80 Year old Man attacked by burglars, One shot.

OuTcAsT · July 24, 2014, 12:18 PM

http://rare.us/story/this-pistol-pac...-regretted-it/

This guy comes home to find BG's rummaging through his stuff, they attack, attempt to flee, he shoots one, DRT. The other escapes. But, was it a "good shoot" ?

If the story is true, very likely not, IMHO. What say you ?

BarryLee · July 24, 2014, 12:36 PM

While his age and possible mental capacity may come in to play it’s difficult to see how he was justified to shoot a fleeing suspect.

zxcvbob · July 24, 2014, 12:40 PM

Probably not, but some things shouldn't be analyzed all that closely.

g.willikers · July 24, 2014, 01:00 PM

From the sloppy reporting, it's hard to say what exactly happened.
Where was the gun - on him, or in another part of the house?
Were the robbers still in the house when he shot her?
Were they still possibly a threat?
Did the woman die?
Was she actually pregnant?
Were there any witnesses?
Lots of unknowns.

madmo44mag · July 24, 2014, 01:09 PM

Too may unknowns here.

What I will speculate is that like many 70 + folks I know they would rather fight to protect what is theirs and take their chances with a jury

The adage of judged by 12 vs carried by 6 comes to mind..

stephen426 · July 24, 2014, 01:12 PM

The intruders were fleeing. The report said that the woman was shot dead. While I would love to say "good riddance to bad trash", he was lo longer in danger when he pulled the trigger.

TailGator · July 24, 2014, 01:37 PM

The story is so incomplete that it is hard to say whether the shooting was justified, but one clear error that the man made is talking to the media.

OuTcAsT · July 24, 2014, 04:23 PM

A link to NBC news, Los Angeles coverage of the event:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...268364152.html

kraigwy · July 24, 2014, 05:07 PM

An 80 year old protecting himself from two youngsters would come under the "egg shell" defense in my mind.

However, I cant see shooting a fleeing suspect as being a defensive act.

But I wasn't there.

kilimanjaro · July 24, 2014, 06:02 PM

Doesn't sound defensive to me, but from what I read and heard the couple had robbed him twice before, and this time attacked him physically, both of them. So maybe the jury can sort it out, but perhaps an 80-year old can certainly be in fear for his life even when the assailants have left his house.

mete · July 24, 2014, 06:12 PM

You all should be prohibited from answering until you are 80 !!

Then you'll say they tried to take me out , take my stuff , planning to come back and finish me off. That's capital punishment !!

Blue Duck · July 24, 2014, 11:20 PM

Your house has just been broken into, you have been attacked by both people, in the heat of the moment you grab your gun and shoot one of them, when they try to run. Right or wrong, they would never convict him if I was on that jury. Of course I would probably get blackballed and never make the final cut for the jury. That's the way it usually works.

**JohnKSa** · July 24, 2014, 11:44 PM

One other lesson to be learned from this incident is NOT to run your mouth after a shooting.

Comments like this, whether true or just bluster in the heat of the moment will NOT help.

“She was dead. I shot her twice, she best be dead … (The man) had run off and left her,” he said. “I’ve never in my life shot anybody, killed anybody.”

“I shot her so that’s going to leave a message on his mind for the rest of his life,” he added.

You don't shoot multiple times to make sure someone's dead. Maybe that's not what he meant to say, but that's what people will remember him saying.

You don't shoot criminals to send a message to other criminals.

You shoot to save your life, or the lives of other innocents and you stop shooting when the situation is resolved, whether that means the criminal has expired, has fled, or has simply stopped attacking.

Maybe the shooting was justified, maybe it wasn't. But if the homeowner ends up in jail, a large part of the reason will be his inability to keep his mouth shut.

Scorch · July 25, 2014, 12:53 AM

Sometimes it's better to not say anything. This is proof. He could be convicted by his own words. Remember what Joe Friday said, "anything you say . . . "

mete · July 25, 2014, 03:08 AM

More details are coming out now. They change things and certainly show he should have kept his mouth shut.

Jim243 · July 25, 2014, 04:23 AM

Quote:

But, was it a "good shoot" ?

No it wasn't. But that might not matter.

Talk about a NO WIN situation. I would hate to be the DA that has to decide what to do about this one.

Jim

Brit · July 25, 2014, 04:43 AM

I am 79 in October. I shoot good, not in bad condition physically.

Had 2 stents fitted in 2011, take medication. Seems like I would require medical attention after a shooting, ambulance for any injured individuals, and me.

Been involved in lots of physical fights in my younger years, (Bouncer for 5 years in Liverpool UK, 1960 till 1965) the first thing I expect the Lawyer will do, negate the interview!

The difference in your thoughts, watching a front sight, pressing a trigger, and talking about those actions some time later? Massive.

skoro · July 25, 2014, 08:42 AM

I'd think that statements to the press would NEVER be a good move, regardless of how justified the shooting.

