Calling Upon LR shooters, Bart B KraigWY ect.

[Bart B.]

Service rifles used in NRA competitions don't use open sights any more. That ended a hundred years ago.

[4runnerman]

Edward-223 is as accurate or more than a 308 at 600 yards?. Where in the world did that come from. Maybe on a perfectly calm day,moon just right,sun lined up just right with the planets. I have never heard something so silly.
This is why the 308 dominates FTR Class. Your choices are 223 or 308. Very,Very few choose the 223. Now while the 223 is very accurate it is so limited in wind conditions. I shoot both in FTR and I can tell you at 600 yards the 223 fails to even come close to the 308. A 60 gn bullet compared to a 175 gn bullet with a much Higher BC. There is no comparison.

[Bart B.]

4runnerman, if the .223's barrel was a foot less than 600 yards long and held fairly still, it would probably shoot no worse than 1/4" groups that far away using a micro nuclear device in the case having enough energy to push the bullet out a barrel that long.

[HKFan9]

My ARs are used for work / home defense they are set up as such, not long range precision guns.

I am not a novice shooter, and deal with firearms on a daily basis, but as I said it's more in defense type shooting not long range. I understand what you say about the .223 and I agree but it's not the setup I chose. I have been shooting .308s since I was 12 for deer hunting, flinching, specially with a 20lns rig is a non issue.


As I stated I was looking to get this rig up and going for distance, I have shot 500-800 yards before, but doing and truly understanding is a completely different ball game.

[kraigwy]

I can tell you at 600 yards the 223 fails to even come close to the 308. A 60 gn bullet compared to a 175 gn bullet with a much Higher BC. There is no comparison.

I don't know of anyone who shoots 60 gr. 223s at 600. What you see is 80-90 gr bullets and they do quite well.

The 80 have about the same BC as the 175 gr bullets, and the 90s exceed the BC of 175s.

Don't you think there is a reason that 308 service rifles are rare as hen's teeth in Service Rifle High Power now days where the range is 200, 300, and 600 yards.

[Bart B.]

Yes, there is a reason. It has nothing to do with the inheirant accuracy of the ammo.

[edward hogan]

In 2007, I attended a Service Rifle workshop which consisted of morning instruction and theory, and afternoon actual match. It was a Great Experience. The Double High Master who ran the event was a great guy who shot a plain-jane RRA NM rifle and stated one year he purposely didn't even clean the barrel fouling just to see if it mattered. It didn't. No maybes about it, the guy could shoot.

My eyes were opened that day to the capabilities of the AR-15. I have defined previously the factors that matter, and they apply to a bolt rifle or Armalite type: barrel length, twist, and heavy BTHP ammunition. 77gr is the heaviest can be assembled to keep magazine feed functions. Precision handloads offer greater versatility than factory match.

There is a famous quote about contempt prior to investigation...

If HK-Fan has an AR with a 20" barrel that will handle 75/77 gr bullets, and some 1:9 twist will, most won't; that rifle might be the ticket for eliminating all the variables (mostly) other than wind... Wind is really the only Variable the handloading rifleman cannot control.

Basically, you tune your rifle to deliver the best groups at 100/200 and prove the repeats and movement values of your scope's turrets, learn your load's ballistics, leaving learning to read mirage and wind. Going with the .223rem in a quality configuration, there is less gun-action to distract from holding steady follow-through or to disrupt position while shot is transiting the barrel.

Who has unlimited funds for this hobby? Personally, I would buy precision loading gear and maybe the new Sierra ballistics program and use their accuracy load with their 77matchking bullet and take control of all the variables I could influence.

As far as scopes go, have you "proved" your turret movements? Do they deliver that .1mrad rate of movement consistently? Do you need to dial past your value and return to it to unload springs? The 5-20x razor should be really amazing. Try it on your AR-15.

[Bart B.]

Check the match scores from the NRA Nationals comparing match rifle to service rifle ones and see which ones are bigger. It's rare to see a .223 cartridge shot in the match rifles but most service rifles are now using it.

Checking a scope's adjustments for errors in the 1/4 click range requires something whose resolution is one-third that amount. So, it takes a rifle and ammo with at worst accuracy level in the sub 1/12th MOA range to measure the repeatability of a 1/4 MOA per click scope. Which is why I use a bench collimator to measure several scopes' repeatability and accuracy in their adjustments. One can be made at home that's accurate to 1/100th MOA. An optical collimator in the muzzle is a lot better than shooting bullets which typically has more human error introduced than anything else.

