Any Licensing cases post Heller?

TargetTerror · July 15, 2009, 07:51 PM

Does anyone know of any cases, articles, etc that deal with the issue of firearms licenses post-Heller? I'm curious about states that require a license simply to possess (NOT carry issues).

ADB · July 15, 2009, 10:15 PM

I'd be interested in that too. NY has some wearisome pistol laws dating back to 1911, which are the main reason I don't own a pistol. To much work and expense.

Yellowfin · July 15, 2009, 11:01 PM

As soon as we get incorporation, NY, NJ, MA, and MD need to get hit like a fly on a windshield with lawsuits on carry permits.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 16, 2009, 12:27 PM

Yellowfin - since NY for example has a permit system and there are a fair number of permits (outside of NYC, of course) - what would be the Heller challenge? Owing long arms (with restrictions) is possible in NYS.

Excuse my ignorance but I thought Heller had provisions for some reasonable (hahaha!) gun restrictions.

Heller seemed a stronger case since the SCOTUS left open restrictions.

So can an RKBA challenge be mounted for carry permits given they do exist with restrictions. What do the legal experts think?

Brian Pfleuger · July 16, 2009, 12:45 PM

The only real question marks in NY will be NYC and the AWB. Most of the rest of the state is, effectively, "shall issue" on handgun permits, with a few small exceptions.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 16, 2009, 01:02 PM

I thought Erie Country was pretty strict and some folks get restrictions on the permit that don't allow concealed carry.

Brian Pfleuger · July 16, 2009, 01:28 PM

Yeah, those are the "few exceptions". Onondaga county is also iffy, it seems almost random from what people I've talked to, Albany county can be tough too.

I suppose that from a population perspective, simply due to NYC, the majority of the state is in "problem" areas, but geographically and, quite frankly, from a perspective of people who actually WANT access to firearms, most people have no trouble at all.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see most all of the restrictions dropped, especially the nonsense in the AWB about pistol grips and such, but as a whole, there are states a lot worse than NY.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 16, 2009, 03:24 PM

When I lived in Buffalo and looked into the Erie County process, they were not that encouraging. Quite a few years ago, though.

Used to drool over the handgun case at the Sporting goods store.

Brian Pfleuger · July 16, 2009, 04:53 PM

I think even Erie county has lightened up, depending on where you are in the county. Ironically, the people who most need a defensive gun (Buffalo) are the ones least likely to get one. My dads entire family lives in Erie county (Fredonia/Silver Creek area) and almost all of the "outdoorsy" types have handguns. I don't know the process but, holy smokes, if you saw some of those guys coming you'd do a SERIOUS check on their background... and they all got permits.

I actually think that, outside of NYC, Albany county is probably the worst in the state by a wide margin. The entire center part of the state is practically "shall issue", with Tompkins County (the city of Ithaca being the San Francisco of the east) as the only real grey area.

ADB · July 16, 2009, 05:12 PM

Glenn, I'm told that there's some efforts going on to make the pistol permit process in EC much faster and easier. There was somebody on here as a matter of fact who was working with a member of the EC Legislature to make it happen.

peetzakilla, I think the most likely target as far as NY gun laws go would be the permit requirement for simple possession, let alone concealed carry. If that got knocked down and the fees for CC permits got a little more reasonable, I'd call it a win.

Brian Pfleuger · July 16, 2009, 05:33 PM

I agree. I'd settle for "shall issue". That would make me a happy man.

That and a little less hassle when I add a gun to the permit, I mean for crying out loud, I already went through the whole dang deal, I already have a gun, what's with the nonsense to add another one?

ADB · July 16, 2009, 08:05 PM

"Shall issue" would be good. I understand the reasoning behind "may issue," but in practice letting the local police decide who gets a permit just invites corruption: permits for friends and cronies, denials for people they don't like. Still, I'd live with just dropping the permit requirement to own.

YodaMage · July 16, 2009, 09:42 PM

EC is currently 12->15 months.

Get app, take gun class ($60), submit references, get printed ($15), submit app ($105).

References get contacted in 6-9 mos. Then package goes and sits for 6 mos waiting for judge.

Some judges are still denying based on 'just cause'. None are issuing without restrictions. You can apply to have restrictions removed after 1 year by paying a fee and hoping...crap shoot.

TargetTerror · July 16, 2009, 09:59 PM

Thanks for all the posts everyone! I didn't think it was possible, but it sounds like NY is actually worse than MA for handgun laws :barf:

Once the Second Amendment is incorporated against the states, licensing should become a rather fascinating topic. There are no other fundamental rights that are subject to a license, even if all our rights are subject to reasonable restrictions. The closest I can think of is a poll tax, and those have pretty much all been struck down.

The biggest thing to me is the timing. The right to a gun for defense is a continual right, which of course raises the question of what happens to the right while you are waiting to complete the licensing process?

Brian Pfleuger · July 17, 2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

it sounds like NY is actually worse than MA for handgun laws

What's the process in MA?

