"Limp Wristing" as an acceptable failure mode.

[TailGator]

When I first got my G26 about 3 years ago, my daughter, then 20 years old, had some failures with it on her first subsequent trip to the range with me. I explained to her how a semi worked and why it needed a certain minimal amount of support in order to function properly. Being an engineering student, she understood immediately and has not had a failure since in innumerable trips to the range with and without her daddy, shooting the G26, a couple of my Berettas in different calibers, and some rental pistols.

Should I have gotten rid of the gun, gotten rid of the daughter, or done a little bit of teaching to fix the problem? Hint: Plan C worked pretty well - I kept a fine little carry pistol, and my daughter is an irreplaceable gem who, among her other fine qualities, is a pretty decent shooter.

[Crow Hunter]

Being an engineering student

Engineers are cool.

But female engineers are even cooler!

Congratulations and tell her to stick with it. I was talking to a recruiter the other day that was trying to lure me away from my current job. He said he was really having trouble finding people. He said that he estimated that the unemployment rate among engineers was 1% or less.

If she keeps it up and gets some internship/summer job experience she will have no trouble finding a job at all.

Again, congratulations and good job. We need more Americans willing to be engineers!

[.22lr]

TailGator,
What discipline of engineering? Truly, Electrical Engineering is the One True Path. The "lesser" engineers are okay too... I guess.

Tell her to stick with it. There are hard parts, but its nice to have an interesting job that pays decently. Also there is all of the respect and fame that comes with being an engineer... RPI promised a rock star life, is 10 years too late to request a refund?

VR

Matt

[Crow Hunter]

Truly, Electrical Engineering is the One True Path

Alright Sparky.

You have to have something "not quite right up there" to visualize all those little electrons running around.

I got lost about the time they got to transformers. I just smiled and nodded after that.

By the way, tell her to avoid the Automotive Industry. It does pay the best but the hours and stress can be a problem after a while. It does look VERY good on a resume though.

[TailGator]

We are wandering here a bit, boys, but she is in civil engineering, specializing in structural. She will finish her bachelor's in May, and she has taken so many grad level courses on the way to the bachelor's that she will be just one semester away from a master's, which she will complete in the fall after a summer internship.

So, yeah, I am a proud daddy. Now back to handguns before the mods raise some lumps on our heads. My point was that limp-wristing seems pretty real to me after my experience with my daughter, and I personally don't think that such a failure is necessarily an indictment of the pistol if a bit of thought and training corrects the problem. There are lots of machines that you can screw up if you don't know how to run them. There is such a thing as operator error.

[Dondor]

The funny thing is after reading 3 plus pages of limp wristing, engineering design principles, the how's and why's or why nots...

The solution to the problem...

Shoot a revolver. They are not subject to aforementioned "limp wristing," and are generally more reliable than a semi auto.

[44 AMP]

With all the talk about limpwristing, I'll repeat what I said in my above post: such a malfunction would most likely occur under extreme stress when an improper grip, likely one handed, is used.

That may be true, but what explains it happening on the range?

the fact is that individual guns have quirks. So to, do designs. Some guns just have to be held the "right way" (right for them) or they don't work properly and consistantly. The right way for gun A ser# xxx is (and should be) the right way for gun A ser# abc. But sometimes it isn't. And it ought to be the right way for gun B, C, D, & E, right? But somtimes, it isn't.

Certain techniques tend to work best for a larger range of guns than others. Some techniques for fine with many, but will not with one certain one.

The bottom line is (as I understand it) that semi autopistols are designed and built to recoil against something (your grip) for proper operation.

The example with the Desert Eagle is a perfect illustration. These guns have to be held a certain way when fired, or malfunctions will result. With the DE, its very definate, and pronounced. But then, the DE isn't a service pistol, Hollywood antics aside.

Now, maybe the GLock design makes them more prone to the "limp wristing" malfunction, I don't know. I have shot GLocks, and I have had them jam. I don't believe I "limp wristed" them, but on occasion, apparently, the Glock thought otherwise.

