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October 23, 2013, 12:15 PM | #76 | ||
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October 23, 2013, 12:18 PM | #77 | |
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Your last post is literally "prove me wrong but you can't use a case that proves me wrong". Silliness. You've made concrete statements claiming certain statistics and facts but provided NO evidence to back up those statements. When asked to provide evidence, you present more statements of fact without evidence backing either them or your previous statements.
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October 23, 2013, 12:21 PM | #78 | |
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Read this article. Not only was the OC'er killed by his own gun - the sole objective in this theft/murder - but that same gun was used 7 hours later to kill a second person. The attacker didnt have a gun when he snatched the OC'ers pistol. |
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October 23, 2013, 12:24 PM | #79 |
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I seriously doubt anyone has good statistical evidence as to who a bad guy would shoot first. How would you ever know the number of crimes deterred by open carry compared to conceal carry?
Nevertheless, common sense tells me that a bad guy would rather chose an unarmed person over an armed one, other things constant. The bad guy would still have to be careful in the case of the unarmed because of the possibility of conceal carry. But, common sense also tells me that if the bad guy goes into a room of unarmed as well as armed people, the obviously armed would warrant first attention. |
October 23, 2013, 12:24 PM | #80 |
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Open Carry vs Concealed Carry - a comprehensive response to critics
I didn't state for a fact that he would. I only said that open carry gives the criminal more information to consider in the process of making such decision. You, yourself, have said that open carry conveys information.
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October 23, 2013, 12:28 PM | #81 |
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^Right.
Just as a OC may dissuade a crime, it may also persuade the criminal to act upon the OC'er first if they are determined - it goes both ways. You cant assume that OC helps to prevent crime, while ignoring that you may be the first victim if the criminal proceeds. |
October 23, 2013, 12:34 PM | #82 | |||
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It may be inconvenient, but there it is. Proponents of open carry long claimed that things like this never happen because criminals will be petrified with fear at the sight of someone carrying a pistol. Well, it happened. We could all learn something from it. Quote:
First off, "the left" were not the only ones pushing legislation. We strongly frown on such simplistic political stereotypes. Second, it's a cheap shot to compare experienced, pro-2A individuals advising caution and prudence to those who want to exploit a tragedy to push an anti-gun agenda. I would be offended, but I've gotten the exact same accusations from the pro-OC crowd on these same points numerous times over. They have a great deal of emotional investment in a questionable practice, and when the utility of that practice is threatened, the mud starts flying. If we (or anyone else) is to be convinced, you need to use verifiable facts to drive your points home, and you need to stop castigating your allies.
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October 23, 2013, 12:36 PM | #83 |
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Open Carry vs Concealed Carry - a comprehensive response to critics
In any case, IdahoCarry, you billed this as "a comprehensive response to critics [of open carry]." I don't see that you've lived up to that billing.
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October 23, 2013, 12:59 PM | #84 | |
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October 23, 2013, 01:08 PM | #85 | ||
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Someone who does not like something and states their opinion about it: That's more or less synonymous with someone who opposes it. That's the "jury" you yourself said you were addressing, so it's a bit disingenuous to turn around now and say that such people don't count.
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October 23, 2013, 01:28 PM | #86 | |
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preposition 1. (used for expressing motion or direction toward a point, person, place, or thing approached and reached, as opposed to from ): They came to the house. 2. (used for expressing direction or motion or direction toward something) in the direction of; toward Obviously I meant it as "toward", however, the jousting has proven fruitful because it has provided me with opportunities to gather opposing arguments and be prepared for my debate with our sheriff on the radio next month. He too opposes Open Carry even though it has been legal here since we became a state. He is not a Constitutional Sheriff, something we hope to rectify the next time he runs. |
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October 23, 2013, 01:32 PM | #87 | |
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Absolute silliness. The OC Movement is like an undisciplined teenager. Their parents are idiots and the enemy and all they want is to talk to their friends who will not judge and simply be cheerleaders for their every move. Fact is, we are not the enemy. We are your true best friends, wanting what's good for you because we're invested in you and what's good for you is good for us. Like the teenager though, you want to ignore and belittle us because you know better. You can't consider that maybe we've been down that road and found your arguments lacking. You can't consider that it's facts that we want rather than emotion, speculation and baseless rhetoric. I have no doubt that you'll tell all your friends in the OC movement that TFL and it's staff are the enemy and we oppose you. Fact is, we're not the enemy. I personally have no objection whatsoever to what ever kind of carry any person might choose to do. I think it's an issue of freedom and personal choice. You might consider that when we question your baseless rhetoric it might be for the purpose of helping you realize the problems in your argument so that you can make a better argument. It's not to hurt OC, it's to help OC activists to make better, more coherent, factually correct and convincing arguments. It's to expose faults in your thinking and statements that might have you reexamine your opinions in the light of true, logical, accepted debate practices so you don't look foolish when you confront the REAL enemy, the anti-gun movement. TFL exists to advance responsible firearms ownership. "Responsible" includes the very real responsibility to police our own and protect and enhance the public perception of gun owners. The OC Movement carries no such responsibility. It's goal is only it's own promotion and that pursued without any apparent perception that it may be doing more harm than good to not only it's own goals but to gun owners as a whole.
