Why does the secret service use the 357sig round?

Super-Dave · May 10, 2010, 07:03 AM

Why does the secret service use the 357 sig round?

CWPinSC · May 10, 2010, 07:10 AM

Reason One: They got the pistols and/or ammo cheap from the manufacturer.
Reason Two: They want to shoot through doors and stuff.
Reason Three: They want to kill the BG and his partner behind him with one shot.

Isn't the .357 SIG basically a 9mm weight/size bullet driven by a .40 S&W powder charge? (correct me if I'm wrong) Fast and lightweight. I can't really see the advantage.

rbernie · May 10, 2010, 07:14 AM

Intermediate barrier penetration, e.g. auto glass and sheetmetal.

Deputy Dog · May 10, 2010, 07:30 AM

The guns and ammo combination make one hell of a combination.... With a simple swap of the barrel, you have two calibers in one gun, uses the same magazines and slide and springs.... Colorado SP use them, and switch over to the .40 during urban patrols.... At least they use too, dont know if they still do or not, thats what their recruiter told me on the phone when I was interested in going out there before I met my wife a few years back...
He was telling me that with the .357 sig rounds, they were great for stopping Tractor Trailor Truck, as in they would go through the set of duallies on one side of the truck, and penatrate a set on the other side of the truck.... But the cartridge was to potent for in an urban enviroment, due to over penetration through walls etc. etc....

Deputy Dog

TinyDee · May 10, 2010, 07:46 AM

The 357 has become the standard for many law enforcement groups. It is effective and more of a sure kill than most others.

WC145 · May 10, 2010, 07:50 AM

Maybe because it works well for them.
The Federal Air Marshals also use it, as well as the Maine Warden Service. The point of the 357Sig was to get .357mag performance out of a high capacity auto. They nearly accomplished it, the 357Sig doesn't quite duplicate the .357mag but it is close and is a powerful, flat shooting cartridge. I know that many Maine Game Wardens had concerns about switching from their magnums but I've yet to meet one that hasn't been pleased with the 357Sig.

I've carried the 357Sig on duty and shot it through walls (125gr Gold Dot) and did not find over penetration to be a problem. With modern bullet technology I think over penetration issues are pretty much a thing of the past, though I'm sure people will continue to equate high velocity with over penetration thanks to the legacy of ball ammo, particularly 9mm.

Crapulence · May 10, 2010, 09:17 AM

It is very accurate and in theory should feed more reliably than other rounds due to the bottleneck design. If you search for ".357 sig ballistics" you will find some good reasons for its adoption. Over penetration should not be a big issue with good quality hollowpoints , unless the bullet passes through a hard barrier first, then all bets are off.

Yea, I'm a bit biased since one of my pistols is a .357 sig.

Crosshair · May 10, 2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Intermediate barrier penetration, e.g. auto glass and sheetmetal.

Exactly. That is one primary reason it is chosen. Just like the 38 Super used to be popular with some cops because it went through car doors better than 38 Special rounds did.

Brian Pfleuger · May 10, 2010, 12:50 PM

It replicates the performance of the legendary "man-stopper" 357mag, 125gr round, with more than double the capacity of a revolver and, in fact, a performance ADVANTAGE over a typical "carry" revolver due to the ease of carrying a firearm with a longer barrel than a comparably "carry-able" revolver would have.

Used to be that the 357mag was THE man-stopper. Now a days, "slow and heavy" is the rally cry of those who abhor the "fast and light" mantra. Seems "fast and light" isn't as effective as the legend of the 357mag would have you believe, and least in the minds of the "slow and heavy" crowd.

Recoil close to 9mm, power like a 357mag, and capacity of a 40SW. What's not to like?

Deputy Dog · May 10, 2010, 01:22 PM

I had a 229 with both barrels, got rid of it and the .357 sig barrel and kick my self for doing so... I just wish the ammo wasnt so darn expensive, I went out and got another 229 in .40, contiplating getting the .357 sig barrel again and hoping I hit the lottery so I can afford to shoot it.... If I am not mistaken, when I first bought the other 229, I could of sworn the chart said:
.357 Sig 125 GR FMJ = between 1330 FPS - 1550 FPS with 600 LBS PPSi...
I could be wrong,

Deputy Dog

LOUcifer · May 10, 2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Recoil close to 9mm, power like a 357mag, and capacity of a 40SW. What's not to like?

