S&W 36 addendum

dahermit · September 22, 2011, 10:16 PM

In the continuing saga of the thread: S&W 36 disappointment.
In my continuing effort to turn my S&W 36 (no dash) into something with as nice a double-action trigger pull and as shootable as my lowly Taurus 85 I have discovered that aside from having an extremely heavy double-action trigger pull, the hammer is striking (rubbing against) the frame as it is fired (I put a red oval around the place...but it is hard to see in the photo.). Also, the left side of the trigger is rubbing against the frame.

However, my generally despised (not by me), and supposedly inferior Taurus has no such faults and continues to be completely reliable, with a very good double-action trigger pull.

When I had the Taurus 85 apart I carefully inspected the internals for any indication of inferior workmanship, etc., compared to the S&W 36. Its trigger, hand, hammer, and hammer spring are mostly identical to the S&W 36. There was not rebound slide however, just a captive spring that resets the trigger. Also, instead of hammer block, there is a hammer bar that raises into position to engage the frame mounted firing pin. There was no apparent lack of quality or workmanship that was evident. In fact, the hammer and trigger on the Taurus did not rub the frame as did the S&W...they were perfectly fitted.

I have used hammer and trigger shimming washers to compensate for the lack of quality I found in the S&W. I will do some more test firing of the S&W 36 tomorrow to see if the shims have properly centered the affected components.

jrothWA · September 23, 2011, 08:01 AM

like a new hammer and trigger maybe required??

I'm thinking that the pivots holes for both are not square or are worn.

Replacement maybe the best solution fro you to do.

Are the spring original or after-market, seeing that you have a trigger shoe on it, did you install or the 36 came with it?

Have 3 j-frames, other than detailing and lubing had no problem.

The last bought was used and holding the cylinder side down and releasing the catch, the cylinder would partially drop.

Detailed and lube it work nice and trigger pull for DA/SA is great.

carguychris · September 23, 2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

I'm thinking that the pivots holes for both are not square or are worn.

That, or the pivot pins are bent, possibly from being dry-fired with the sideplate off.

I think you should consider calling S&W and seeing if they'll still work on it.

dahermit · September 23, 2011, 09:04 AM

Quote:

... or the pivot pins are bent, possibly from being dry-fired with the sideplate off...

Or, it is just poor workmanship by S&W as evidenced by the fact that my fairly recent model S&W 696 came requiring the same shimming to keep the trigger and hammer from dragging. The trigger and hammer dragging on the frame must be a fairly common occurrence for S&W inasmuch as hammer and trigger shims are sold by MidwayUsa, Brownell's to fix that problem.

Glenn Dee · September 23, 2011, 02:11 PM

Ahhh I dont know... I own a few Smiths..... never seen the issues you guy's are having. A 36 no dash should be of the finest kind. Sounds like maybe these few guns were the victim's of a kitchen table gunsmith.

Clifford L. Hughes · September 23, 2011, 04:45 PM

dahermit:

I agree with Glen Dee.

Semper Fi.

Guunnery seergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

Clifford L. Hughes · September 23, 2011, 04:47 PM

dahermit:

I agree with Glen Dee.

Semper Fi.

Guunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired

Glenn Dee · September 23, 2011, 08:43 PM

What is a 696?

dahermit · September 23, 2011, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Sounds like maybe these few guns were the victim's of a kitchen table gunsmith.

I purchased the 696 was new. A 696 is an L frame, stainless steel 5-shot .44 spl. The 36 was never touched. There was not even a ring around the cylinder, the double action bar still had a blued contact surface. For all apparent purposes, it was brand new, old stock. Neither were the victims of a kitchen table gunsmith.
Having examined the internal of the frame still further, the frame side hammer boss was rough, actually digging into the mating hammer surface.
Boy, it is really hard for some of you guys to admit S&W (and Colt), turn out some problematic pieces. It seems to be, if its made by Taurus and there is a problem, it is because Taurus sells junk...but if it a S&W, it is the fault of a kitchen table gunsmith. True love dies so hard.

jhco50 · September 24, 2011, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Or, it is just poor workmanship by S&W as evidenced by the fact that my fairly recent model S&W 696 came requiring the same shimming to keep the trigger and hammer from dragging. The trigger and hammer dragging on the frame must be a fairly common occurrence for S&W inasmuch as hammer and trigger shims are sold by MidwayUsa, Brownell's to fix that problem.

DaHermit, you need to remember your M36 with no dash is pretty darn old. Not only has it probably been shot a lot, you have no idea as to how it was taken care of. It could have been a police backup and kicked around a bit. I have seen newer guns that have been abused and I'm sure people did it 60 years ago.