I shoot autos in calibers from .22 up through .45 Win Mag. From Rugers to Lugers to Auto Mags...been doing it for nearly 40 years. I think I know what I'm doing...and you know what? Some guns just have to be held a certain way, or they screw up. Others are completely insensitive to how they are held.

AS to the OP, is a "limp wristing" malfunction a valid excuse for unreliability in a defensive pistol? I would say no. There is no excuse for unreliability in a defensive pistol. There are only explanations.

Some machines will perform their intended tasks reliably only under certain condtions. Others will perform well under a much wider range of conditions. If one design won't meet your expectaions, choose another, and see if it will. Don't blame the gun (or its designers) if it doesn't live up to your expectations (which might be rather unreasonable from the designers point of view). Not everything is as good as everything else.

Can't find one that as good as you want? Build a better moustrap, or stop whining.

[Edward429451]

There is no excuse for unreliability in a defensive pistol. Limpwriting can't be blamed on the gun when practice practice practice will make it go away. Guns aren't something that can be warrantied because the user will not learn its function well enough to make it work for them.

You didn't return your first bike to the store because you wrecked on it did you? Some things have to be learned. Some mechanical things are better than others. Learn how to manage it or get rid of it. Don't be loose limbed with semi-autos, wield it.

[ZipnZim]

How "experienced"? More for 9mm.
There is obviously a problem with Glocks. Heavier recoil springs are a band-aid, almost a cosmetic fix, for a more fundamental problem. Apparently, some Glocks weren't "Perfection" when they left Glock.
When there is 3-4 thousand pounds of average pressure on the case head as it bears against the slide, 2-3 more pounds of spring tension are almost completely irrelevant. It doesn't influence the Length of Acceleration of the barrel and slide appreciably.
When the Length of Acceleration of the barrel and slide, exceeds the distance between the Unlocking Cam Surfaces at battery, the "Short Recoil" provision in the gun is, too short.
When "Short Recoil" is too short, breeching occurs early in the firing cycle. When breeching occurs early, case heads are unsupported while pressurized, because the breech is unlocked. When the breech is unlocked early, brass flows in unusual ways. Or it doesn't. Always.

[ERdoctorAZ]

Personally I do not think "limp wristing" is real. I own several guns, pistols etc and I have never been able to make one miss fireing by "limp wristing". If a gun failes to fire, its either dirty, broken, defective or you are just not pulling the triger!. Guns should go bang when you pull the triger whether you are break dancing, sitting down or using sign languaje while fireing!

[Mike Irwin]

One of the tests that we did on semi-autos when I was working for NRA was to intentionally limp wrist the gun to varying degrees.

Limp wristing is a real issue with some guns. On some samples we received we could easily induce failures when limp wristing.

I can't say, though, whether that was an issue simply for that particular gun, or whether it was endemic to the entire model line.

[P-990]

I don't know if it's an "acceptable" failure mode or what have you, but it sure does happen in my experience.

I used to run 9mm ammo that was not much hotter than needed to reliably cycle my Glock 17 in MY grip. Give one of my friends the same pistol and ammo and it would choke every time. Toss in some full service-power ammo and it would perk right along.

So I think it can vary from individual to individual. Both of my Glocks run for me with a thumb and trigger finger grip on just about anything I reload, and one is a 26. But neither will run for my girlfriend with full-power ammo and a two-handed grip. Go figure.

[pgdion]

Truly, Electrical Engineering is the One True Path.

Man .22lr, I have to agree with everything you're saying!
(another EE here, oh, and to the engineering student, same here, engineers are getting hard to find and recruiters are always calling, especially EE, seems everything is running on electronics these days).

Late to the game but I agree with your opening post too. IMO a failure is a failure, if it was caused by limp wristing, it's still a failure and is the result of a less than ideal gun design. If I shoot weak hand, I'd say I'm likely to limp wrist. I still expect my gun to work 100% (and it does).

[ZipnZim]

50,000 rounds, huh?
I'm sure those who have experienced case ruptures into the magazine wells of their Glocks, are comforted by your "data".

[AK103K]

With only coming up on 50000, it seems mines not even close to ''experienced".