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October 23, 2013, 02:24 PM | #88 | |
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October 23, 2013, 02:50 PM | #89 | ||
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I don't see the relevance
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October 23, 2013, 02:55 PM | #90 | |
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1. I did not say he was not qualified to judge because he asked for facts. I said that he was unqualified to judge because he has a bias against OC. 2. Who are OC's "parents" and where did I call anyone and idiot or refer to them as an enemy? And why would I post on this forum if all I wanted to do was talk to my friends. I was looking for a good argument but name calling (silliness, undisciplined teenager) has not emanated from me in this forum. 3. I have never insinuated CCers were an enemy because more than 500 of my members CC as do I. However, I would like to see an example of your being our "true best friends" since all of the staffers here have taken my post as a personal affront rather than an opportunity to discuss the points raised. I enjoy the opportunity to respond and look forward to evidence of your being our "true best friends" by seeing one of the staffers saying something positive about OC. 4. Again "teenager"? I did provide facts and will provide more facts as I promised to do when my event comes to an end later this week. 5. Why would I make disparaging comments about TFL when you obviously have CCers who OC on this page. And even if you didn't, I enjoy the discourse. 6. "baseless rhetoric"? All of my points are based on fact and experience and, if I'm not ejected from this forum, we will prove that over the next couple of weeks. 7. That is why I am on this forum. 8. "The OC Movement carries no such responsibility." This last statement neutralizes your previous 7 points. You obviously have not been around many Open Carry groups. I would encourage you to go to this link and check out our rally at in the Capitol rotunda this year that had nearly 1000 in attendance. More than half of these folks OCed, many with long guns. We had numerous legislators who were there and it was partially because of these two well attended rallies that we were able to pass pro-gun legislation last year and will probably pass 3 of the 5 we are presenting this year. Check it out: https://www.facebook.com/braden.stor...2440549&type=3 |
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October 23, 2013, 02:58 PM | #91 | |
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October 23, 2013, 02:58 PM | #92 |
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What evidence?
I havnt seen one shred of it so far. The giant first post didnt contain anything but claims, no evidence, all of which should have been presented with the first post, not 3 days or a week later. Idaho's crime rate is lower than most everywhere, about 2 points below the national average of ~4.0/1000... why the big analysis and push for OC to deter your nearly non-existent crime-per-capita in the first place? OC makes sense for riding horses, being in unpopulated areas with large animals, being a LEO or soldier, and so on, but those tangible reasons for OCing have gone completely unmentioned in your lengthy list of suspect reasons to defend OC. You'd be much better served by arguing the practical virtues of OC instead of claiming it silently whisks away criminals. |
October 23, 2013, 03:12 PM | #93 | |
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Open Carry vs Concealed Carry - a comprehensive response to critics
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Of course no one can know that. And open carry is legal in Idaho. So there is no way to draw any kind of meaningful inference about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of concealed carry (or open carry) from crime numbers. What your post does illustrate is your tendency to misunderstand/misuse data. |
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October 23, 2013, 03:14 PM | #94 | |
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However, Brian, Frank and I have the experience and data to back up what we're saying. You don't appear to. That's the problem. It's also what we're trying to help you with. If you were to go to a real debate with an anti with your opening points, you'd get eaten alive. They've researched their points and they've got custom-massaged data. Even when they're being less than truthful, they make working the crowd an art. You have to arm yourself with facts, not opinions. Trust me. I've been there.
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October 23, 2013, 03:20 PM | #95 | |
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If you read my entire post, you would know that my closing statement is my primary purpose for Open Carrying, and it is working in Idaho. |
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October 23, 2013, 03:25 PM | #96 | |
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October 23, 2013, 03:27 PM | #97 | |
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October 23, 2013, 03:31 PM | #98 | ||
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October 23, 2013, 03:49 PM | #99 | |
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You've done no such thing. You've presented a list of studies from which you pulled a couple of facts which you then remove from their context and about which you make unwarranted assumptions. We are NOT against OC. Isn't that the EXACT point I made in my last post while predicting EXACTLY how you would portray us? It is indeed, and you've proven me correct. You can not adequately prove your point using established rules/criteria for factual debate so you decide that anyone who doesn't agree with you is the enemy. Classic tactic of the OC Movement. We're not new to this. Been down this road before.
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October 23, 2013, 04:03 PM | #100 | |
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Frank already debunked the Wright/Rossi study as it applies to your assertion that OC deters crime. The rest of those citations were met with a "Phooey" because there's no links to them, we cant review them, and 9 of the 13 listed are over 10 years old going back to 1997. Listing 13 aged articles in journals without the actual text is far from qualifying as any sort of evidence. You showed up empty handed and have remained that way. I managed to read through your entire post. There are so many faulty lines of logic in-the-moment perceptions its hard to decide which to refute first. The notion that OCing will somehow "naturalize" the population to seeing guns everywhere is foolhardy at best, and likely to stir those who oppose you into action against your cause at worst. In the end, you've shown up here on your first post making broad, assertive, unsubstantiated and romanticized opinions presented as fact. You spent a lot of time typing up that first post, but you didn’t do your homework. You should have studied this place more before posting. |
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