Garand Sights

gizmo688 · February 18, 2012, 01:44 PM

After about 500 rounds and thinking I was going insane, I finally figured out that recoil from my rifle is causing the sight adjustment to creep back to some sort of equilibrium position. It only seems to happen to the elevation, as the windage is fine. My targets have a nice vertical line on them.

Every shot sends me lower by 1 or 2 moa.
My question is, are the sights worn out to the point that I need replacements, or is there something I can do to tighten them?

Chris_B · February 18, 2012, 02:06 PM

The serrations on the receiver "ears" that the sight passes through are probably worn. There is a disc that you can add that supposedly assists with this. Don't remember where I saw it though

Do you know how to remove the sight? The issue could be the elevation drum but unfortunately I think the issue will be the receiver- not that it can't be fixed, it's just so much easier to slap in a new elevation drum

edit- Found it. If you inspect the receiver ears and they are the problem, this may well be your solution:

http://www.fulton-armory.com/rearsig...ationdisk.aspx

gizmo688 · February 18, 2012, 02:26 PM

Ahh, so stick that part on between the receiver and the elevation post/gear/knob? It says to epoxy it on. The thought of epoxying something on any rifle over 50 years old makes my stomach turn.

Chris_B · February 18, 2012, 02:33 PM

Is that your M1? I don't recall the serrations having that 'valley' in them on my '44

How's the 'teeth' on the elevation drum?

gizmo688 · February 18, 2012, 02:39 PM

Yeah all these pics are mine. Stripping it right now.

Edit: The bright spot above the 2 is the only tooth on the drum.

Chris_B · February 18, 2012, 03:07 PM

I have a spare M1 rear sight, and that elevation drum only has one tooth, too, but it looks WAY more pronounced than yours

gizmo688 · February 18, 2012, 03:16 PM

Yeah i thought it looked a tad worn. Whats a fair price on one of those? I may hit up gunbroker since people part out old rifles on there all the time. If it is overly expensive, i may just remember to set it back to the 3 line every time lol

Chris_B · February 18, 2012, 03:28 PM

I had Northridge bookmarked. The answer is "it depends", but they have a whole sight for 75. They also list just a pinion with knobs for 75.

http://northridgeinc.com/store/index.cfm/c132

A little more pricey

http://www.ammogarand.com/m1garandparts.html

Bill Ricca may just not have it listed

http://www.billricca.com/m1_m14.htm

I got an entire type III lockbar sight for my M1 a couple years ago for 120 but that was a face to face deal and prices have gone up...75 sounds OK for late model rear sight, but of course you can't inspect it

With prices like they are, I wonder if my 'franken-sight' made with a BM 59 stamped elevation drum is worth millions, lol

Hopefully you'll end up lucky, and it's just the drum tooth being worn. I could have sworn there were two teeth

gizmo688 · February 18, 2012, 03:55 PM

Hmm. Well for $75 I may just stay with what I have right now and keep an eye out for any deal that comes along. Not like the thing has to be fixed immediately.

On a side note, my stock doesnt have any cartouches or anything. Would a light sand job and new varnish be a bad idea?

Thanks for the help Chris.

Chris_B · February 18, 2012, 04:14 PM

No sweat

Light sand...I've done heavy sand, lol. My USGI stock only had a "P" and an RIA cartouche. But it did have some smash marks that I thought were splinter factories and I started with 80 grit, finished up with 400 and then scotchbrite. But I taped over the cartouches I had first, and stayed away from crisp edges. I also steamed out some dents. I had nothing to lose on my stock- it was one ugly piece of wood when I started so i figured, what the hey

I'd suggest pure tung oil or boiled linseed oil instead of varnish though. That's all that is on mine. I wish I'd taken a 'before' photo. It looked like Godzilla had it stuck in his colon since 1950.

This...is maybe 30 coats of boiled linseed oil? I've lost count. Also a few coats of "lin-speed' oil.

It gets compliments at the range, which is cool, but I shot myself in the proverbial foot- it's so pretty I'm afraid to lay it on the shooting bench for fear of marring the pretty finish. I outsmarted myself once again!

It was this color after sanding and cleaning; still had the HRA trigger group and late sight:

I did a few other USGI walnut stocks and some turned a beautiful red-gold-brown when oiled the first time, some stayed pretty light until four or five coats. I've tried staining too but I don't think it did a damn thing but make a mess, lol

This is my dad's M1 carbine stock. When I cleaned it with odorless mineral spirits, it was white as a bone. One single coat of boiled linseed oil did this:

I guess it depends on the piece of wood what you'll get

HankC1 · February 18, 2012, 06:14 PM

Chris,

I admire your stock. I refinished a M14 walnut stock with tung oil but the color is still light and bright to my like even after 6 coats of tung oil. May be I should try some boiled Linseed on it to see it will darken it more.

