Announcement turned Discussion ... Heads Up! - Page 2

JohnPaul · July 30, 2009, 03:58 PM

...but I will thow in my 2% of a buck as well. Most of my photos are "photoshop'd" as well, mainly because my camera sucks. I am still somewhat confused on all the rules because its just a fun contest, I would enter regardless of "winning"-whatever that means. I just want to see what pictures people take and what they do with the picture. I have been vilified as much as congradulated on my pictures, not sure why, I work hard on them to make them look nice and people claim they are "fake" what does that mean. I took the photo myself and processed it myself

JohnPaul · July 30, 2009, 04:57 PM

... there is nothing stopping us members that just want to share our photos and others just for fun from having our own monthly "show us your photo's - anything goes july, aug...." post

ClemBert · July 30, 2009, 05:13 PM

My question regarding use of PhotoShop or some other image enhancing software had nothing to do with use of such software to manipulate the light settings etc. It had to do with use of such software to merge two or more separate images together. On the one hand you have some people who are using such software to merge or add text. This is not what I'm talking about. My example had to do with taking a photo of a firearm then making that photo's background transparent then overlaying it on top of another image. Personally, I don't care. I just want to know what the rules are. IMHO, a photo contest is about displaying your one photo image even if processed not merging two photos or images together then calling that your photo. Based on my understanding of the rules or at least the spirit of the rules image enhancement is fine as long as the data being manipulated is already in the photo's image file. In other words, you aren't adding something to the picture that wasn't already in the image file when you "snapped" the picture. I think some of the "photos" I've seen from a few people where they merge two or more images together looks pretty cool! However, in the spirit of a photo contest I don't think they have any place competing with other people who took "one snap" then posted the photo. We just need to know what you can and what you can't do...basically, the rules are vague in this regard. I am for an all out "do whatever" contest or even perhaps a separate contest where you can present these kind of photos.

**Bud Helms** · July 31, 2009, 04:27 AM

JohnPaul, I take just a tad exception to your position. Since you decided to chime in the way you did, I'll respond. If you don't know the difference between a brochure advertising the technical dimensions and capacities of a firearm vs a simple, clean, eye pleasing image of a firearm in some supporting environment, that won't let you look away, then by all means continue to submit your "brochures". I don't care.

What I do care about is your innocent act, as though you are being mistreated. I don't accept that. The rules in this contest have been applied fairly and evenly from the beginning of this contest. In fact this entire discussion is about relaxing the rules. Despite the rules, there is a spirit to this competition that apparently escapes some of us. I personally don't think you will ever be competitive in this contest with your text-on-image overlay of technical specs. But that's fine. You enter the pics you think will win and the rest of us will vote for the ones we like. If we ever have a technical brochure contest, you will kick butt. I could never produce some of the art I've seen here, but I have made a living as a technical writer and editor and I know the difference between a page from a catalog and an artistic image that needs no explanation to appreciate, when I see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnPaul

... there is nothing stopping us members that just want to share our photos and others just for fun from having our own monthly "show us your photo's - anything goes july, aug...." post

We are sharing ... one photo at a time. If you want to share more, that is why PhotoBucket exists. This is a contest.

ClemBert, I sympathize with you, friend. Our approach is, no matter how strict (or vague) the rules, they are the same for everyone. That may not satisfy the really talented, but the fact that I may not have a camera (or other equipment) good enough to compete with some here should not a problem for any one but me and no reason to change the rules. Have no fear: this isn't NASCAR and we won't get into trying to "even the playing field". That's waaay too much work.

To your point:

Quote:

We just need to know what you can and what you can't do...basically, the rules are vague in this regard.

... the rules will continue to be vague in that regard. All I can say is, this was begun for fun and it needs to stay that way. I don't think members like you, Doogle and a few others have anything to worry about from the rest of us in this contest.

So, bottom line is, if you guys want a "no photoshopping" rule, that's fine. But I have no way to determine compliance and it would be on the honor system. I could start a poll for a vote.

ClemBert · July 31, 2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

So, bottom line is, if you guys want a "no photoshopping" rule, that's fine. But I have no way to determine compliance and it would be on the honor system. I could start a poll for a vote.

Bud, you are being too kind. My photos are nothing more that amateur shots from an old 2 mega pixel Cannon Elph camera. I just try to take pics with a interesting outlay to them. Nothing more nothing less.

