Did I over-react or under-react?

azredhawk44 · October 11, 2007, 03:05 PM

I was at Walmart yesterday.

I walked into the store, and it's one of those giant walmarts with a grocery store too. Two middle eastern guys are standing in the lobby, walking slowly, between the registers and the produce area. Both are dressed pretty well in slacks and button-up shirts, and one has a large backpack on, maybe 2500 cubic inches.

The one with the backpack has very negative body language. Arms crossed, eyes moving all over.

I immediately got really far away from them and went to the back of the store. I thought it over a bit, and wasn't sure if I should inform a store employee, call the police, or just leave it be.

I drift around back to the front of the store, but way on the other side from where the middle eastern guys were (I made a big U around the back basically) and they were walking slowly, taking notice of everything around them, same negative body language. I got away from them again.

I picked up my purchases and noticed that these guys had split up now, and the guy with the pack was in the middle of the store in the clothing department. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the girls' clothing department.

I got in line at a register, and I saw the guy with the backpack leave the store without any purchases. He came back in again with his other buddy (who didn't make any purchases either, evidently) and they went into the produce area again. I took a picture of backpack-man with my cell phone and looked for a manager at the store.

I didn't find a manager, but I did tell the nearest non-Opie-ish employee I could find and pointed the guys out. I left right after that.

But guys... this felt just like either:
1) CAIR screwing around looking for a "racial profiling" lawsuit to latch onto, or
2) a dry run of an attack with a "martyr" and his handler.

What's the appropriate response?

Nekron · October 11, 2007, 03:13 PM

Sounds a lot like option #2 to me, but I wasn't there.

Musketeer · October 11, 2007, 03:14 PM

Contact Homeland Security and send them the photo. Let them track it down. You hear all the time about "heightenned security" and "reporting suspicious behaviour." That is what you saw.

If it was CAIR trolling it is better that the authotities know it. If it was real you really want the authotiies to know it.

C Philip · October 11, 2007, 03:30 PM

Maybe they were shoplifting and putting the goods in the backpack? That could explain the nervous behavior.

ZeSpectre · October 11, 2007, 03:39 PM

My general set of instructions...

1) Trust your instincts.
2) Move to a safe(er) location and observe as best you can
3) Get you and yours the heck out
4) Report what you've seen with as much detail as possible.

Let the paid people decide what they are going to do with the information.

----------------------
Sounds like you did fine.

CrazyIvan007 · October 11, 2007, 03:40 PM

Well, considering you are in Arizona, and I have heard some stories about cities in Arizona being US Al Qaeda training grounds...I would say your response was appropriate if not a bit less than it should have been.

I woulda tried to scope them out from the parking lot and wait for them to return to their car, get the license plate number then go home and prepare my pictures and a written outline/essay of the incident to be reported to my local FBI office.

Luckily, suicide bombings are done with individuals isolating themselves in the midst of their assumed enemies. You wouldn't have 2 or 3 guys around with only one of them about to go off. No use wasting 3 guys on one bomb. If they all had backpacks, that may be worrysome. If only one guy was there, or, if you saw the guy go into the bathroom and come out without the backpack, I would run like hell. Not saying it wouldn't happen if there is more than one together, but it is less likely.

But, my point is, if they were truely doing what I think they were doing in light of your story, they were just scoping out a target or training for doing something like that.

Send this story and the photo to your local conservative radio talk show. Send them, personally, to a detective at your local police department and send it to the local FBI office. In-person delivery would be the best option.

Keep a heightened sense of environment and see if you notice anything like this again. Don't become a racist, by any means...but some situations are certinly reasonable to have concern.

Not something to play with.

EDIT: The other day I saw 2 middle easterners circling the parking lot to our office building in a new rental VW Passat. They were scoping the building as they went by with each pass. They were dressed in casual dress, i.e. button up shirt, slacks. They were between 18 and 30. They circled the parking lot about 4 times. I then went to leave and got behind them on my way out, as though it was just the way it was going. I wrote down the license plate and later gave it to the building security and owner. I don't think it was terroristic activity, but a few months ago, our office was broken into.