Chris_B · February 18, 2012, 07:09 PM

Thanks Hank

After doing a couple M1 stocks and a few carbines, it seems that some of the walnut just doesn't like to darken. Probably has something to do with how the wood was cut or where in the tree the wood came from. I got very lucky I think. But one thing I've noticed with boiled linseed oil-

I bought a gallon can in 2008, and it's the only one I've used. Still about half full. At first I was really careful and wiped the top off carefully each time I used it, but as time went on, I got lazy and left it wet. The top of the can has a red-gold hue now. I have read that the so called 'arsenal red' color of old USGI stocks is from corrosion in the vats that held the oils and impurities in the oils that the stocks were treated with. I think there's something to that, this can that I've ignored is sort of the same color as my stock now

gizmo688 · February 18, 2012, 08:19 PM

I took the plunge. Spent the last few hours sanding with 80, 220, and 320 grit sandpaper. The stock drank up the linseed oil, so im going to hit it with another coat tomorrow.

Before:

After:

The sanding got 98% of the dents and divits out. Looks like im in search of a new deer stalking rifle now lol. Hopefully that extra coat of oil tomorrow will make it a bit darker. On a side note, my gas system has always been a pain to get off. I accidentally launched it across the room and into a cup of sundrop soda haha. Almost more embarrassing than launching the 1911 recoil spring...

Chris_B · February 19, 2012, 02:25 PM

That's actually a pretty nice looking stock, gizmo. I think it's birch or beech, not walnut, though; I'm not sure how much darker it will get.

**Unclenick** · February 19, 2012, 06:53 PM

Gizmo688,

Back to the original topic, I think that knob tooth is one of the more severely worn I've seen. They are specified to be 0.018"-0.023" tall when new, with the sides sloping up at 35° and with the tip radius no greater than 0.003". They are case hardened "file hard" according to spec. I've used diamond hones to slightly sharpen dull ones very carefully in the past, but the problem is that the case hardening is only 0.004"-0.008" thick, and once you wear past the case hardened portion, then the receiver, which is also case hardened, files the rest of tooth off very quickly. Getting one of the discs with new serrations won't help because the tooth is slipping over tip of the serrations now. You have only one tooth and many serrations in the receiver, each of which not only has a deeper case, but which share the wear among one another where the single tooth on the knob sees it all.

Oh, one more think occurs to me to mention. The M14's sights are the same. You can get the knob for an M14 or an M1A and it will work. Fulton Armory has them in both their M14 and Garand parts lists on sale for $44.96 at the moment.

Orlando · February 29, 2012, 07:41 PM

Are the screws tight on sight knobs?

Used Garand pinion knobs are around $35

February 18, 2012, 01:44 PM	#1
gizmo688 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2011 Posts: 116	Garand Sights After about 500 rounds and thinking I was going insane, I finally figured out that recoil from my rifle is causing the sight adjustment to creep back to some sort of equilibrium position. It only seems to happen to the elevation, as the windage is fine. My targets have a nice vertical line on them. Every shot sends me lower by 1 or 2 moa. My question is, are the sights worn out to the point that I need replacements, or is there something I can do to tighten them?

February 18, 2012, 02:06 PM	#2
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	The serrations on the receiver "ears" that the sight passes through are probably worn. There is a disc that you can add that supposedly assists with this. Don't remember where I saw it though Do you know how to remove the sight? The issue could be the elevation drum but unfortunately I think the issue will be the receiver- not that it can't be fixed, it's just so much easier to slap in a new elevation drum edit- Found it. If you inspect the receiver ears and they are the problem, this may well be your solution: http://www.fulton-armory.com/rearsig...ationdisk.aspx Last edited by Chris_B; February 18, 2012 at 02:12 PM.

February 18, 2012, 04:14 PM	#10
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	No sweat Light sand...I've done heavy sand, lol. My USGI stock only had a "P" and an RIA cartouche. But it did have some smash marks that I thought were splinter factories and I started with 80 grit, finished up with 400 and then scotchbrite. But I taped over the cartouches I had first, and stayed away from crisp edges. I also steamed out some dents. I had nothing to lose on my stock- it was one ugly piece of wood when I started so i figured, what the hey I'd suggest pure tung oil or boiled linseed oil instead of varnish though. That's all that is on mine. I wish I'd taken a 'before' photo. It looked like Godzilla had it stuck in his colon since 1950. This...is maybe 30 coats of boiled linseed oil? I've lost count. Also a few coats of "lin-speed' oil. It gets compliments at the range, which is cool, but I shot myself in the proverbial foot- it's so pretty I'm afraid to lay it on the shooting bench for fear of marring the pretty finish. I outsmarted myself once again! It was this color after sanding and cleaning; still had the HRA trigger group and late sight: I did a few other USGI walnut stocks and some turned a beautiful red-gold-brown when oiled the first time, some stayed pretty light until four or five coats. I've tried staining too but I don't think it did a damn thing but make a mess, lol This is my dad's M1 carbine stock. When I cleaned it with odorless mineral spirits, it was white as a bone. One single coat of boiled linseed oil did this: I guess it depends on the piece of wood what you'll get Last edited by Chris_B; February 18, 2012 at 04:32 PM.

