Difference between Sub-Machinegun and a Machine gun - Page 2

alan · December 25, 2004, 07:38 PM

Greenfurniture:

Others might know better than I but I had the impression that a "light machine gun" was BIPOD mounted, whereas a heavy machine gunwas TRIPOD mounted.

Of course, re this definition, there is the "problem" of the U.S. Caliber 30 LIGHT MACHINE GUN, of WW 2, which was TRIPOD mounted.

It could be, and here would enter those "others", people who know more than I do, that light machine guns were generally air cooled weapoins, while the heavy maching gun was usually water cooled. There are problems with that also, as with the aircraft machine guns, the U.S. military used, in particular the 50 caliber BMG, which was aircooled. So many questions, so few answers. I think however, that re sub machine guns, the genre was composed of automatic, perhaps selectivefire weapons that fired the pistol cartridge, without regard to caliber. For instance, re the Thompason Sub Machine Gun, it was always chambered for the 45 ACP round. I think that there might have been a small number chambered for the 9mm Parabellun round, but that they were quite rare.

Hkmp5sd · December 25, 2004, 11:30 PM

A "Light Machinegun" is generally defined as a machinegun firing a rifle caliber cartridge and capable of being carried by a single person. It has somewhat morphed into the "Squad Automatic Weapon" or SAW. A "Heavy Machinegun" is commonly any machinegun over 12.7mm caliber.

There are some crossover weapons. A "General Purpose Machinegun" or GPM is a machinegun that can be used as a bipod-mounted squad automatic weapon or with a tripod for sustained fire. Kind of a marriage between a LMG and a HMG.

freedumblover · December 26, 2004, 12:32 AM

Quote:

For instance, re the Thompason Sub Machine Gun, it was always chambered for the 45 ACP round. I think that there might have been a small number chambered for the 9mm Parabellun round, but that they were quite rare.

I don't know about 9x19, but I do know there were a few Thompsons made in .38 Super.

alan · December 26, 2004, 11:34 PM

freedumblover wrote:

I don't know about 9x19, but I do know there were a few Thompsons made in .38 Super.

********

Curious note the above. Might they have been made for the FBI, which I believe used or issued Government Model Pistols in that caliber at one point in time.

I believe that the Thompsons in 9mm would have been WW2 items, unless I'm confusing them with the M-3 "Greasegun", for which there was a 9mm "conversion kit".

By the bye, re Thompsons in 38 Super, if you could furnish documentary backup or reference, that could turn out to be a real "bar room bettor".

SSgt Aston · December 26, 2004, 11:49 PM

There was an article in one of the Gun Digests a few years back about experimental Thompsons, including one in 30-06. Unfortunately I don't have access to my collection of Firearm related reading material or I'd let you know which issue it was in.

Tamara · December 27, 2004, 09:46 AM

Y'know, a 10mm Thompson would just rock the house...

Edmond · January 13, 2008, 05:20 PM

Just look at what is written on it

alan · January 13, 2008, 11:43 PM

SSgt Aston wrote:

There was an article in one of the Gun Digests a few years back about experimental Thompsons, including one in 30-06. Unfortunately I don't have access to my collection of Firearm related reading material or I'd let you know which issue it was in.

-------------------

Interesting but I do not think I'd be really interested in firing one, even in semi-automatic mode, if there was such.

**44 AMP** · January 17, 2008, 11:53 PM

Was a term coined by Thompson, referring to their gun. it came to be generally accepted that Americans called all pistol caliber automatic weapons "submachine guns". The Germans called theirs "maschinenpistole" (machinepistols) or MP, no matter if they had a stock or not.

Thompson SMGs were made in .45 ACP, with a reported handful in .38 Super and in .45 Thompson (which was a longer cased hotter .45auto round) Also there was supposed to have been a Thompson (prototype?) in .30-06!

FYI, the German designation of MP was used to allow the production of the first practical assault rifles, the MP 43 & MP 44, later known as the Stg 44. Hitler had forbidden work on new rifles (not needed), but allowed developement of new submachineguns (MPs). Even though firing a shortened rifle round (and therefore not technically an MP) the guns were called MPs to allow their developement in spite of Hitler's orders. After small numbers were fielded, requests from the front clamoring for more of the new "rifles", Hitler relented, and authorised them as "Sturmgewehr" (assault rifle).

So, traditionally, submachine guns fire pistol ammo, 9mm and .45ACP being the most common. Machine guns fire full power rifle ammo (judged by WW II standards), and are determined to be light, medium, or heavy machineguns by their size, weight, capacity for sustained fire, and method of mounting. Water cooled machine guns are considered heavy, as are some air cooled designs. Other air cooled designs are considerd medium or light, depending on several factors. Machine guns firing rounds larger than standard rifle are automatically considered heavy machineguns.

Assault rifles WERE defined after the German Sturmgewehr set the standard, and are air cooled, magazine fed, selective fire and fire a round greater than a pistol and less than the traditional full power rifle round (WWII standard - .303 British, 8mm Mauser, .30-06, etc.)

After the "assault weapon" hysteria of the late 80s and early 90s, the definition of assault rifle has become somewhat blurred, as a great number of people incorrectly call anything that looks like a modern military rifle an "assault rifle/weapon", and modern dictionaries include the incorrect defintions because they are in "popular usage".