SansSouci · July 25, 2014, 09:33 AM

In California, it would probably be a good shoot under California Penal Code Section 197: http://www.shouselaw.com/excusable-j...alifornia.html

coldbeer · July 25, 2014, 09:41 AM

What kind of woman robs a house while 8 months pregnant? I'm guessing she was a drug addict. I couldn't bring myself to shoot a pregnant woman. Then again I wasn't robbed 3 times and beaten by these drug addicts either.

**OldMarksman** · July 25, 2014, 09:48 AM

These quotes from today's Huff Post will likely prove extremely damaging:

"Greer told KNBC-TV he shot Miller twice in the back as she ran away."

" She says, 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant — I'm going to have a baby,' and I shot her anyway," Greer said in the interview Wednesday."

"The homeowner was able to get to another room where he grabbed a gun and returned to open fire on the suspects. "

"They fled through the garage and into an alley, and Greer gave chase, firing at them again outside, McDonnell said."

"Miller was hit, collapsed in the alley and died at the scene, McDonnell said."

" "The lady didn't run as fast as the man, so I shot her in the back twice," Greer told the TV station. "She's dead ... but he got away." "

Emphasis added.

Did he talk too much? Of course. But even had he remained mute, the triers of fact would still have forensic evidence that would tell the story.

manta49 · July 25, 2014, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Probably not, but some things shouldn't be analyzed all that closely.

Any shooting were a pregnant woman and her unborn is killed by being shot in the back, should definitely be analysed very closely. It does concern me that some people think that it ok to shoot someone and then imply they were burglars they got what they deserved, and the police should turn a blind eye. Burglar or innocent person they deserve the same impartial investigation into what happened by the police. She might of being guilty her unborn child certainly was not.

Quote:

In California, it would probably be a good shoot under California Penal Code Section 197

Just because something is legal doesn't mean its the right or proper thing to do.

zxcvbob · July 25, 2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Any shooting were a pregnant woman and her unborn is killed by being shot in the back, should definitely be analysed very closely. It does concern me that some people think that it ok to shoot someone and then imply they were burglars they got what they deserved, and the police should turn a blind eye. Burglar or innocent person they deserve the same impartial investigation into what happened by the police.

I understand what you're saying. The old man didn't choose the time and the place for this to happen, the robbers did. He was injured and probably not thinking totally clearly. Best thing for the DA to do here (in my opinion) is send it to a grand jury and soft-sell it; steer them towards a no-bill.

**OldMarksman** · July 25, 2014, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Posted by zxcvbob: The old man didn't choose the time and the place for this to happen, the robbers did.

That is completely irrelevant.

But he did choose to chase them outside. Bad move.

Quote:

He was injured and probably not thinking totally clearly.

He almost certainly wasn't thinking clearly.

Bad decisions result in bad consequences.

jeager106 · July 25, 2014, 12:04 PM

Quote:
"but one clear error that the man made is talking to the media."

Yeah buddy. I don't like mentioning much of the training I've had being a police officer as I try not to sound like some kind of "know everything" expert. That said I was trained by a couple of well know authorities on courtroom survival and the aftermath following a self defense shoot.
I'll mention just one important aspect.
Shut up! There are ways to not volunteer information w/o seeming as tho one has something to hide or appearing uncooperative.
Just a thought for your consideration.

July 24, 2014, 12:18 PM	#1
OuTcAsT Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Location: Eastern, TN Posts: 1,236	80 Year old Man attacked by burglars, One shot. http://rare.us/story/this-pistol-pac...-regretted-it/ This guy comes home to find BG's rummaging through his stuff, they attack, attempt to flee, he shoots one, DRT. The other escapes. But, was it a "good shoot" ? If the story is true, very likely not, IMHO. What say you ? __________________ WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood *Does not morality imply the last clear chance?* - WildAlaska -

July 24, 2014, 12:36 PM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	While his age and possible mental capacity may come in to play it’s difficult to see how he was justified to shoot a fleeing suspect. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 24, 2014, 12:40 PM	#3
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	Probably not, but some things shouldn't be analyzed all that closely. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

July 24, 2014, 01:00 PM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	From the sloppy reporting, it's hard to say what exactly happened. Where was the gun - on him, or in another part of the house? Were the robbers still in the house when he shot her? Were they still possibly a threat? Did the woman die? Was she actually pregnant? Were there any witnesses? Lots of unknowns. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.” Last edited by g.willikers; July 24, 2014 at 01:34 PM.

July 24, 2014, 01:09 PM	#5
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	Too may unknowns here. What I will speculate is that like many 70 + folks I know they would rather fight to protect what is theirs and take their chances with a jury The adage of judged by 12 vs carried by 6 comes to mind.. __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

July 24, 2014, 01:12 PM	#6
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	The intruders were fleeing. The report said that the woman was shot dead. While I would love to say "good riddance to bad trash", he was lo longer in danger when he pulled the trigger. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

July 24, 2014, 01:37 PM	#7
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	The story is so incomplete that it is hard to say whether the shooting was justified, but one clear error that the man made is talking to the media.