[4runnerman]

Kraigwy- I don't doubt you for Service Rifles. However in FTR Class 308's domminate the 223 10 to one. My second to last Match in Grand Forks ( F Class Open) there was 3 people there shooting 600 yards with 55 gn bullets in 223.
They did place very good, but nothing compared to the 308's. Now I only shot FTR for one year and I can tell you to see a 223 out there was rare. If it would only be 300 yards and the ability to change rifles for the 600 yards there would be more. How ever what you shoot at 300,you also have to shoot at 600. No changing rifles mid match. I also have shot my 223 at 600 with a 75 gn bullet, Was good,but not as good as the 308 with a 155 or 175 g bullet. Never did try the 90 as you said-Maybe should give them a try too.

[Jimro]

4runnerman,

A lot of F/TR matches go beyond 600, and the targets have smaller scoring rings than High Power. So factor in the longer distance and it becomes clear why the 308 is more popular than the 223, and it is for all the same reasons why 308 dominates Palma.

And honestly, on my belly, with a scope and a bipod, I'd choose 308 too. From a sling with irons? 223 every time.

Jimro

[edward hogan]

We're friends here right?

I am sure Bart has forgotten 10x what little I know about shooting...

Resolution though, has nothing to do with "proving" scope turret movement values. Can do it using a collimator/boresighter like the Bushnell 74-3333, or on the paper with a box test shot at decent distance where/when wind is not a big factor. The collimator could show any movement errors. Just because the mfr says the reticle moves .25moa or .1mil don't mean it is true; might move, likely does with a bit different value. So, for real world results you prove your scope.

For sure I never mentioned any lightweight bullets in the .223. I still have some USA/FAE in 55gr, but 69gr bthp is the lightest I have ever loaded for AR use.

Want to learn the wind at 500/600, shoot a lighter bullet. Never heard of anyone shooting anything lighter than 69gr at 300yds, or even 200yds. Army Marksmanship Unit has won consistently using the 77gr at all ranges. Others vary their ammo according to distance. Of course, not applicable for H-K. Do remember seeing an officer stationed in Iraq/Afghanistan posting on the NM board that he really wished for a 20" rifle because the M4 barrel would not group/hit past 300/350yds. The 77gr match ammo is in regular mil inventory, being what is spec'd for the M249 squad mg; or was at the time.

Anyone shooting light bullets in a match of 200yds plus is very casual in their approach. At one time, I owned an LMT 14.5" upper and one barreled with a Noveske Aghan (I think) same oal stainless match barrel. Not really short enough for any advantage over a 20" rifle configured upper. Accurate, but limited, plus they beat-up my brass and were a bit more to control. Long gone, except I kept the LMT upper receiver and BCG and use them with a SR match barrel and free float tube.

I have 2 primo longrange ctgs to choose from in the 6mm/.22-250Ai or 6XC Long, and .260rem. Choosing a .308win for 1000yd shooting is like choosing a 5lb trigger with lots of creep and over-travel. Can be done, will test your ability to use it; but why select it if serious results are your goal? There is no award given for overcoming most handicaps on the way to excellence; just recognition of that excellence. What are the hot competitors shooting? It ain't the .308win unless rues require...

[Bart B.]

Edward, I was the first person on this planet to shoot the 5.56mm M16 across the standard rifle couse, the National Match Course of 50 shots, in the USA. Only because I finished the 600 yard line on the first relay before anyone else. Happened in 1971 at the Nationals at Camp Perry. Our rifles had Redfield International rear sights giving about 1/3 MOA per click with the short sight radius.

The USN Team along with the Army and Marine Corps Teams all used Sierra's 52-gr. hollow point match bullet. That's all that anyone used for the first few years of 5.56 NATO rounds allowed in service rifle matches; both NRA and DCM. No other really accurate commercial bullets were available. Heavier bullets came around years later. Some folks reloading those bullets had them stick in the thick cardboard target backing used at some ranges' 600 yard lines. The pit crew pulled them out like darts from a dartboard.

Resolution? Who said anything about resolution in scopes. Do you think I use a collimator to measure resolution? Calculate approximate resolution using the Rayleigh criterion formulas.

Nobody can measure scope adjustment value repeatability to less than 1/4 MOA shooting groups unless the shoot their stuff no worse than 1/12th MOA and all group centers are equidistant and same angles from relative point of aim. Boxing a scope resolves adjustment repeatabiliy no smaller than the biggest group shot.

Hot competitors choose the .308 over the 22's when either are allowed for long range matches. NRA long range matches are shot at 800 through 1000 yards. Midrange is 500 and 600 yards.

[4runnerman]

jimro-Yes you are correct on going past 600 yards, My point is even at 600 yards the 223 is out gunned by the 308. I have my 223 and it is probebly the most accurate rifle I have ( Barring the 6br) at ranges under 300 yards. After that the 308 takes over. The 223, like the 6PPC is very accurate but it is limited in it's range. Not sure is if there is a place where there is no wind ever?. Then the 223 would be great. I don't want to trash the 223, because it is my second most liked and shot rifle I own. I will never give it up. I don't shoot the 308 every weekend but I do the 223. It is just pure fun

[HKFan9]

I like both rounds, but the rifle I bought at a deal came in .308 or .300 WM. I honestly bought the gun because I liked it, and I work in the industry for a master Kimber dealer and I am on their pro-staff... AKA I didn't pay close to retail for it.