SDC · January 18, 2008, 09:30 AM

Thompson ended up dropping the idea for his .30-06 "Auto-Rifle" after the BAR was adopted, but he DID keep using the name for some of his designs; here's a picture of a few of them (chambered in 9mm, 7.63 Mauser, and .45 Auto) that were built by BSA for sale in the UK, but they never caught on:

December 26, 2004, 11:49 PM	#30
SSgt Aston Member Join Date: October 30, 2004 Location: Iraq Posts: 53	There was an article in one of the Gun Digests a few years back about experimental Thompsons, including one in 30-06. Unfortunately I don't have access to my collection of Firearm related reading material or I'd let you know which issue it was in. __________________ Don't take life too seriously, you'll never make it out alive.

December 27, 2004, 09:46 AM	#31
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	Y'know, a 10mm Thompson would just rock the house... __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

January 17, 2008, 11:53 PM	#34
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Submachine gun Was a term coined by Thompson, referring to their gun. it came to be generally accepted that Americans called all pistol caliber automatic weapons "submachine guns". The Germans called theirs "maschinenpistole" (machinepistols) or MP, no matter if they had a stock or not. Thompson SMGs were made in .45 ACP, with a reported handful in .38 Super and in .45 Thompson (which was a longer cased hotter .45auto round) Also there was supposed to have been a Thompson (prototype?) in .30-06! FYI, the German designation of MP was used to allow the production of the first practical assault rifles, the MP 43 & MP 44, later known as the Stg 44. Hitler had forbidden work on new rifles (not needed), but allowed developement of new submachineguns (MPs). Even though firing a shortened rifle round (and therefore not technically an MP) the guns were called MPs to allow their developement in spite of Hitler's orders. After small numbers were fielded, requests from the front clamoring for more of the new "rifles", Hitler relented, and authorised them as "Sturmgewehr" (assault rifle). So, traditionally, submachine guns fire pistol ammo, 9mm and .45ACP being the most common. Machine guns fire full power rifle ammo (judged by WW II standards), and are determined to be light, medium, or heavy machineguns by their size, weight, capacity for sustained fire, and method of mounting. Water cooled machine guns are considered heavy, as are some air cooled designs. Other air cooled designs are considerd medium or light, depending on several factors. Machine guns firing rounds larger than standard rifle are automatically considered heavy machineguns. Assault rifles WERE defined after the German Sturmgewehr set the standard, and are air cooled, magazine fed, selective fire and fire a round greater than a pistol and less than the traditional full power rifle round (WWII standard - .303 British, 8mm Mauser, .30-06, etc.) After the "assault weapon" hysteria of the late 80s and early 90s, the definition of assault rifle has become somewhat blurred, as a great number of people incorrectly call anything that looks like a modern military rifle an "assault rifle/weapon", and modern dictionaries include the incorrect defintions because they are in "popular usage". __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 18, 2008, 09:30 AM	#35
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	Thompson ended up dropping the idea for his .30-06 "Auto-Rifle" after the BAR was adopted, but he DID keep using the name for some of his designs; here's a picture of a few of them (chambered in 9mm, 7.63 Mauser, and .45 Auto) that were built by BSA for sale in the UK, but they never caught on: __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

December 25, 2004, 07:38 PM	#26
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Greenfurniture: Others might know better than I but I had the impression that a "light machine gun" was BIPOD mounted, whereas a heavy machine gunwas TRIPOD mounted. Of course, re this definition, there is the "problem" of the U.S. Caliber 30 LIGHT MACHINE GUN, of WW 2, which was TRIPOD mounted. It could be, and here would enter those "others", people who know more than I do, that light machine guns were generally air cooled weapoins, while the heavy maching gun was usually water cooled. There are problems with that also, as with the aircraft machine guns, the U.S. military used, in particular the 50 caliber BMG, which was aircooled. So many questions, so few answers. I think however, that re sub machine guns, the genre was composed of automatic, perhaps selectivefire weapons that fired the pistol cartridge, without regard to caliber. For instance, re the Thompason Sub Machine Gun, it was always chambered for the 45 ACP round. I think that there might have been a small number chambered for the 9mm Parabellun round, but that they were quite rare.

December 25, 2004, 11:30 PM	#27
Hkmp5sd Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: Winter Haven, Florida Posts: 4,303	A "Light Machinegun" is generally defined as a machinegun firing a rifle caliber cartridge and capable of being carried by a single person. It has somewhat morphed into the "Squad Automatic Weapon" or SAW. A "Heavy Machinegun" is commonly any machinegun over 12.7mm caliber. There are some crossover weapons. A "General Purpose Machinegun" or GPM is a machinegun that can be used as a bipod-mounted squad automatic weapon or with a tripod for sustained fire. Kind of a marriage between a LMG and a HMG.

December 26, 2004, 11:34 PM	#29
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	freedumblover wrote: I don't know about 9x19, but I do know there were a few Thompsons made in .38 Super. ******** Curious note the above. Might they have been made for the FBI, which I believe used or issued Government Model Pistols in that caliber at one point in time. I believe that the Thompsons in 9mm would have been WW2 items, unless I'm confusing them with the M-3 "Greasegun", for which there was a 9mm "conversion kit". By the bye, re Thompsons in 38 Super, if you could furnish documentary backup or reference, that could turn out to be a real "bar room bettor".

January 13, 2008, 05:20 PM	#32
Edmond Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2004 Location: Ukraine, Europe Posts: 120	Just look at what is written on it

January 13, 2008, 11:43 PM	#33
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	SSgt Aston wrote: There was an article in one of the Gun Digests a few years back about experimental Thompsons, including one in 30-06. Unfortunately I don't have access to my collection of Firearm related reading material or I'd let you know which issue it was in. ------------------- Interesting but I do not think I'd be really interested in firing one, even in semi-automatic mode, if there was such.