I think you are being hard on the old warhorse and should contact S&W to see if they will rebuild it for you. I swear by the older S&Ws as they were some really well built firearms.

dahermit · September 24, 2011, 08:53 AM

Quote:

DaHermit, you need to remember your M36 with no dash is pretty darn old. Not only has it probably been shot a lot, you have no idea as to how it was taken care of. It could have been a police backup and kicked around a bit. I have seen newer guns that have been abused and I'm sure people did it 60 years ago.

Gosh...you should put more effort in reading the posts: "...There was not even a ring around the cylinder, the double action bar still had a blued contact surface ..." Also, look at the gun in my original post: S&W 36 dissapointment. The 36 was unfired...there was no wear externally or internally to indicate it had ever been fired. The insides were rough, rough, rough, rough, not worn, worn, worn. Read more, think more, post less.

Quote:

I think you are being hard on the old warhorse and should contact S&W to see if they will rebuild it for you. I swear by the older S&Ws as they were some really well built firearms.

There is very little, perhaps nothing that S&W can do to improve the 36 that I cannot do. I am well on my way to improving the trigger pull and removing all the internal roughness. The point of my posts is: How poor this 36 truly was...from the factory. And how good FROM THE FACTORY, that my Taurus 85 was in comparison.

Skadoosh · September 24, 2011, 08:58 AM

I am glad you have a forum in which to make your point. But your anecdotal observations still haven't convinced me that any given Taurus revolver will be as good or better than any give S&W revolver.

dahermit · September 24, 2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

I am glad you have a forum in which to make your point.

Translation? : "Inasmuch as I am love S&W so much that they can do no wrong, your posts are beginning to irritate me." ?

Quote:

But your anecdotal observations still haven't convinced me that any given Taurus revolver will be as good or better than any give S&W revolver.

What you mean is: But your anecdotal observations still haven't convinced me that in general Taurus revolvers will be as good or better than S&W revolvers? If that is not what you mean, please define, "better".

The only experience with Taurus revolvers is a single example of a Taurus 85. That example has shown zero issues and has required no changes to give it the wonderful double action trigger pull that it came from the factory with.On the other hand, all the S&W's I have ever bought, all new except one, have had issues (burrs that impeded function, out of time, hammer or trigger rubbing on the frame, etc. ), as had all Colt 1911's except one. Admittedly, this is not the result of scientific comparisons...but then I never said it was. My primary complaint is that all other S&W and Colt 1911 lovers, are oblivious to the poorly finished (rough internals) and fitted product that the big brand names routinely put out at high prices. I can only assume the average shooter ether does not have the knowledge of manufacturing, metal finishing, parts fitting, ability to take the side plate off and actually determine if what they are looking at is quality or not, or they have an irrational and emotional attachment to the brand name.
And before some one gushes that I must be a S&W or Colt "hater", I am fond of and shoot (very frequently),both pre-lock S&W's, and Colt 1911's.

Glenn Dee · September 24, 2011, 10:54 AM

Dahermit...
Sir...

I do admit to being a S&W fanboy. I do so proudly. A S&W 36 no dash IMO was made when S&W was in it's finest day You own two Smiths that gave problems? Well maybe you have what some of us call a friday afternoon gun. Thats one assembled when the worker had his mind on the weekend and not his work. More than likely a 36 no-dash with the issues your having has been tinkered with, and possibly re-finished. As they were all shot at the factory and had at least one marking.

Of course no manufacture is perfect. S&W is not perfect. Not all of their firearms are perfect. IME 99% of them are. Sure some people may find personal dislikes about them... These people own tauri I guess. My personal experience is having Messers Smith and Wesson save my butt on several occasions. For me they have a winning record.

I currently own over fifty S&W revolvers. I've never experienced any of the problems you are having with any of them. Not to negate your problems... I'm just saying...

I have nothing personal against Taurus revolvers. But since I have

often bet my life on a revolver... I adhere to the old axiom "Where there's smoke, there's fire"

Glenn D.

dahermit · September 24, 2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Dahermit...
Sir...

I do admit to being a S&W fanboy. I do so proudly. A S&W 36 no dash IMO was made when S&W was in it's finest day You own two Smiths that gave problems?

Glenn D... Sir...
I also am a S&W fanboy...but I am not blind and unaware. I have had six S&W's, three had problems, the other three were used when I bought them and that had no apparent issues. The is 50% of the S&W's I had, had manufacturing issues.

Quote:

Well maybe you have what some of us call a friday afternoon gun. Thats one assembled when the worker had his mind on the weekend and not his work.

