accuracy

With the addition of a laser to the pistol, it gives me more sighting options. It will also require me to answer one more question I make to myself before I take a shot, 'which is better, irons or laser'.

[Eight_is_enough]

Well... It's overcast and rainy, but I can see the dot across the street and even against green bushes. Yet even though it's pointing right where I think it should be, it takes me a second or two to find the dot.

There is a significant amount of many days taken up by dawn or dusk. In those times night sights have little utility and I cannot see my iron sights well at all, even given plenty of time. A lot of that may be age, but it is what it is, and the cause is irrelevant. But the red dot just screams across the ground, tress, bushes, etc.

To me night sights are for assassins. You know, where you are sneaking up on an unwary, still victim and have plenty of time to carefully aim. Trying to use them in an actual SD scenario seems problematic, to say the least. But however good they may work at night, they are useless to me during dawn and dusk light.

I don't get the "lasers are for short range" stuff. I regularly shoot in low light at 28 yards and find the laser to produce much more accurate results for me than iron sights in those conditions. The laser does not lie. Wherever it is, is where the bullet is going to strike. With the iron sights in low light it is very hard for me to even tell when they are lined up right, much less lined up right and on the target.

The CT laser is about 9/16" from the bore axis. That means if the laser is on at 25 yards it is going to be off by 9/16" at 50 yards (ignoring bullet-drop). If I had to make a SD or defense of others shot at 50 yards on a non-stationary target, I would much prefer to be able to use the laser than the irons, the problem with seeing the iron sights in low light aside. Even when I can see the irons, on a moving target, even a slow moving, the laser is going to work much better for me.

[mrdaputer]

I picked up a Crimson Trace CMR-203 put it on my Walther PPQ M1 and love it. The green is very easy to see even in the sunlight. A lot of personal defense trainers have changed their mind and now recommend them as lasers have gotten smaller and brighter. They say in the heat of a battle "that I would say most if not all of us have never been in" with the adrenaline pumping it is quicker than sights. They show it can be used quicker if you drop to the ground and are moving. I mostly use my iron sights and use the laser as a tool. Like to see how much muzzle flip I have going on and focus on minimize that. Never totally rely on it. I also am teaching my daughter to shoot my 22 and it helps out a lot.