Peetza,

While I agree with most of this statement...the biggest point I do not!

The .357sig recoil is nothing like the 9mm at all...it's a .40S&W charge with a 9mm bullet...it kicks way more than a 9mm. Quite the snappy little bugger...and I love every round of it

.357sig kicks arse!!!!!

ClydeFrog · May 10, 2010, 01:26 PM

The US Secret Service chose the .357sig round and SIG Sauer P229 duty pistol in the mid-late 1990s for many good reasons;
The .357sig feeds great and by design will cycle w/o problems in most semi auto pistols.
The .357sig offers a high level of KE and fast vel(fps) for it's size.
The .357sig works a lot like the .40S&W or 9mmNATO and pistol magazines can hold 14-16 rounds. That could be a big + for a FAM or USSS special agent.
The .357sig was available in the SIG P226/P229 platform which was already proven in military-US law enforcement circles.
Large US law enforcement agencies like the Texas DPS, VA State Police and the DE State Police already picked & deployed SIG P226/P229 .357sig with great results. The DE State Police was the 1st major LE agency to use it.
The .357sig in most duty rounds is accurate and offers great marksmanship.

Top firearms/tactics instructor John Farnam, uses a .357sig in a DAK SIG Sauer. Other highly rated trainers carry or advocate the .357 sig too.

CF
ps: Massad Ayoob wrote of 2 Texas DPS troopers who were in a gunfight with a subject inside a large truck/18 wheeler. One veteran DPS trooper's .45acp SIG pistol had 8 .45acp rounds fail to penetrate the cab door. The other new DPS trooper fired one round of .357sig from his new P229 and hit the subject ending the event.

Deputy Dog · May 10, 2010, 02:48 PM

I would have to say I remember it being alot more potent than the 9mm even 9mm +p, I would not doubt the power behind the .357 sig... I would carry the .357 sig if I could afford to shoot it more often, I would definately carry it.... With a good hollow point, 12 round magazines and a holy cow was that accurate Batman, out of the box accuracey someone was right, how could you go wrong?

Deputy Dog

**Tom Servo** · May 10, 2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

The .357sig feeds great and by design will cycle w/o problems in most semi auto pistols.

The bottlenecked case really helps. I can't help thinking it would make a phenomenal subgun/carbine round.

CWPinSC · May 10, 2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

It replicates the performance of the legendary "man-stopper" 357mag, 125gr round,

Only in that weight. But do many shoot that lightweight bullet in .357 mag.? .357 mag. is designed to push a heavy bullet at major velocity - why not take advantage of that and use something like 158 gr.? Ballistics show that is STILL a major "stopper".

I carry a .40 S&W using Corbon DPX - exactly what would the advantage be for me to switch to a .357 SIG?

Brian Pfleuger · May 10, 2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUcifer

The .357sig recoil is nothing like the 9mm at all...it's a .40S&W charge with a 9mm bullet...it kicks way more than a 9mm. Quite the snappy little bugger...and I love every round of it

You disagree because you misinterpret.

I didn't say "like", I said "close to". The recoil of the 357sig is CLOSER to 9mm than it is to any of the other major calibers, except 40SW, and it is LOWER than 40SW in most opinions.

DBAR · May 10, 2010, 04:28 PM

It's a matter of opinion. That's why we all have different calibers. I've always considered the 45 acp perfect for defensive purposes, and the 9mm was always good for my 3 Gun matches. I've had a few .40's along the way, but never really fell in love with that caliber. Now, I've got a Sig P229 SAS Gen II on order, and it's chambered for the .357 Sig. Years ago, the .357 Magnum with a 125gn HP coming out of a 4 inch revolver was considered the best "one shot, man stopper". The 357 Sig comes close to the ballistics created by the .357 Magnum, and in the P229, you get a 12+1 capacity. The gun and bullet combination offers great accuracy, reliability, capacity, and the ballistic performance you'd want if you needed it.