Again, I don't have a problem with the PhotoShopping, et al. I'm just curious to know if it is acceptable to take two images and merge them together. As I said before, if the data in your image you plan to present was not in the original photo file when you "snapped" it then aren't you in fact submitting TWO PHOTOs. The rules are ONE PHOTO. Merging portions of two photos or images into one is not "one snap" of the camera button. Manipulating data already in an image file is not what I'm talking about. It seems to me that simple cleanup of an image file should be acceptable as well as adding simple text to identify the author or the weapon. Let's just have clarification then work as "on your honor" with regard to the rules.

Submitted as JMHO.

**Bud Helms** · July 31, 2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

As I said before, if the data in your image you plan to present was not in the original photo file when you "snapped" it then aren't you in fact submitting TWO PHOTOs. The rules are ONE PHOTO. Merging portions of two photos or images into one is not "one snap" of the camera button.

Well, I see that you do have a point on this. And I had not seen it that way. The rules DO say one photo. I will see if the rules need emphasis or if it is clear as stated. I think this is reasonable.

**Bud Helms** · July 31, 2009, 03:01 PM

I have changed Rule #1 to reflect this change. There is also a couple of edits to Rule #9 that probably won't affect anything, but everyone needs to put their eyes on them so you can say you know about them.

Doogle · July 31, 2009, 11:03 PM

...as I have to date. If I ever feel the rules have gotten too fiddly for my liking I will retire without a fuss. This contest is, after all, intended to be enjoyable.

For the record, as people may not have a good understanding of how images can be created, I have ensured I stuck to the rules, "One picture post (one entry) per member. One angle. One photo shot." No replaced backgrounds, no elements taken from other images.

However, I must say that the idea of a "snapshot" is quite alien to a photographer :-)

ClemBert · August 1, 2009, 08:27 AM

Doogle, you always have some of the coolest pictures around! I always look forward to seeing yours.

**Bud Helms** · August 1, 2009, 08:58 AM

See, I expect that from you two, IdahoG36, ScottsGT, Renny, PDBreske, Angus Lincoln and a couple of others here.

There have been a couple of monthly contests that have had two or more entries that could win in any monthly contest.

Rule #12 says, "The winning photo in the monthly contest may not enter that photo again for one year," but it says nothing about the entry that got 12 votes behind a winner that got 13 votes! That #2 pic can come right back next month!

Shadi Khalil · August 1, 2009, 05:54 PM

This is off topic but I think that links to photos should not be allowed. I think all photos should be posted in the thread or deleted.

**Bud Helms** · August 2, 2009, 04:17 AM

That is an interesting idea. I think so far, the only pics that weren't posted here were the ones that were too large. Still, I like your idea.

PDBreske · August 2, 2009, 06:24 AM

I don't like the idea of forcing entrants to post the images as attachments. The 244KB file size limit is fine for many photos, but some JPEG images may exceed that limit if they have lots of fine grain details (and are thus harder to compress to a small file size). The only way to get around this would be to save the file as a lower quality JPEG, and I cannot stand the way those compression artifacts affect my photos.

If I link to the images on my remote server, I'm not subject to this file size limit, and I'm saving the TFL servers from additional storage requirements.

I would, however, like to see a "maximum pixel dimension" rule. Say, 700 pixels on the longest side? That would permit all users to see good detail without forcing too much side-scrolling on older, smaller computer screens. The only reason to post an image 1200 pixels wide is because you don't know how to reduce it, and there are plenty of people here who can help with that.

Shadi Khalil · August 2, 2009, 10:07 AM

I didn't think of size limitations when posting on the site. I just like a nice uniform look.

**Bud Helms** · August 2, 2009, 12:15 PM

Hold on a minute ... there are 1) attachments, then there are 2) inline images, then there are 3) links to images. What are we talking about here?

An inline image is visible within the post. It is an image uploaded and hosted on TFL.

An attachment is a link in the post and may accompany an inline image or may not. The attachment may be uploaded from a url or from your computer, but it is uploaded onto TFL.

A link is a url link to an image hosted off site.

Shadi Khalil · August 2, 2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

An inline image is visible within the post. It is an image uploaded and hosted on TFL.

That's what I was talking about. If it were up to me, I would make it so all entries would have to be visible within the post. PD raised concerns that I'm sure others share as well...

PDBreske · August 2, 2009, 06:47 PM

After my post I thought about this for a while, and I have a suggestion: Instead of making like Congress and adding to the already complex tax code, how about we make the rules very short and basic?

[Suggested] Contest Rules:

1. One photo per TFL member per monthly contest.

2. Photos must be of a gun or guns personally owned by you.

3. Photos must be posted inline so they display in the post. Inline images hosted on your server are fine as long as they satisfy all other requirements of these rules.

