Mixed-Load Magazines

[booker_t]

Over the years I've heard about people loading magazines with a mixture of rounds.

Sometimes people will put 2 non-lethal rounds in last (first out), to give them that "option," although it really isn't an option once it's loaded.

Sometimes people will load various alternating patterns of Hollow Point and FMJ-FP/ball. I believe George Sodini, the LA Fitness shooter in Pennsylvania in April 2009, used an alternating pattern in his handguns.

Does anybody here do this? Is it ever recommended by any Department policies or protocols, military TMs, anything?

[johns7022]

Yes it's viable...I used to run 230 gn ball with 230 gn HPs in a 45 acp...

I know a firearms trainer that felt running slugs/00 buck shot was a good mix in a shotgun...

In the preceding two cases the concept was to keep shooting rounds with the hope that one or the other round would work to neutralize the threat...

Certainly I have considered running non lethal in the first few rounds as well in a carry gun...

I think what is important is that one takes an honest look at the threat, and consider an appropriate measure to neutralize that threat. While people will argue against non lethal...putting 5 rounds of snake shot into a mugger, then walking home, no ensuing legal issues...might not be a bad way to go....

[kraigwy]

Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.

I have mixed loads, I have WCs for practice, I had 150 Gn RNL for milder loads yet meet the power factor for ICOR and such, and I have SWCs for full loads in my 38/357s.

I dont have to worry about whats in the gun, I just look at the bullets.

In my pocket revolver I carry 150 Gr SWCs loaded to +P specs, it would work in SD, it works on rattlers I run into in my yard or while horseback, it works in adding critters to the pot while camping, and putting down injured critters, including deer and such do to a muffed shot while hunting.

Last thing I want to worry about in a SD situation is what round is first up. I certainly dont want to worry about rotating a cylender to get the proper round lined up.

[Indy_Guy_77]

It's my opinion that, with modern ammunition, it's silly to mix loads in the same handgun magazine.

Non-lethal rounds as #1 and #2 in a handgun? Man, if a threat is bad enough for me to draw my weapon and fire it, it's danged sure bad enough that I want "something" that will greatly increase my chances of stopping said threat.

"I alternate JHP and FMJ for better barrier penetration". I've heard that line, too. From a good friend of mine. Again, with modern ammunition, it's silly to mix loads in the same handgun magazine.

Back to the barrier penetration thing... If you're not a fracking cop, you've really got no business shooting INTO a barrier in order to shoot AT someone else. Get real.

Carry a good performing JHP that functions flawlessly in your handgun and "forget" about the rest.

-J-

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think what is important is that one takes an honest look at the threat, and consider an appropriate measure to neutralize that threat. While people will argue against non lethal...putting 5 rounds of snake shot into a mugger, then walking home, no ensuing legal issues...might not be a bad way to go....

Believe me, if you pump five rounds of snake shot into a mugger or anyone else and walk home, there are going to be legal issues ensuing. From a legal standpoint, shooting someone with snakeshot is still lethal force. This means that you have to meet all the same criteria (i.e. you can only shoot to prevent an immediate threat of death or serious injury).

Now, if you are being faced with an immediate threat of death or serious injury and want to respond with snakeshot, that is your choice; but at that point you are basically relying on the attacker changing his mind.

Some other important things to remember with regards to "non-lethal"

1. "Non-lethal" is actually less lethal; but shot, bean bags, rubber bullets etc. can and have killed people in the past.

2. When police use less lethal weapons, they typically do so with the support of other police officers using firearms. That is an important difference in how they are used by police and how they may be used by you.

[booker_t]

Good points, Mr. Roberts.

Sometimes I'll carry a different projectile/load in my 2nd or 3rd magazine, but within a magazine I keep it consistent.

[twobit]

In our police duty shotguns the first two shots are slugs and the next three are 00 buck. We shoot that series of two slugs, then three buck when we perform our annual required qualifications. Dozens of Texas departments use that 2 slug and three buck for their shotgun qualifying. All the academy's train that way that I know of.