February 19, 2012, 06:53 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Gizmo688, Back to the original topic, I think that knob tooth is one of the more severely worn I've seen. They are specified to be 0.018"-0.023" tall when new, with the sides sloping up at 35° and with the tip radius no greater than 0.003". They are case hardened "file hard" according to spec. I've used diamond hones to slightly sharpen dull ones very carefully in the past, but the problem is that the case hardening is only 0.004"-0.008" thick, and once you wear past the case hardened portion, then the receiver, which is also case hardened, files the rest of tooth off very quickly. Getting one of the discs with new serrations won't help because the tooth is slipping over tip of the serrations now. You have only one tooth and many serrations in the receiver, each of which not only has a deeper case, but which share the wear among one another where the single tooth on the knob sees it all. Oh, one more think occurs to me to mention. The M14's sights are the same. You can get the knob for an M14 or an M1A and it will work. Fulton Armory has them in both their M14 and Garand parts lists on sale for $44.96 at the moment. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 29, 2012, 07:41 PM	#16
Orlando Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2009 Posts: 352	Are the screws tight on sight knobs? Used Garand pinion knobs are around $35 Last edited by Orlando; February 29, 2012 at 07:48 PM.

February 18, 2012, 02:26 PM	#3
gizmo688 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2011 Posts: 116	Ahh, so stick that part on between the receiver and the elevation post/gear/knob? It says to epoxy it on. The thought of epoxying something on any rifle over 50 years old makes my stomach turn.

February 18, 2012, 02:33 PM	#4
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	Is that your M1? I don't recall the serrations having that 'valley' in them on my '44 How's the 'teeth' on the elevation drum?

February 18, 2012, 02:39 PM	#5
gizmo688 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2011 Posts: 116	Yeah all these pics are mine. Stripping it right now. Edit: The bright spot above the 2 is the only tooth on the drum.

February 18, 2012, 03:07 PM	#6
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	I have a spare M1 rear sight, and that elevation drum only has one tooth, too, but it looks WAY more pronounced than yours

February 18, 2012, 03:16 PM	#7
gizmo688 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2011 Posts: 116	Yeah i thought it looked a tad worn. Whats a fair price on one of those? I may hit up gunbroker since people part out old rifles on there all the time. If it is overly expensive, i may just remember to set it back to the 3 line every time lol

February 18, 2012, 03:28 PM	#8
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	I had Northridge bookmarked. The answer is "it depends", but they have a whole sight for 75. They also list just a pinion with knobs for 75. http://northridgeinc.com/store/index.cfm/c132 A little more pricey http://www.ammogarand.com/m1garandparts.html Bill Ricca may just not have it listed http://www.billricca.com/m1_m14.htm I got an entire type III lockbar sight for my M1 a couple years ago for 120 but that was a face to face deal and prices have gone up...75 sounds OK for late model rear sight, but of course you can't inspect it With prices like they are, I wonder if my 'franken-sight' made with a BM 59 stamped elevation drum is worth millions, lol Hopefully you'll end up lucky, and it's just the drum tooth being worn. I could have sworn there were two teeth

February 18, 2012, 03:55 PM	#9
gizmo688 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2011 Posts: 116	Hmm. Well for $75 I may just stay with what I have right now and keep an eye out for any deal that comes along. Not like the thing has to be fixed immediately. On a side note, my stock doesnt have any cartouches or anything. Would a light sand job and new varnish be a bad idea? Thanks for the help Chris.

February 18, 2012, 06:14 PM	#11
HankC1 Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 531	Chris, I admire your stock. I refinished a M14 walnut stock with tung oil but the color is still light and bright to my like even after 6 coats of tung oil. May be I should try some boiled Linseed on it to see it will darken it more.

February 18, 2012, 07:09 PM	#12
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	Thanks Hank After doing a couple M1 stocks and a few carbines, it seems that some of the walnut just doesn't like to darken. Probably has something to do with how the wood was cut or where in the tree the wood came from. I got very lucky I think. But one thing I've noticed with boiled linseed oil- I bought a gallon can in 2008, and it's the only one I've used. Still about half full. At first I was really careful and wiped the top off carefully each time I used it, but as time went on, I got lazy and left it wet. The top of the can has a red-gold hue now. I have read that the so called 'arsenal red' color of old USGI stocks is from corrosion in the vats that held the oils and impurities in the oils that the stocks were treated with. I think there's something to that, this can that I've ignored is sort of the same color as my stock now

February 18, 2012, 08:19 PM	#13
gizmo688 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2011 Posts: 116	I took the plunge. Spent the last few hours sanding with 80, 220, and 320 grit sandpaper. The stock drank up the linseed oil, so im going to hit it with another coat tomorrow. Before: After: The sanding got 98% of the dents and divits out. Looks like im in search of a new deer stalking rifle now lol. Hopefully that extra coat of oil tomorrow will make it a bit darker. On a side note, my gas system has always been a pain to get off. I accidentally launched it across the room and into a cup of sundrop soda haha. Almost more embarrassing than launching the 1911 recoil spring...

February 19, 2012, 02:25 PM	#14
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	That's actually a pretty nice looking stock, gizmo. I think it's birch or beech, not walnut, though; I'm not sure how much darker it will get.