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-torture-test/

I am curious where your getting your "data" on all these ruptures into the mag wells. As far as I know, there were some .40's doing it on occasion for awhile there, but I thought they had addressed the chamber support issue, and its been pretty much a non issue since. I dont ever remember hearing of it being an issue with any of the other calibers.

[tahunua001]

I currently only own three handguns. a Ruger SR9C, a full sized XDM45 and a XDM45 compact. I intentionally limpwrist them every once in a while and have never had a failure with any of them, even the XDms with their much maligned grip safeties. I feel the same way as the OP. there is no excuse for a defensive/service/combat weapon to fail bacause the shooter hasn't flexed a particular set of muscles, period.

[puts on flame suit]
I believe that all of the guys that claim that it is limp wristing is because a bunch of Glock users don't want to admit that there may be a problem with...do I dare say it...a Glock? that's just pure blasphemy. if I had a dollar every time I saw a guy at the range shooting a broken gun because he was told that he was just limp wristing I would probably be halfway towards a new gun right now.

[AK103K]

I think you should do your best to try and make the gun fail in practice, so you know what to expect. I dont buy that because you succeed, that its a design fault in the gun.

I've carried 1911's more than anything else over the years. I was quite surprised when trying to get my Glock to fail using a weak grip/limp wrist, that I had more trouble with my old trusty Colt Commander, that had never failed me before. Then again, like my Glock, or any other gun Ive used, I never held the old Colt in a manner I likely never would either. If my hand and/or arm were that bad off, Id just switch hands anyway.

[Nnobby45]

That may be true, but what explains it happening on the range?

Range: New shooter with a Glock who lets the pistol recoil travel rearward fast enough so the slide doesn't have enough momentum. However fast the pistol is moving rearward, is how much velocity the slide no longer has.



Street: Tired cop 9 hrs. into a ten hour shift caught by surprise and forced to use one handed grip, often combined with ammo that produces enough slide velocity on range (where it never malfunctions), but not under the adverse conditions I described. Or any shooter in a situation where recoil can't be controlled because of poor shooting position. Problem largely eliminated with P+ ammo.

[Josh17]

Hmm interesting. So if using a 9MM Glock, does using higher powered 9mm rounds make it less likely to fail to eject?

I can understand how higher powered rounds will give more velocity to the slide when firing, but, if a "limp wrist" failure is caused due to the user not handling the recoil properly, thus causing the slide to close "too early" and the round gets stuck - if that's the case, would highered powered rounds make any difference in that case? I assume that's how a limp wrist fail to eject occurs, but I'm not sure.

If so, would higher powered Ammo make it less likely to fail due to improper grip? And if that answer is yes, is that because the higher powered round produces more velocity and "forces the slide open easier", therefore even if a person limp wrists a shot the gun will still most likely eject the round because the high powered round itself was strong enough to force itself to eject from the gun after firing?

[Nnobby45]

Hmm interesting. So if using a 9MM Glock, does using higher powered 9mm rounds make it less likely to fail to eject?

Higher slide velocity associated with "higher powered" rounds offers some insurance in shooting scenarios where a proper grip on the pistol may not be achieved. They aren't a cure for improper grip, or a malfunctioning pistol any more than adusting the sights are a cure for improper sight picture or trigger ull.

They do give the slide more reward velocity, which would be desireable with a less than proper grip.

Also, not all failures to cycle properly are attributed to the grip.

With re: to Josh 17's link, it doesn't sound like improper grip was the problem. Inexperienced shooters may have some initial "limpwristing" but an experienced shooter should not---at least not on the range under ideal conditions--however some low powered ammo can cause failure to cycle properly.

[Josh17]

So when referring to higher powered rounds, what normally does it base off of? The higher the grain? Muzzle velocity? Muzzle Energy? Or?

In my Glock 26, here is the 3 different Ammo I have used (reading the info off the Boxes):


#1. PMC Bronze. 9mm Luger 115 GRS. FMJ. Made in Korea. (THIS ROUND FAILED TO EXTRACT/EJECT ON EVERY OTHER SHOT!! So I stopped using the Ammo.)