I'm pretty sold on it....

DBAR

Crosshair · May 10, 2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Only in that weight. But do many shoot that lightweight bullet in .357 mag.? .357 mag. is designed to push a heavy bullet at major velocity - why not take advantage of that and use something like 158 gr.? Ballistics show that is STILL a major "stopper".

*Raises hand*

I certainly do as far as defensive purposes. Against people, all that extra weight gets you is a bunch of overpenitration. The fast, lightweight slug has plenty of velocity to reliably expand while giving good penetration.

DBAR · May 10, 2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

I certainly do as far as defensive purposes. Against people, all that extra weight gets you is a bunch of overpenitration. The fast, lightweight slug has plenty of velocity to reliably expand while giving good penetration.

I agree. The 125 gn HP's are designed to drop their energy quickly. The combination of the projectile, and the velocity that it's traveling at, are what makes either of the 357's so effective against soft tissue targets. It's also what allows them to penetrate barriers, and still do a decent job. If you increase the weight of the projectile, you'll get deeper penetration with soft tissue targets, but I'm not sure if that's what I would want unless I was hunting.

DBAR

AK103K · May 10, 2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

The .357sig recoil is nothing like the 9mm at all...it's a .40S&W charge with a 9mm bullet...it kicks way more than a 9mm.

Well, that all depends. If your shooting generic 9mm, yes, its a little snappier. If your shooting +P, or +P+, then your probably not going to notice much if any difference (assuming we're comparing the standard 357SIG loadings).

According to the lab boys at Speer (in response to a question I asked), the 357SIG is a 40000psi round. Normal 9mm is 35000psi, +P is 38000psi, and +P+ is 40000psi. Bullets of the same weight driven at the same pressures/velocities, will perform basically the same. So +P+ 9mm and 357SIG in its standard loadings are pretty much in the same ball park.

I have 357SIG's in a number of SIG pistols and a Glock 31 in the caliber. The Glock is noticeably snappier when shot, and I believe its due to the differences in the guns weight. My 31's slide is also getting beat up pretty good on the underside from impacting the locking block. Supposedly its normal, but it also doesnt seem to be stopping like I've been told, so we'll see. The SIG's dont seem to be affected at all.

Quote:

Only in that weight. But do many shoot that lightweight bullet in .357 mag.? .357 mag. is designed to push a heavy bullet at major velocity - why not take advantage of that and use something like 158 gr.? Ballistics show that is STILL a major "stopper".

This is the usual response by the 357MAG crowd in regards to the 357SIG. Not discounting any of it, just that you dont see to many 357MAGS with a 15 round capacity (in a 9mm sized gun) shooting 125 grain, let alone 158 grain bullets these days.

The 357SIG does pretty much duplicate the 357MAG round that was most used and accepted in law enforcement (and elsewhere) as the #1 loading (and stopper) in 4" duty guns of the time. It fills a niche, and it does it well. Nothing wrong with the .40's or .45's either, although I have personally seen the .45's not penetrate car doors, and it was one of the reasons I switched over to 357SIG.

**Tom Servo** · May 10, 2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

The recoil of the 357sig is CLOSER to 9mm than it is to any of the other major calibers, except 40SW, and it is LOWER than 40SW in most opinions.

The big difference for me is the character of the recoil. I get less muzzle-flip in an equivalent gun than I do with .40 S&W.

Brian Pfleuger · May 10, 2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

The big difference for me is the character of the recoil. I get less muzzle-flip in an equivalent gun than I do with .40 S&W.

As do I. I did a little testing the other day. From a distance of about 20 feet I can dump the entire mag in my g33 very rapidly and never miss an 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of paper. The muzzle rises only slightly above the top of the paper when aiming at the middle.

WESHOOT2 · May 11, 2010, 02:37 AM

The FBI uses the 357 SIG for its ability to be chambered in guns that most any size hand can handle, and the cartridge's proven effectiveness.

I mean, even though they need to outfit a pile of people, they had other choices (and I know for a fact some of those choices were less costly).

WC145 · May 11, 2010, 05:12 AM

Quote:

The FBI uses the 357 SIG for its ability to be chambered in guns that most any size hand can handle, and the cartridge's proven effectiveness.