That is exactly the kind of post I take issue with. A generality, a platitude. Unless of course, you have a link to the data that actually shows a correlation between a S&W being made on Friday and the ones that have issues.

Quote:

More than likely a 36 no-dash with the issues your having has been tinkered with, and possibly re-finished. As they were all shot at the factory and had at least one marking.

There is no, zero, nada evidence to make you conclude that the gun has "been tinkered with". Just exactly what was likely to be tinkered with inside the gun that would give it a horribly heavy trigger pull? Do you think a person bough the gun and said to himself, "Hey I like an extremely heavy trigger pull; I will replace the rebound spring and the mainspring with after market heaver ones."
Other than that, please just for my benefit explain what part a tinkerer could alter to make the trigger pull so heavy? I stoned the rough hammer bosses and the trigger pull was improved quite a bit...the tinkerer must have added metal to the bosses and somehow roughed them up. If so, please explain how a person adds metal, despite my training in machining, I have never been able to figure out how to do that...except by welding and re-machining. All of that of course is quite a stretch.

Quote:

Sure some people may find personal dislikes about them...

And again, I like them, but I prefer that S&W, use the same care and inspections that other precision product industries use to assure that faulty merchandise does not leave the factory. After all, we are paying a premium price that should cover such care. Otherwise, why are S&W prices so high compared to Taurus revolvers (I have zero experience with Taurus autos)?

Quote:

These people own tauri I guess. My personal experience is having Messers Smith and Wesson save my butt on several occasions. For me they have a winning record.

Yeah, and I used to be a Marine snipper. Well, I was not really...but hey, I have doubts about romanticized stories on forums.

Quote:

I currently own over fifty S&W revolvers. I've never experienced any of the problems you are having with any of them. Not to negate your problems... I'm just saying...

And if you are like the majority of shooters, you have not ever tested for out-of-time, or even looked inside the side-plate. If you trigger pull is way too heavy, you just accept it, because after all it is a Smith & Wesson.

Quote:

I have nothing personal against Taurus revolvers. But since I have

often bet my life on a revolver... I adhere to the old axiom "Where there's smoke, there's fire"

If you truly believed that you would be wary of S&W also, because there is a lot of smoke concerning S&W in the nature of posts of those who have had issues with them.

Texas Blues · September 24, 2011, 01:25 PM

Those dang cheap Chinese forgery guns! All kidding aside, that is a pretty cool trigger modification. Does the trigger now feel fat enough? Thanks, TB

Don P · September 24, 2011, 01:43 PM

Perhaps a call to S&W discussing the problems with the gun might get a free shipping and repair job for the said problems. Nothing to lose except the time invested in the call.
As far as some of the posts goes "EVERY" manufacturer will produce and ship guns that should have never left the factory. Thats where customer service come in. Does anyone really think that the new car dealers what a service department? In general if a service department breaks even they are doing good. They have to have service departments to handle warranty issues.

dahermit · September 24, 2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Those dang cheap Chinese forgery guns! All kidding aside, that is a pretty cool trigger modification. Does the trigger now feel fat enough? Thanks, TB

The trigger shoe is just a temporary measure until my wider but serrated 36 trigger arrives...and the serrations are ground off. The shoe will go when I am finished working on the gun. Also, I have got a set of S&W J-Frame compact grips on the way...the Hogue mono-grips feel good when shooting, but way too long; them make a J-frame seem like at least a K frame.

dahermit · September 24, 2011, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Perhaps a call to S&W discussing the problems with the gun might get a free shipping and repair job for the said problems. Nothing to lose except the time invested in the call.

Read the last paragraph in post #11. Fixing/improving the function of guns is the most fun I have ever had with my clothes on.

Skadoosh · September 24, 2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

I am glad you have a forum in which to make your point.

Translation? : "Inasmuch as I am love S&W so much that they can do no wrong, your posts are beginning to irritate me." ?

Very good. I wonder if I am the only one who finds is dismaying why it takes two separate threads to express your disappointment of one particular gun?

Quote:

But your anecdotal observations still haven't convinced me that any given Taurus revolver will be as good or better than any give S&W revolver.

What you mean is: But your anecdotal observations still haven't convinced me that in general Taurus revolvers will be as good or better than S&W revolvers? If that is not what you mean, please define, "better".

No, I meant what I wrote: I believe the chances of any random S&W revolver having a mechanical defect is far less than any random Taurus revolver. To me, that is the definition of 'better'.

dahermit · September 24, 2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Very good. I wonder if I am the only one who finds is dismaying why it takes two separate threads to express your disappointment of one particular gun?