You never know what you might be preventing when you are being observant.

dwatts47 · October 11, 2007, 03:42 PM

I don't know How i'd have reacted to that.

azredhawk44 · October 11, 2007, 03:44 PM

I sent a tip to the FBI via their website, and offered them the cell phone pic if they want it.

spacemanspiff · October 11, 2007, 03:47 PM

I wonder what their reaction would be if someone ran up to them screaming 'allah akbar!' and moving as if to detonate a bomb vest. Would they stand there serenely or try to get out of the way?

Or better yet, approach from behind, grab one of their arms and say "I'm Jack Bauer, I need you to answer some questions."

CrazyIvan007 · October 11, 2007, 03:58 PM

Do you remember the 29-year-old man who used the name Hani Hanjour as the hijacker who crashed the plane into the Pentagon? He attended CRM Airline Training Centre in Scottsdale, Arizona.

I doubt he is/was the only extremist in Scottsdale. Evil likes to travel in small packs.

azredhawk44 · October 11, 2007, 03:58 PM

Wow, just got off the phone with the FBI.

They're fast with that tip line.

They don't want the pic yet, and they thanked me for the info. Don't know if they will dig further on it or not.

But at least they have a fast phone center.

azredhawk44 · October 11, 2007, 04:00 PM

Quote:

I wonder what their reaction would be if someone ran up to them screaming 'allah akbar!' and moving as if to detonate a bomb vest. Would they stand there serenely or try to get out of the way?

As an aside, would that be grounds for self defense?

Yuck, not that I ever hope to find out...

Tom2 · October 11, 2007, 04:48 PM

Probably one of those things that everyone will igore till something happens, then we will lose a few people, as a backpack attack is not going to take out alot of people in a Walmart, as they are not bunched together like in a movie theatre or something. And then anyone fitting the profile with a backpack or duffle bag or something is gonna be intercepted. Does not sound like the biggest "bang" for their dollar if you ask me. Maybe just foreigners acting weird, or awkward, that is known to happen!

dbsoundguy · October 11, 2007, 07:03 PM

You did great, more people should be aware of thier surrondings

Wildalaska · October 11, 2007, 07:10 PM

You did good. I love blowing in suspicious characters (especially DUIers who run me off the road or real ugly hookers on my corner)

I personally would have screamed TANGO TANGO TANGO and then done a few tactical rolls down the lingerie isle, but thats me, I wear pink thongs so my actions are generally suspect.

WildwherearemyflashbangsAlaska TM

MisterPX · October 11, 2007, 07:13 PM

How would you have reacted if the guys were white, or black? If any different, then you overreacted. If you would have done the same thing, then no sweat.

CrazyIvan007 · October 11, 2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

How would you have reacted if the guys were white, or black? If any different, then you overreacted. If you would have done the same thing, then no sweat.

Blah...racial and religious profiling IS EFFECTIVE...ask the Israelis. And just because you may pick someone out of a crowd because of their race/ethnicity does not mean you are racist.

Racism is hate for someone because of their ethnicity. Ethnic Profiling is taking the stats from reality and applying them to precaution and awareness.

john1911 · October 11, 2007, 08:37 PM

Trust your gut instinct.

rgates · October 11, 2007, 09:04 PM

Reacted differently if the guys were white or black? I would have. I might have thought they were shoplifting but from the above description I would have wondered the same thing. I agree with crazy, and all the concern about hurting feelings or offending someone is one day going to allow a terrorist to get by and a lot of people will die. It's not difficult to look on the internet and pull up photos of the perps that executed 9-11, or photos of captured or killed or most wanted terrorist. You tell me. What do they look like? Are they white or black? NO! It's not racism, it's fact. I'm not saying nab everyone for questioning that appears of mid-east origin but if acting suspiciously confrontation or questioning should not be avoided by law enforcement because of concern of being sued. Unfortunately, I think that is exactly whats going on a lot of the time and it might just come back and bite us in the ____. We need to let law enforcement do their job without fear of being beat down with the old racial profiling crap.