I believe the FBI uses .40's and .45's.

Nasty · May 11, 2010, 06:48 AM

The 125gr .357 magnum loading is known for flame cutting the topstrap in revolvers. This is a non-issue in autoloaders. The manstopping record of the loading is well documented.

If I were faced with the requirements the Secret Service has (well planned assaults, potential for dealing with body armor, need for concealment, etc), I would make the same choice.

May 10, 2010, 07:14 AM	#3
rbernie Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2004 Location: Plain Ol', TX Posts: 713	Intermediate barrier penetration, e.g. auto glass and sheetmetal. __________________ -A conclusion is not a destination, it's simply a convenient place to stop thinking.- -Reading a thing doesn't automatically make it so; repeating it doesn't necessarily make it any truer.- -Every Texan should be a member of the Texas State Rifle Association.

May 10, 2010, 12:50 PM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	It replicates the performance of the legendary "man-stopper" 357mag, 125gr round, with more than double the capacity of a revolver and, in fact, a performance ADVANTAGE over a typical "carry" revolver due to the ease of carrying a firearm with a longer barrel than a comparably "carry-able" revolver would have. Used to be that the 357mag was THE man-stopper. Now a days, "slow and heavy" is the rally cry of those who abhor the "fast and light" mantra. Seems "fast and light" isn't as effective as the legend of the 357mag would have you believe, and least in the minds of the "slow and heavy" crowd. Recoil close to 9mm, power like a 357mag, and capacity of a 40SW. What's not to like? __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

May 10, 2010, 01:26 PM	#12
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Why the US Secret Service issues the .357sig/P229... The US Secret Service chose the .357sig round and SIG Sauer P229 duty pistol in the mid-late 1990s for many good reasons; The .357sig feeds great and by design will cycle w/o problems in most semi auto pistols. The .357sig offers a high level of KE and fast vel(fps) for it's size. The .357sig works a lot like the .40S&W or 9mmNATO and pistol magazines can hold 14-16 rounds. That could be a big + for a FAM or USSS special agent. The .357sig was available in the SIG P226/P229 platform which was already proven in military-US law enforcement circles. Large US law enforcement agencies like the Texas DPS, VA State Police and the DE State Police already picked & deployed SIG P226/P229 .357sig with great results. The DE State Police was the 1st major LE agency to use it. The .357sig in most duty rounds is accurate and offers great marksmanship. Top firearms/tactics instructor John Farnam, uses a .357sig in a DAK SIG Sauer. Other highly rated trainers carry or advocate the .357 sig too. CF ps: Massad Ayoob wrote of 2 Texas DPS troopers who were in a gunfight with a subject inside a large truck/18 wheeler. One veteran DPS trooper's .45acp SIG pistol had 8 .45acp rounds fail to penetrate the cab door. The other new DPS trooper fired one round of .357sig from his new P229 and hit the subject ending the event.

May 11, 2010, 02:37 AM	#23
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	answer The FBI uses the 357 SIG for its ability to be chambered in guns that most any size hand can handle, and the cartridge's proven effectiveness. I mean, even though they need to outfit a pile of people, they had other choices (and I know for a fact some of those choices were less costly). __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" Last edited by WESHOOT2; May 11, 2010 at 02:39 AM. Reason: cough.....lawsuit......

May 10, 2010, 07:03 AM	#1
Super-Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 795	Why does the secret service use the 357sig round? Why does the secret service use the 357 sig round? __________________ If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever. George Orwell

May 10, 2010, 07:10 AM	#2
CWPinSC Junior member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 863	Reason One: They got the pistols and/or ammo cheap from the manufacturer. Reason Two: They want to shoot through doors and stuff. Reason Three: They want to kill the BG and his partner behind him with one shot. Isn't the .357 SIG basically a 9mm weight/size bullet driven by a .40 S&W powder charge? (correct me if I'm wrong) Fast and lightweight. I can't really see the advantage.