July 15, 2009, 07:51 PM	#1
TargetTerror Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Posts: 424	Any Licensing cases post Heller? Does anyone know of any cases, articles, etc that deal with the issue of firearms licenses post-Heller? I'm curious about states that require a license simply to possess (NOT carry issues). __________________ Head shots are hard, but nut shots are twice as hard.

July 15, 2009, 11:01 PM	#3
Yellowfin Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2007 Location: Lancaster Co, PA Posts: 2,311	As soon as we get incorporation, NY, NJ, MA, and MD need to get hit like a fly on a windshield with lawsuits on carry permits. __________________ Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" - Penn Jillette

July 16, 2009, 12:27 PM	#4
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Yellowfin - since NY for example has a permit system and there are a fair number of permits (outside of NYC, of course) - what would be the Heller challenge? Owing long arms (with restrictions) is possible in NYS. Excuse my ignorance but I thought Heller had provisions for some reasonable (hahaha!) gun restrictions. Heller seemed a stronger case since the SCOTUS left open restrictions. So can an RKBA challenge be mounted for carry permits given they do exist with restrictions. What do the legal experts think? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 16, 2009, 12:45 PM	#5
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The only real question marks in NY will be NYC and the AWB. Most of the rest of the state is, effectively, "shall issue" on handgun permits, with a few small exceptions. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 16, 2009, 01:02 PM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I thought Erie Country was pretty strict and some folks get restrictions on the permit that don't allow concealed carry. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 15, 2009, 10:15 PM	#2
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	I'd be interested in that too. NY has some wearisome pistol laws dating back to 1911, which are the main reason I don't own a pistol. To much work and expense.

July 16, 2009, 01:28 PM	#7
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Yeah, those are the "few exceptions". Onondaga county is also iffy, it seems almost random from what people I've talked to, Albany county can be tough too. I suppose that from a population perspective, simply due to NYC, the majority of the state is in "problem" areas, but geographically and, quite frankly, from a perspective of people who actually WANT access to firearms, most people have no trouble at all. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see most all of the restrictions dropped, especially the nonsense in the AWB about pistol grips and such, but as a whole, there are states a lot worse than NY. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 16, 2009, 03:24 PM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	When I lived in Buffalo and looked into the Erie County process, they were not that encouraging. Quite a few years ago, though. Used to drool over the handgun case at the Sporting goods store. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 16, 2009, 04:53 PM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I think even Erie county has lightened up, depending on where you are in the county. Ironically, the people who most need a defensive gun (Buffalo) are the ones least likely to get one. My dads entire family lives in Erie county (Fredonia/Silver Creek area) and almost all of the "outdoorsy" types have handguns. I don't know the process but, holy smokes, if you saw some of those guys coming you'd do a SERIOUS check on their background... and they all got permits. I actually think that, outside of NYC, Albany county is probably the worst in the state by a wide margin. The entire center part of the state is practically "shall issue", with Tompkins County (the city of Ithaca being the San Francisco of the east) as the only real grey area. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 16, 2009, 05:12 PM	#10
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	Glenn, I'm told that there's some efforts going on to make the pistol permit process in EC much faster and easier. There was somebody on here as a matter of fact who was working with a member of the EC Legislature to make it happen. peetzakilla, I think the most likely target as far as NY gun laws go would be the permit requirement for simple possession, let alone concealed carry. If that got knocked down and the fees for CC permits got a little more reasonable, I'd call it a win.

July 16, 2009, 05:33 PM	#11
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I agree. I'd settle for "shall issue". That would make me a happy man. That and a little less hassle when I add a gun to the permit, I mean for crying out loud, I already went through the whole dang deal, I already have a gun, what's with the nonsense to add another one? __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

July 16, 2009, 08:05 PM	#12
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	"Shall issue" would be good. I understand the reasoning behind "may issue," but in practice letting the local police decide who gets a permit just invites corruption: permits for friends and cronies, denials for people they don't like. Still, I'd live with just dropping the permit requirement to own.

July 16, 2009, 09:42 PM	#13
YodaMage Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Grand Island, NY Posts: 38	EC is currently 12->15 months. Get app, take gun class ($60), submit references, get printed ($15), submit app ($105). References get contacted in 6-9 mos. Then package goes and sits for 6 mos waiting for judge. Some judges are still denying based on 'just cause'. None are issuing without restrictions. You can apply to have restrictions removed after 1 year by paying a fee and hoping...crap shoot.

July 16, 2009, 09:59 PM	#14
TargetTerror Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Posts: 424	Thanks for all the posts everyone! I didn't think it was possible, but it sounds like NY is actually worse than MA for handgun laws :barf: Once the Second Amendment is incorporated against the states, licensing should become a rather fascinating topic. There are no other fundamental rights that are subject to a license, even if all our rights are subject to reasonable restrictions. The closest I can think of is a poll tax, and those have pretty much all been struck down. The biggest thing to me is the timing. The right to a gun for defense is a continual right, which of course raises the question of what happens to the right while you are waiting to complete the licensing process? __________________ Head shots are hard, but nut shots are twice as hard.