4. The photos must be posted with no accompanying text - this is a photo contest, not a history class - and posted images must be free of descriptive text, including watermarks, logos, ads, etc.

5. Photo dimensions must be within [to be determined] pixels on the longest edge. Decorative borders are allowed, but the border must fall within the aforementioned size limitation.

6. One photo will be chosen as winner by popular vote. Voting will commence within one week after the end of the month and will last for one week. A voting tie will be decided by run-off popular vote.

7. Winning entries my not be re-entered for one calendar year. All other entries may re-enter at any time.

8. After the December winner has been chosen, all monthly winners for the previous year will be entered in an annual photo contest to decide the best photo of the year. Voting in that contest will be similar to the monthly voting scheme.

9. This is only an exhibition. Please: No wagering.

These rules are similar to rules I have seen on photography web sites that I frequent and I think they are pretty fair. Any other suggestions are welcome.

**Bud Helms** · August 2, 2009, 11:43 PM

'Looks pretty good to me.

Shadi Khalil · August 2, 2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

'Looks pretty good to me.

I second that.

Doogle · August 3, 2009, 05:08 AM

...that not including an inline image and/or making the image too large may both mitigate against their chances of success in such a contest.

If you don't have an image display some people may not bother clicking a link to view it.

Displaying an image that is too large, and requires people to scroll around to see it all, reduces the visual impact of the image as a whole.

Please also consider that resizing TOO small does digital images no favours, and most people these days have reasonably sized monitors working at resolutions that allow images a fair bit larger than 700 pixels wide that will display comfortably on screen. Imposing too small a size limit would impose quality restrictions that are neither necessary nor desirable.

I have no issue with text accompanying the images posted. Often I'm interested in the make/model of weapon pictured and many people give that info. I also enjoy thinking up cheesy titles for my pics :-) The current rule limiting it to one sentence seems suitable.

I thought the text within images issue had been resolved, and it was to be allowed.

I would question whether the inline image and image size rule changes are really necessary.

PDBreske · August 3, 2009, 05:32 AM

In my opinion, the rule disallowing text of any kind is the one rule that we do need in a photography contest.

I realize that we aren't all professional photographers, but if I were to post an image of a plain-Jane semi-automatic pistol and say it was used in the war by John F Kennedy, that would possibly sway some people to cast a vote just because they think that's a pretty cool fact. Of course, it would be a complete fabrication, but it would also be an unfair advantage.

If you want to know more about the posted gun, ask in a PM. There are plenty of other threads dedicated to gun knowledge — the photo contest should be solely based on the ability to display an artistic image of a firearm.

grymster2007 · August 3, 2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

In my opinion, the rule disallowing text of any kind is the one rule that we do need in a photography contest.

I like having the make/model of the gun displayed, because I don't always know what I'm looking at. While I personally like knowing what photog equipment was used, I don't really need that info, so I'd be happy with make/model only.

PDBreske · August 3, 2009, 09:54 AM

I feel so strongly about the text issue that I would favor some method of anonymously posting images if that were possible. The fairest way to choose a winning image would be to pick from a group of photos and only photos. No names, descriptions, or text of any kind. Pure photography.

I know this isn't going to happen (due to limitations of the vBulletin software, it's technically impossible without requiring many man hours of behind-the-scenes work by moderators), but it would be great if we could work toward something close.

This is my final comment on the topic. The decision is up to the moderators.

**Bud Helms** · August 3, 2009, 11:12 AM

Well, we allow a line (short sentence) of accompanying text. Is the issue here the text on the photo? That is the only text I've ever had an issue with.

PDBreske · August 3, 2009, 11:16 AM

I understand the current rules allows a short sentence accompanying the photo, but I'm proposing no text at all anywhere in the post. I know people can't seem to refrain from bragging about their guns, and that's fine, but if we're going to continue with a photo contest, it should be about photos and nothing else, in my opinion.

EDIT: I know I said that was my last comment, but I'm not being understood. There are currently 353,011 threads on TFL with over 3.5 million posts. Surely we can have ONE thread with only photos?

July 30, 2009, 03:58 PM	#26
JohnPaul Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2008 Location: UTAH Posts: 218	well I got in this discussion a little late.. ...but I will thow in my 2% of a buck as well. Most of my photos are "photoshop'd" as well, mainly because my camera sucks. I am still somewhat confused on all the rules because its just a fun contest, I would enter regardless of "winning"-whatever that means. I just want to see what pictures people take and what they do with the picture. I have been vilified as much as congradulated on my pictures, not sure why, I work hard on them to make them look nice and people claim they are "fake" what does that mean. I took the photo myself and processed it myself __________________ Infidel ? - Who, me??