May 10, 2010, 07:30 AM	#4
Deputy Dog Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2009 Posts: 247	The guns and ammo combination make one hell of a combination.... With a simple swap of the barrel, you have two calibers in one gun, uses the same magazines and slide and springs.... Colorado SP use them, and switch over to the .40 during urban patrols.... At least they use too, dont know if they still do or not, thats what their recruiter told me on the phone when I was interested in going out there before I met my wife a few years back... He was telling me that with the .357 sig rounds, they were great for stopping Tractor Trailor Truck, as in they would go through the set of duallies on one side of the truck, and penatrate a set on the other side of the truck.... But the cartridge was to potent for in an urban enviroment, due to over penetration through walls etc. etc.... Deputy Dog

May 10, 2010, 07:46 AM	#5
TinyDee Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 351	The 357 has become the standard for many law enforcement groups. It is effective and more of a sure kill than most others.

May 10, 2010, 07:50 AM	#6
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,836	Maybe because it works well for them. The Federal Air Marshals also use it, as well as the Maine Warden Service. The point of the 357Sig was to get .357mag performance out of a high capacity auto. They nearly accomplished it, the 357Sig doesn't quite duplicate the .357mag but it is close and is a powerful, flat shooting cartridge. I know that many Maine Game Wardens had concerns about switching from their magnums but I've yet to meet one that hasn't been pleased with the 357Sig. I've carried the 357Sig on duty and shot it through walls (125gr Gold Dot) and did not find over penetration to be a problem. With modern bullet technology I think over penetration issues are pretty much a thing of the past, though I'm sure people will continue to equate high velocity with over penetration thanks to the legacy of ball ammo, particularly 9mm.

May 10, 2010, 09:17 AM	#7
Crapulence Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Manly Flower Mound Texas Posts: 126	It is very accurate and in theory should feed more reliably than other rounds due to the bottleneck design. If you search for ".357 sig ballistics" you will find some good reasons for its adoption. Over penetration should not be a big issue with good quality hollowpoints , unless the bullet passes through a hard barrier first, then all bets are off. Yea, I'm a bit biased since one of my pistols is a .357 sig.

May 10, 2010, 01:22 PM	#10
Deputy Dog Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2009 Posts: 247	I had a 229 with both barrels, got rid of it and the .357 sig barrel and kick my self for doing so... I just wish the ammo wasnt so darn expensive, I went out and got another 229 in .40, contiplating getting the .357 sig barrel again and hoping I hit the lottery so I can afford to shoot it.... If I am not mistaken, when I first bought the other 229, I could of sworn the chart said: .357 Sig 125 GR FMJ = between 1330 FPS - 1550 FPS with 600 LBS PPSi... I could be wrong, Deputy Dog

May 10, 2010, 02:48 PM	#13
Deputy Dog Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2009 Posts: 247	I would have to say I remember it being alot more potent than the 9mm even 9mm +p, I would not doubt the power behind the .357 sig... I would carry the .357 sig if I could afford to shoot it more often, I would definately carry it.... With a good hollow point, 12 round magazines and a holy cow was that accurate Batman, out of the box accuracey someone was right, how could you go wrong? Deputy Dog

May 10, 2010, 04:28 PM	#17
DBAR Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 941	It's a matter of opinion. That's why we all have different calibers. I've always considered the 45 acp perfect for defensive purposes, and the 9mm was always good for my 3 Gun matches. I've had a few .40's along the way, but never really fell in love with that caliber. Now, I've got a Sig P229 SAS Gen II on order, and it's chambered for the .357 Sig. Years ago, the .357 Magnum with a 125gn HP coming out of a 4 inch revolver was considered the best "one shot, man stopper". The 357 Sig comes close to the ballistics created by the .357 Magnum, and in the P229, you get a 12+1 capacity. The gun and bullet combination offers great accuracy, reliability, capacity, and the ballistic performance you'd want if you needed it. I'm pretty sold on it.... DBAR

May 11, 2010, 06:48 AM	#25
Nasty Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Posts: 323	The 125gr .357 magnum loading is known for flame cutting the topstrap in revolvers. This is a non-issue in autoloaders. The manstopping record of the loading is well documented. If I were faced with the requirements the Secret Service has (well planned assaults, potential for dealing with body armor, need for concealment, etc), I would make the same choice.