July 24, 2014, 04:23 PM	#8
OuTcAsT Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Location: Eastern, TN Posts: 1,236	A link to NBC news, Los Angeles coverage of the event: http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...268364152.html __________________ WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood *Does not morality imply the last clear chance?* - WildAlaska -

July 24, 2014, 05:07 PM	#9
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	An 80 year old protecting himself from two youngsters would come under the "egg shell" defense in my mind. However, I cant see shooting a fleeing suspect as being a defensive act. But I wasn't there. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

July 24, 2014, 06:02 PM	#10
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	Doesn't sound defensive to me, but from what I read and heard the couple had robbed him twice before, and this time attacked him physically, both of them. So maybe the jury can sort it out, but perhaps an 80-year old can certainly be in fear for his life even when the assailants have left his house.

July 24, 2014, 06:12 PM	#11
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	You all should be prohibited from answering until you are 80 !! Then you'll say they tried to take me out , take my stuff , planning to come back and finish me off. That's capital punishment !! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

July 24, 2014, 11:20 PM	#12
Blue Duck Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2006 Posts: 402	Your house has just been broken into, you have been attacked by both people, in the heat of the moment you grab your gun and shoot one of them, when they try to run. Right or wrong, they would never convict him if I was on that jury. Of course I would probably get blackballed and never make the final cut for the jury. That's the way it usually works.

July 24, 2014, 11:44 PM	#13
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,973	One other lesson to be learned from this incident is NOT to run your mouth after a shooting. Comments like this, whether true or just bluster in the heat of the moment will NOT help. “She was dead. I shot her twice, she best be dead … (The man) had run off and left her,” he said. “I’ve never in my life shot anybody, killed anybody.” “I shot her so that’s going to leave a message on his mind for the rest of his life,” he added. You don't shoot multiple times to make sure someone's dead. Maybe that's not what he meant to say, but that's what people will remember him saying. You don't shoot criminals to send a message to other criminals. You shoot to save your life, or the lives of other innocents and you stop shooting when the situation is resolved, whether that means the criminal has expired, has fled, or has simply stopped attacking. Maybe the shooting was justified, maybe it wasn't. But if the homeowner ends up in jail, a large part of the reason will be his inability to keep his mouth shut. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

July 25, 2014, 12:53 AM	#14
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Sometimes it's better to not say anything. This is proof. He could be convicted by his own words. Remember what Joe Friday said, "anything you say . . . " __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 25, 2014, 03:08 AM	#15
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	More details are coming out now. They change things and certainly show he should have kept his mouth shut. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

July 25, 2014, 04:43 AM	#17
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	I am 79 in October. I shoot good, not in bad condition physically. Had 2 stents fitted in 2011, take medication. Seems like I would require medical attention after a shooting, ambulance for any injured individuals, and me. Been involved in lots of physical fights in my younger years, (Bouncer for 5 years in Liverpool UK, 1960 till 1965) the first thing I expect the Lawyer will do, negate the interview! The difference in your thoughts, watching a front sight, pressing a trigger, and talking about those actions some time later? Massive.

July 25, 2014, 08:42 AM	#18
skoro Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,952	I'd think that statements to the press would NEVER be a good move, regardless of how justified the shooting.

July 25, 2014, 09:33 AM	#19
SansSouci Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2013 Location: Heart of Reagan Country Posts: 479	In California, it would probably be a good shoot under California Penal Code Section 197: http://www.shouselaw.com/excusable-j...alifornia.html

July 25, 2014, 09:41 AM	#20
coldbeer Junior member Join Date: February 21, 2012 Location: Woodhaven MI Posts: 477	What kind of woman robs a house while 8 months pregnant? I'm guessing she was a drug addict. I couldn't bring myself to shoot a pregnant woman. Then again I wasn't robbed 3 times and beaten by these drug addicts either.

July 25, 2014, 09:48 AM	#21
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	These quotes from today's Huff Post will likely prove extremely damaging: "Greer told KNBC-TV he shot Miller twice in the back as she ran away." " She says, 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant — I'm going to have a baby,' and I shot her anyway," Greer said in the interview Wednesday." "The homeowner was able to get to another room where he grabbed a gun and returned to open fire on the suspects. " "They fled through the garage and into an alley, and Greer gave chase, firing at them again outside, McDonnell said." "Miller was hit, collapsed in the alley and died at the scene, McDonnell said." " "The lady didn't run as fast as the man, so I shot her in the back twice," Greer told the TV station. "She's dead ... but he got away." " Emphasis added. Did he talk too much? Of course. But even had he remained mute, the triers of fact would still have forensic evidence that would tell the story.

July 25, 2014, 12:04 PM	#25
jeager106 Junior member Join Date: November 24, 2006 Location: N.E. Oh. Posts: 527	if "it" happens then shut up! Quote: "but one clear error that the man made is talking to the media." Yeah buddy. I don't like mentioning much of the training I've had being a police officer as I try not to sound like some kind of "know everything" expert. That said I was trained by a couple of well know authorities on courtroom survival and the aftermath following a self defense shoot. I'll mention just one important aspect. Shut up! There are ways to not volunteer information w/o seeming as tho one has something to hide or appearing uncooperative. Just a thought for your consideration.