You would wonder less and be less dismayed if you knew the meaning of, "addendum". Beside that, I had misspelled "disappointment" and like the word "addendum".

Quote:

No, I meant what I wrote: I believe the chances of any random S&W revolver having a mechanical defect is far less than any random Taurus revolver. To me, that is the definition of 'better'.

What you believe is likely to only be pertinent to yourself and your mom. Now if you could actually sight some evidence to support that belief, in the form of actual numbers, then this being a gun forum, would be an interest to all if not most.

Glenn Dee · September 24, 2011, 07:25 PM

LOL
Dahermit
Sir;

Still I find it difficult to digest three S&W revolvers out of six having issues with manufacturing standards.
I base this opinion only on my own experience with S&W revolvers. As I said I now own over 50 of them, and have owned quite a few more.

As far as calling a firearm with multiple factory quality issues a friday afternoon gun... Thats just a saying. I believe I made that clear. Sorry if it offends you.

I base my opinion that your gun was tampered with on my own experience, and that of people I have known, and worked with. Again it's only my opinion.

You may or may not have been a Marine sniper. All I said was I like S&W's and that revolvers of this manufacture have saved my but on several ocasion. Actually it was a lot more. I dont expect you to accept my statement of experience on face value... But I stand by it all the same. P/M me and we can swap war stories...

Most of the shooter's I know do pay attention to timing, fit and finish, and general quality. But your right... I dont open the side plate and tinker with the gun if I believe the trigger is too hard. I'd take it to a smith. Thats if I ever had one with an unacceptabe trigger.

Installed a trigger shoe have we?... someone installed hogue mono grips? So this is a used gun? Your going to change springs?...well ok.

My advice would be to lose the trigger shoe. It can cause the revolver to malfunction, and become a paper weight... But then... that's a war story..

Best of luck

Glenn D.

dahermit · September 24, 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Installed a trigger shoe have we?... someone installed hogue mono grips? So this is a used gun? Your going to change springs?...well ok.

Changed springs...past tense. Yes, because I happened to have one and I wanted to do a lot of test shooting with the gun. "Someone" did not install Hogue mono-grips, I did for the the same reason as the trigger shoe. Re: Used gun. Read post #9.

Quote:

My advice would be to lose the trigger shoe. It can cause the revolver to malfunction, and become a paper weight... But then... that's a war story..

Read post #18

AKsRul.e · September 24, 2011, 07:55 PM

dahermit - your pictures are too small to see any defects in the parts.

If the 36 is such poor quality why not just buy another Taurus.

madcratebuilder · September 25, 2011, 05:29 AM

I guess my 36 no dash was made on a different day as after forty years it's still like new. No need to change springs as it has the feel I want in a SD revolver.

The Kuhnhausen S&W shop manual well show you how to straighten the hammer and trigger pins and shim as required.

September 23, 2011, 08:01 AM	#2
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	For a "no-dash" M36, it looks... like a new hammer and trigger maybe required?? I'm thinking that the pivots holes for both are not square or are worn. Replacement maybe the best solution fro you to do. Are the spring original or after-market, seeing that you have a trigger shoe on it, did you install or the 36 came with it? Have 3 j-frames, other than detailing and lubing had no problem. The last bought was used and holding the cylinder side down and releasing the catch, the cylinder would partially drop. Detailed and lube it work nice and trigger pull for DA/SA is great.

September 24, 2011, 08:58 AM	#12
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	I am glad you have a forum in which to make your point. But your anecdotal observations still haven't convinced me that any given Taurus revolver will be as good or better than any give S&W revolver. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

September 24, 2011, 01:43 PM	#17
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Perhaps a call to S&W discussing the problems with the gun might get a free shipping and repair job for the said problems. Nothing to lose except the time invested in the call. As far as some of the posts goes "EVERY" manufacturer will produce and ship guns that should have never left the factory. Thats where customer service come in. Does anyone really think that the new car dealers what a service department? In general if a service department breaks even they are doing good. They have to have service departments to handle warranty issues. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