Those five rounds are in the magazine. The gun is stored in the vehicle electric gun lock with chamber empty, action closed, trigger pulled, safety on. To bring the gun to battery one only has to pump the action and take the safety off (no fumbling with the slide release). As long as the gun is in it's gun rack/lock a round cannot be chambered because the lock blocks the slide from opening. A Remington 760 /7600 rifle can be stored the same way in the same locking vehicle rack.

24 years LEO.

I dont mix ammo in anything but the shotgun. Only exception; I used to carry snake shot (for snakes) in a couple of positions in a .38 but that was used as a snake gun on the ranch. I dont have that revolver anymore.

[kraigwy]

How many of you actually used "snake shot".

I tried it on snakes, its not that effective, I did PO a rattler one time, that was it, just POed him, desided to go back to normal SWCs and learned to shoot.

Try it, put your target on a 1/4 sheet of plywood and step back 7 yards, see how much penitration you get.

We're not talking a load of #2 shot out of a 410 Judge, we are talking 38s or simular rounds.

My experience is they are a gimic. I believe one would be better served in picking a good round and learning to shoot.

Practice does wonders.

[BikerRN]

Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.

I concur.

Snakeshot is one thing, but using non-lethal rounds in a defensive encounter is something else entirely. It's still lethal force, and you need to be justified in using lethal force. If lethal force is justified, why are you using a non-lethal, or less than deadly, round? It seems silly to me.

You may only have one chance to end a lethal encounter. Do you really want to take the chance that your so-called non-lethal round will work? If the idea of killing another human being bothers you that much, that you load non-lethal rounds, do the world a favor and get a can of pepper spray and lock up your guns.

This is not to say that killing another human being shouldn't bother you, it should. The thing is, the alternative should be worse.

Biker

[twobit]

Agree.....I got rid of all the .38 snake shot after trying it a few times. A 22 rifle with the end of barrel a few inches from the snake works better (or just a 20 gauge with bird shot). That was just the only example I could remember mixing ammo in anything but the duty shotgun.

[Glenn Dee]

I use a revolver for H/D. I mix it up too. 1st round is snake shot, next two are frangibles, then three +pJHP's. Its a colt so I position the snake shot to be first up, then the two frangibles, then the JHP's.

IMO Less than lethal in a civilian handgun is asking for trouble.

[WC145]

The only time I mix up ammo is when I'm breaking in a new auto, just to make sure I won't run into any feeding issues. Otherwise it's either all practice ammo if I'm at the range or all carry ammo the rest of the time.

I would NEVER consider "less lethal" anything in my carry gun. In fact, I'm interested in MAXIMUM lethality from my weapon/ammunition combo.

[orionengnr]

Alternating rounds is a symptom of indecision. Most frequently this occurs in people who carry a .32 or .380.

I hate to put it this way, but don't know another way to say it:

if you do not have faith in your round of choice, re-evaluate your carry gun/caliber.

[JohnKSa]

I have heard from more than one respected source that mixing loads in a single magazine can, in some instances, cause malfunctions.

I will readily admit that I don't really understand why this happens and I will also readily admit that I haven't done enough testing to say one way or the other based on my own experience. I've shot maybe 2 or 3 magazines with mixed loads in my lifetime. They didn't malfunction but that's hardly enough testing to draw any sort of conclusion.

So basically I'm just passing the information along for whatever anyone may feel it is worth.

[Nnobby45]

Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.

If DPX and HST both work, would it be all right to mix them?

[Hook686]

Mixed loads is a silly consept, find a round that works and stick with it.

Perhaps. Trooper Mark Coats might have had more success had he had a couple of 158, or 170 grain, hard cast, or Jacketed Soft Points in his .357 magnum instead of only 145 grain silver tips. The 145 grain hollow points did not reach the vitals of the very overweight assailant. Six hits, but not one reached a vital organ. The silver tip is a nice round, but ....