July 30, 2009, 04:57 PM	#27
JohnPaul Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2008 Location: UTAH Posts: 218	OF course on the other hand... ... there is nothing stopping us members that just want to share our photos and others just for fun from having our own monthly "show us your photo's - anything goes july, aug...." post __________________ Infidel ? - Who, me??

July 31, 2009, 11:03 PM	#33
Doogle Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2004 Posts: 399	Whatever the rules I will follow them...> ...as I have to date. If I ever feel the rules have gotten too fiddly for my liking I will retire without a fuss. This contest is, after all, intended to be enjoyable. For the record, as people may not have a good understanding of how images can be created, I have ensured I stuck to the rules, "One picture post (one entry) per member. One angle. One photo shot." No replaced backgrounds, no elements taken from other images. However, I must say that the idea of a "snapshot" is quite alien to a photographer :-)

August 3, 2009, 05:08 AM	#45
Doogle Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2004 Posts: 399	People may wish to consider...> ...that not including an inline image and/or making the image too large may both mitigate against their chances of success in such a contest. If you don't have an image display some people may not bother clicking a link to view it. Displaying an image that is too large, and requires people to scroll around to see it all, reduces the visual impact of the image as a whole. Please also consider that resizing TOO small does digital images no favours, and most people these days have reasonably sized monitors working at resolutions that allow images a fair bit larger than 700 pixels wide that will display comfortably on screen. Imposing too small a size limit would impose quality restrictions that are neither necessary nor desirable. I have no issue with text accompanying the images posted. Often I'm interested in the make/model of weapon pictured and many people give that info. I also enjoy thinking up cheesy titles for my pics :-) The current rule limiting it to one sentence seems suitable. I thought the text within images issue had been resolved, and it was to be allowed. I would question whether the inline image and image size rule changes are really necessary. Last edited by Doogle; August 3, 2009 at 05:18 AM. Reason: ..

July 30, 2009, 05:13 PM	#28
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	My question regarding use of PhotoShop or some other image enhancing software had nothing to do with use of such software to manipulate the light settings etc. It had to do with use of such software to merge two or more separate images together. On the one hand you have some people who are using such software to merge or add text. This is not what I'm talking about. My example had to do with taking a photo of a firearm then making that photo's background transparent then overlaying it on top of another image. Personally, I don't care. I just want to know what the rules are. IMHO, a photo contest is about displaying your one photo image even if processed not merging two photos or images together then calling that your photo. Based on my understanding of the rules or at least the spirit of the rules image enhancement is fine as long as the data being manipulated is already in the photo's image file. In other words, you aren't adding something to the picture that wasn't already in the image file when you "snapped" the picture. I think some of the "photos" I've seen from a few people where they merge two or more images together looks pretty cool! However, in the spirit of a photo contest I don't think they have any place competing with other people who took "one snap" then posted the photo. We just need to know what you can and what you can't do...basically, the rules are vague in this regard. I am for an all out "do whatever" contest or even perhaps a separate contest where you can present these kind of photos.

July 31, 2009, 03:01 PM	#32
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	I have changed Rule #1 to reflect this change. There is also a couple of edits to Rule #9 that probably won't affect anything, but everyone needs to put their eyes on them so you can say you know about them.

August 1, 2009, 08:27 AM	#34
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Doogle, you always have some of the coolest pictures around! I always look forward to seeing yours.

August 1, 2009, 08:58 AM	#35
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	See, I expect that from you two, IdahoG36, ScottsGT, Renny, PDBreske, Angus Lincoln and a couple of others here. There have been a couple of monthly contests that have had two or more entries that could win in any monthly contest. Rule #12 says, "The winning photo in the monthly contest may not enter that photo again for one year," but it says nothing about the entry that got 12 votes behind a winner that got 13 votes! That #2 pic can come right back next month!

August 1, 2009, 05:54 PM	#36
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	This is off topic but I think that links to photos should not be allowed. I think all photos should be posted in the thread or deleted.

August 2, 2009, 04:17 AM	#37
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	That is an interesting idea. I think so far, the only pics that weren't posted here were the ones that were too large. Still, I like your idea.