I like controlled round feed admittedly, and the Mcmillian stock. When weighing my options... the Kimber is not a TRUE blue printed action, however they do hand finish the chamber, true the bolt face, and hand lap the lug, which was more than I would be getting on a rifle of similar price range (for me).

I chose .308 because I expected to shoot primarily UNDER 1000 yards, and I am not looking to get the tightest competition scores either. Basically just want to learn to hit a man or coyote sized target at varrying ranges, and just punch holes in paper targets or ring gongs. .300WM would have been more recoil, more ammo cost, and not needed at the ranges I intended it for.

I am saying my NEXT step will be 600 yards, not my goal. I have shot 5.56 AR's at 300-500-600 yards before, messing with different scopes reticles ect. Right now my AR's have 14.5'' or SHORTER barrels, so LR rigs they are not, however my BCM HSP Jack Carbine will shoot a pretty tight group when you slap a bipod and variable scope on it.

[Jimro]

4runnerman,

My point is even at 600 yards the 223 is out gunned by the 308. I have my 223 and it is probebly the most accurate rifle I have ( Barring the 6br) at ranges under 300 yards. After that the 308 takes over.

For target shooting I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around that statement. Ballistic energy and time of flight numbers may be used to make an "outgunned" argument, but they cannot be made to make a "more accurate" argument. I agree that the 308 is generally more accurate past 600, I have a very hard time thinking that the 223 is outgunned by the 308 past 300 when so many matches have shown otherwise.

Of course others have explained better than I why 223 dominates competitions out to 600 (especially service rifle) and why 308 dominates Palma and Long Range F/TR Class. http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.de/...mpetition.html

Jimro

[4runnerman]

Jimro-you may be correct, I can only comment on what I see and hear. As I stated , I shot FTR for only one year. 223's were there, but few and far in between. I live in ND. Wind is here5 days a week. The 223 was just not cutting it. I also went to the Grand Masters Comp in Montana last year, again 223's there but far and few. A custom 308 took first place. I do not know how far down the list is was before the first 223 was mentioned.

[Jimro]

4runnerman,

Head to a 200, 300, 600 High Power match sometime. You'll see a lot more 223s than 308s on the line in that sport, even now that AR-10s are considered a legal service rifle people just haven't gone back to the 308 since fast twist barrels were paired with heavy for caliber match bullets.

For Long Range High Power (1000 yards) that is where you see the 308s in M1A and AR-10 flavors dominate the service rifle class.

Now people have argued for years about whether that is proof the 223 is more "inherently accurate" or whether the AR is just easier to shoot for 88 shots, but either way the scores have gone up for the 223, breaking 308 records the same way the 308 broke the 30-06 records.

Jimro

[Bart B.]

Accuracy difference across all NRA and CMP service semiauto rifles through 600 yards is equal when properly tested. But the milder recoil of the 22 caliber ones means their muzzle axis angle moves less during barrel time and that time is shorter than that of the 30 caliber ones. Their cone of fire has a smaller angle which produces better scores on bullseye targets.

Same reason why the smaller 26 caliber rounds replaced the big 30 caliber ones to win NRA 'any rifle' matches in spite of having the same inheirant accuracy of the 30 caliber magnums with equal wind bucking bullets. Long and heavy 22 caliber bullet BC's drop fast after 600 yards. Which is why long and heavy 30 caliber ones are favored for long range service rifle matches; their BC's drop very little past 600 yards.

Even 22 rimfire bullets at 100 yards have the same wind drift but less accuracy in MOA as .308 Win ones at 800 yards and over twice the barrel time. But their cone of fire is smaller in angle due to much less recoil so their groups on targer are smaller MOA wise. The X ring at 800 is 1.25 MOA and 1.00 MOA at 100. X count in smallbore is higher than high power in prone matches.

Prior to the mid 1980's when smallbore ammo was equally accurate (1/2 MOA or better) their high X-count 100 yard prone records still stand, they're much higher than all the high power long range prone ones. Three cheers for mild and minimum recoil.

[Emory Bored]

This discussion is pretty much all greek to me. How does one go about finding one of these rifle matches. Lord knows one doesn't need another hobby but never the less etc.

[Bart B.]

Google "nra competitions" where several links get you to good information to learn about it.

Then download:

http://www.nrapublications.org/wp-co...E_Download.pdf

as it lists matches around the USA for different types of competitions. Find one near you then bring a pair of binoculars to it to watch what happens. Ask questions about it to competitors; they'll take you under their wing and maybe make a national champion out of you.