September 22, 2011, 10:16 PM	#1
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	S&W 36 addendum In the continuing saga of the thread: S&W 36 disappointment. In my continuing effort to turn my S&W 36 (no dash) into something with as nice a double-action trigger pull and as shootable as my lowly Taurus 85 I have discovered that aside from having an extremely heavy double-action trigger pull, the hammer is striking (rubbing against) the frame as it is fired (I put a red oval around the place...but it is hard to see in the photo.). Also, the left side of the trigger is rubbing against the frame. However, my generally despised (not by me), and supposedly inferior Taurus has no such faults and continues to be completely reliable, with a very good double-action trigger pull. When I had the Taurus 85 apart I carefully inspected the internals for any indication of inferior workmanship, etc., compared to the S&W 36. Its trigger, hand, hammer, and hammer spring are mostly identical to the S&W 36. There was not rebound slide however, just a captive spring that resets the trigger. Also, instead of hammer block, there is a hammer bar that raises into position to engage the frame mounted firing pin. There was no apparent lack of quality or workmanship that was evident. In fact, the hammer and trigger on the Taurus did not rub the frame as did the S&W...they were perfectly fitted. I have used hammer and trigger shimming washers to compensate for the lack of quality I found in the S&W. I will do some more test firing of the S&W 36 tomorrow to see if the shims have properly centered the affected components. Last edited by dahermit; November 6, 2020 at 12:54 PM.

September 23, 2011, 02:11 PM	#5
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Ahhh I dont know... I own a few Smiths..... never seen the issues you guy's are having. A 36 no dash should be of the finest kind. Sounds like maybe these few guns were the victim's of a kitchen table gunsmith.

September 23, 2011, 04:45 PM	#6
Clifford L. Hughes Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Location: Southern Californis Posts: 795	dahermit: I agree with Glen Dee. Semper Fi. Guunnery seergeant Clifford L. Hughes USMC Retired

September 23, 2011, 04:47 PM	#7
Clifford L. Hughes Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Location: Southern Californis Posts: 795	dahermit: I agree with Glen Dee. Semper Fi. Guunnery sergeant Clifford L. Hughes USMC Retired

September 23, 2011, 08:43 PM	#8
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	What is a 696?

September 24, 2011, 10:54 AM	#14
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Dahermit... Sir... I do admit to being a S&W fanboy. I do so proudly. A S&W 36 no dash IMO was made when S&W was in it's finest day You own two Smiths that gave problems? Well maybe you have what some of us call a friday afternoon gun. Thats one assembled when the worker had his mind on the weekend and not his work. More than likely a 36 no-dash with the issues your having has been tinkered with, and possibly re-finished. As they were all shot at the factory and had at least one marking. Of course no manufacture is perfect. S&W is not perfect. Not all of their firearms are perfect. IME 99% of them are. Sure some people may find personal dislikes about them... These people own tauri I guess. My personal experience is having Messers Smith and Wesson save my butt on several occasions. For me they have a winning record. I currently own over fifty S&W revolvers. I've never experienced any of the problems you are having with any of them. Not to negate your problems... I'm just saying... I have nothing personal against Taurus revolvers. But since I have often bet my life on a revolver... I adhere to the old axiom "Where there's smoke, there's fire" Glenn D.

September 24, 2011, 01:25 PM	#16
Texas Blues Member Join Date: April 25, 2011 Posts: 30	Those dang cheap Chinese forgery guns! All kidding aside, that is a pretty cool trigger modification. Does the trigger now feel fat enough? Thanks, TB

September 24, 2011, 07:25 PM	#22
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	LOL Dahermit Sir; Still I find it difficult to digest three S&W revolvers out of six having issues with manufacturing standards. I base this opinion only on my own experience with S&W revolvers. As I said I now own over 50 of them, and have owned quite a few more. As far as calling a firearm with multiple factory quality issues a friday afternoon gun... Thats just a saying. I believe I made that clear. Sorry if it offends you. I base my opinion that your gun was tampered with on my own experience, and that of people I have known, and worked with. Again it's only my opinion. You may or may not have been a Marine sniper. All I said was I like S&W's and that revolvers of this manufacture have saved my but on several ocasion. Actually it was a lot more. I dont expect you to accept my statement of experience on face value... But I stand by it all the same. P/M me and we can swap war stories... Most of the shooter's I know do pay attention to timing, fit and finish, and general quality. But your right... I dont open the side plate and tinker with the gun if I believe the trigger is too hard. I'd take it to a smith. Thats if I ever had one with an unacceptabe trigger. Installed a trigger shoe have we?... someone installed hogue mono grips? So this is a used gun? Your going to change springs?...well ok. My advice would be to lose the trigger shoe. It can cause the revolver to malfunction, and become a paper weight... But then... that's a war story.. Best of luck Glenn D.

September 24, 2011, 07:55 PM	#24
AKsRul.e Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2010 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 234	dahermit - your pictures are too small to see any defects in the parts. If the 36 is such poor quality why not just buy another Taurus.

September 25, 2011, 05:29 AM	#25
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	I guess my 36 no dash was made on a different day as after forty years it's still like new. No need to change springs as it has the feel I want in a SD revolver. The Kuhnhausen S&W shop manual well show you how to straighten the hammer and trigger pins and shim as required.