Back to the barrier penetration thing... If you're not a fracking cop, you've really got no business shooting INTO a barrier in order to shoot AT someone else. Get real.

hmmmm a 300+ pound bad guy is his own barrier. Not everyone is that dense, but you might be confronted by a muscle bound one. Then the barrier penetrator might come in handy.

[N.H. Yankee]

Another BIG issue I found when using snake shot for snakes is that it doesn't always cycle a semi reliably if at all. I am in the camp that if it comes to the point you HAVE to use a weapon its already reached the point of fight to survive which equals lethal.

[BeerSleeper]

This just doesn't sound like a good idea. Shot vs projectiles is two different methods of shooting, and that needs to be on your mind when you pull the trigger. When shooting a bullet, you have serious ricochet concerns, and you also need to be mindful of what's behind your target in the event of a miss/overpenetration. Snake shot doesn't really have those issues, due to substantially reduced range, and ricochet is almost a non-issue. Those pellets have so little energy, by time they hit one surface, there's the same as nothing left. Snake shot does give a spreading pattern, though. While still within it's range to do harm, it has spread to what, a foot or so?

Based on these different shooting characteristics, you need to know, for certain, what is in the chamber when you drop that hammer, so you can shoot accordingly.

I can't imagine those that think of snake shot in defense situations. The idea to shoot to maim/wound/etc. is just a bad idea that is a product of too much tv watching. When a violent threat has met the legal criteria for lethal defensive force, is no time for half measures. If you're not willing to commit at that point, why bother to carry?

There's the legal issues too. If you kill a mugger/rapist/etc, you MAY be sued by survivors. If you permanently blind him with a few wayward pellets of your snake shot, you will definitely be spending on legal defense.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have heard from more than one respected source that mixing loads in a single magazine can, in some instances, cause malfunctions.

I have heard this as well over the years, but have never been able to replicate it with my own testing except where one of the rounds used in the mix is a round that won't function properly in my gun to start with, mixed or not.

Perhaps. Trooper Mark Coats might have had more success had he had a couple of 158, or 170 grain, hard cast, or Jacketed Soft Points in his .357 magnum instead of only 145 grain silver tips. The 145 grain hollow points did not reach the vitals of the very overweight assailant. Six hits, but not one reached a vital organ. The silver tip is a nice round, but ....

Doubtful. The Winchester silver tips have fine penetration. http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357magnum.htm

Richard Blackburn may not have had any vital organs penetrated, but it wasn't due to inadequate penetration. The five hits simply didn't have the correct trajectory to hit the vitals.

[troy_mclure]

i used to have 2fmj underneath my jhp load in my xd40sc.

i figured that if id had already shot 8 times i wasnt penetrating deep enough.

then i actually thought about how deep a quality jhp will penetrate, and decided i was being silly, and replaced the fmj's.

[Dannyl]

HI,
on the odd occasion that I carry my Browning HP, my magazines are loaded as follows:
First two rounds are glasers (I make them and they work perfectly)
next 8 are JHP's the rest are FMJ's/

As you can see, I load for "progressive penetration".

Brgds,
Danny

[Glenn E. Meyer]

With Officer Coats, some stories say the BG was hit in the chest but I also read that the very fat guy was shot in the stomach. That would say that nothing immediately vital was hit.

[publius]

Mixing rounds makes no sense, get a good modern HP and go with it. Snak shot is downright dangerous to use. It is not even a good wounding round on smakes. Unless the perp is wearing a t-shirt you probably won't even draw blood.

[1911rocks]

You're over thinking this. You are employing deadly force....period. That will be the view in litigation. So, find a good lethal, practical round and use it in a lethal fashion. This is in the "just wound him" arena.

[raimius]

I have had a malfunction in a mixed mag.

.45ACP Remington UMC and Winchester PDX1 bonded.
After the hollowpoint, the round nose went nose up in the chamber. I haven't had this malfunction before or since with full mags of either.