#2. Magtech 'technologically advanced'. 7.45g (115gr.) FMC. Muzzle velocity 1135 FPS. Muzzle Energy 330 ft.lb. Made in Brazil. (When firing this round, I fired 40 rounds perfectly fine, but ONE round failed to extract when I shot one-handed. No problems with two-handed grip out of about 40 rounds)

#3. American Eagle, Federal Ammunition. 9mm Luger 115 Grain FMJ. Muzzle velocity 1180 FPS. Muzzle Energy 335 ft-lb. Made in USA. (I fired about 50-70 rounds of this Ammo, and not a single jam/failure to extract. Almost all the firing was using two handed grip. I did fire about 8-10 rounds one handed, and it did not induce a jam or failure to extract. So far 100% with this Ammo)

Does Federal Ammo seem to be the most suited for a G26 to avoid possible "limp wristing issues"? Out of the 3 Ammos I've tried, it has the highest Muzzle velocity, and Muzzle energy.

Or would something higher than the standard 115 grain help to reduce failure to extract on a Glock? (even if only helping a little) Does higher grain help reduce the chance of a failure to extract out of the slide?

[ZipnZim]

Denying that there is a problem with certain examples of Recoil Operated Self-Loading Pistols, is Not doing the Shooting Sports, Shooting Sports Enthusiasts, the Shooting Sports Equipment Manufacturers, the Public Image of Shooting, or the Tradition of Shooting, a Good Service.

That Paul Mauser lost an eye, and how he lost it, is a matter of Historical Record. (Got Google?)

You can watch Glocks, among others, flaming from the breech, and rupturing cases, on YouTube.

"Short Recoil" can be, too short.
When the Length of Acceleration of the barrel and slide, exceeds the distance between the Unlocking Cam Surfaces at battery, the recoil provision in the gun is too short.

[madmag]

Originally Posted by ZipnZim

When the Length of Acceleration of the barrel and slide, exceeds the distance between the Unlocking Cam Surfaces at battery, the recoil provision in the gun is too short.

I disagree with your physics...the definition is:
The slide length is determined by taking the square root the distance from the locking cam divided by the coefficient of friction of the slide, then multiply by .05 times the muzzle energy, then divide by the spring constant of the recoil spring multiplied by .08 times the mass of the slide.

PS:

[madmag]

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

Limp wristing is a real issue with some guns. On some samples we received we could easily induce failures when limp wristing.

I submit that limp wristing was not the issue, but just an indicator of an underlying problem. I think if you took the samples that failed and solved the underlying problem then they would not be limp wrist failures.

Limp wristing is an indicator of other problems, and should not be viewed as a problem by itself.

Added: Failures to (FTE) can be induced in several ways. Anything that retards the slide operation can induce a failure that looks like limp wristing. on a simple example we know if you have a 1911 setup for hot loads and then go to light loads you can get failures just like limp wristing, but that's really the fault of the set-up.

I have noticed through the years that most complaints about limp wrist failures seem to be when shooting target ammo. I think it's reasonable to assume that a lot of manufactures design their recoil systems to work best with hotter loads. I think this stems from the fact that they want to make sure they met the +P ammo load requirements.

Not saying all failures are due to light loads, but it is a factor.

The bottom line is I have always been able to solve issues with FTE or similar by going deeper into the problem.

[chadio]

Certain personality types and owners of certain brands seem to be quite sensitive to this whole 'limp wristing' concept... or is it just me?

I guess I should just be thankful that out of the semi-auto handguns that I own and the ones I shot in the Navy, they all ran, all the time. No matter who was shooting them, no matter how they were held. It may just have something to do with proven, time - tested design and good maintenance.

Although I appreciate the science of engineering and statistics, I am amused by the skepticism they bring forth, that this 'limp wristing' must be proven under ideal conditions or it may as well not exist or even be discussed.

Just to illustrate: Right now, where I live, on my property, it is definitely not raining. Can I prove this to you, using scientific data? ... or evidence? Hmm... not really... so, in essence, it actually could be raining here, right?

Come on, people - put on your big-boy panties and admit that some guns just run better than others, and don't need to be held a 'certain way' to cycle.