August 2, 2009, 06:24 AM	#38
PDBreske Junior member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Posts: 171	I don't like the idea of forcing entrants to post the images as attachments. The 244KB file size limit is fine for many photos, but some JPEG images may exceed that limit if they have lots of fine grain details (and are thus harder to compress to a small file size). The only way to get around this would be to save the file as a lower quality JPEG, and I cannot stand the way those compression artifacts affect my photos. If I link to the images on my remote server, I'm not subject to this file size limit, and I'm saving the TFL servers from additional storage requirements. I would, however, like to see a "maximum pixel dimension" rule. Say, 700 pixels on the longest side? That would permit all users to see good detail without forcing too much side-scrolling on older, smaller computer screens. The only reason to post an image 1200 pixels wide is because you don't know how to reduce it, and there are plenty of people here who can help with that.

August 2, 2009, 10:07 AM	#39
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	I didn't think of size limitations when posting on the site. I just like a nice uniform look.

August 2, 2009, 12:15 PM	#40
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Hold on a minute ... there are 1) attachments, then there are 2) inline images, then there are 3) links to images. What are we talking about here? An inline image is visible within the post. It is an image uploaded and hosted on TFL. An attachment is a link in the post and may accompany an inline image or may not. The attachment may be uploaded from a url or from your computer, but it is uploaded onto TFL. A link is a url link to an image hosted off site.

August 2, 2009, 06:47 PM	#42
PDBreske Junior member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Posts: 171	After my post I thought about this for a while, and I have a suggestion: Instead of making like Congress and adding to the already complex tax code, how about we make the rules very short and basic? [Suggested] Contest Rules: 1. One photo per TFL member per monthly contest. 2. Photos must be of a gun or guns personally owned by you. 3. Photos must be posted inline so they display in the post. Inline images hosted on your server are fine as long as they satisfy all other requirements of these rules. 4. The photos must be posted with no accompanying text - this is a photo contest, not a history class - and posted images must be free of descriptive text, including watermarks, logos, ads, etc. 5. Photo dimensions must be within [to be determined] pixels on the longest edge. Decorative borders are allowed, but the border must fall within the aforementioned size limitation. 6. One photo will be chosen as winner by popular vote. Voting will commence within one week after the end of the month and will last for one week. A voting tie will be decided by run-off popular vote. 7. Winning entries my not be re-entered for one calendar year. All other entries may re-enter at any time. 8. After the December winner has been chosen, all monthly winners for the previous year will be entered in an annual photo contest to decide the best photo of the year. Voting in that contest will be similar to the monthly voting scheme. 9. This is only an exhibition. Please: No wagering. These rules are similar to rules I have seen on photography web sites that I frequent and I think they are pretty fair. Any other suggestions are welcome.

August 2, 2009, 11:43 PM	#43
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	'Looks pretty good to me.

August 3, 2009, 05:32 AM	#46
PDBreske Junior member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Posts: 171	In my opinion, the rule disallowing text of any kind is the one rule that we do need in a photography contest. I realize that we aren't all professional photographers, but if I were to post an image of a plain-Jane semi-automatic pistol and say it was used in the war by John F Kennedy, that would possibly sway some people to cast a vote just because they think that's a pretty cool fact. Of course, it would be a complete fabrication, but it would also be an unfair advantage. If you want to know more about the posted gun, ask in a PM. There are plenty of other threads dedicated to gun knowledge — the photo contest should be solely based on the ability to display an artistic image of a firearm.

August 3, 2009, 09:54 AM	#48
PDBreske Junior member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Posts: 171	I feel so strongly about the text issue that I would favor some method of anonymously posting images if that were possible. The fairest way to choose a winning image would be to pick from a group of photos and only photos. No names, descriptions, or text of any kind. Pure photography. I know this isn't going to happen (due to limitations of the vBulletin software, it's technically impossible without requiring many man hours of behind-the-scenes work by moderators), but it would be great if we could work toward something close. This is my final comment on the topic. The decision is up to the moderators.

August 3, 2009, 11:12 AM	#49
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Well, we allow a line (short sentence) of accompanying text. Is the issue here the text on the photo? That is the only text I've ever had an issue with.

August 3, 2009, 11:16 AM	#50
PDBreske Junior member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Posts: 171	I understand the current rules allows a short sentence accompanying the photo, but I'm proposing no text at all anywhere in the post. I know people can't seem to refrain from bragging about their guns, and that's fine, but if we're going to continue with a photo contest, it should be about photos and nothing else, in my opinion. EDIT: I know I said that was my last comment, but I'm not being understood. There are currently 353,011 threads on TFL with over 3.5 million posts. Surely we can have ONE thread with only photos?