dbsoundguy · October 11, 2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

I personally would have screamed TANGO TANGO TANGO and then done a few tactical rolls down the lingerie isle, but thats me, I wear pink thongs so my actions are generally suspect

HA ..NOW THAT IS FUNNY

Double Naught Spy · October 11, 2007, 10:17 PM

Quote:

But guys... this felt just like either:
1) CAIR screwing around looking for a "racial profiling" lawsuit to latch onto, or
2) a dry run of an attack with a "martyr" and his handler.

How do you know what either of those feel like? Have you ever been in such a situation before? The negative body language is a tough tell to discern when dealing with folks from other cultures. The guy with the pack may have been upset about something, possibly something his buddy did.

With that said, reporting suspicious people is a prudent thing to do, but ask yourself, would you have done the same thing if the guys were white?

Was your concern about the overly large backpack that it might be an explosive device? You seemed to really note the backpack and noted that you got really far away by going to the back of the store. Then apparently your curiosity got the best of you and you moved back into proximity of the men, close enough for a cell phone picture.

If you were concerned that it might be an explosive device being carried by suspicious people, then you under reacted. You should have removed yourself from the situation as quickly as possible. I don't mean moving to the back of the store, but getting out of and away from the store.

Remember, the best defense is to not be there (where the danger is).

**Bud Helms** · October 11, 2007, 11:52 PM

So, I'm reading his wondering if it's firearms related. 'Doesn't take long for me to realize, ... no, it's not.

General Discussion Forum: A place for general discussion and Member hob-nobbing. Posts must be Firearms related.

Legal & Political Forum: Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues.

Moving to L&P. Please keep it civil.

Fremmer · October 11, 2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

very negative body language. Arms crossed, eyes moving all over

That's my standard body language at Wally-World. By the time I get in there, I'm already pissed about having to park 100 yards away from the store doors (and I know I'll forget where I've parked); then, I discover that I have no idea where the item I need is located in the store, so that'll take 2 or 3 hundred more yards of walking; then I notice how long the check out lines are......

The Tourist · October 12, 2007, 12:02 AM

I agree, trust your instinct.

If the guys are innocent, what did a few moments of self reflection cost you? In the end it was just a case of being in condition yellow, which serves us all.

If guilty, you might have averted a crime.

Justme · October 12, 2007, 01:11 AM

If anything I would suspect shoplifting, but then I never go to Walmart so don't know how people act there. Since I am not part of the Walmart culture I would not be able to notice out of place behavior. From what I can tell from watching Jerry Springer reruns there isn't all that much that wouldn't be considered normal in that culture. And I'm not being biased, just grouping Jerry Springer guests and Walmart shoppers in the same subset due to historical data.

October 11, 2007, 03:05 PM	#1
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Did I over-react or under-react? I was at Walmart yesterday. I walked into the store, and it's one of those giant walmarts with a grocery store too. Two middle eastern guys are standing in the lobby, walking slowly, between the registers and the produce area. Both are dressed pretty well in slacks and button-up shirts, and one has a large backpack on, maybe 2500 cubic inches. The one with the backpack has very negative body language. Arms crossed, eyes moving all over. I immediately got really far away from them and went to the back of the store. I thought it over a bit, and wasn't sure if I should inform a store employee, call the police, or just leave it be. I drift around back to the front of the store, but way on the other side from where the middle eastern guys were (I made a big U around the back basically) and they were walking slowly, taking notice of everything around them, same negative body language. I got away from them again. I picked up my purchases and noticed that these guys had split up now, and the guy with the pack was in the middle of the store in the clothing department. I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the girls' clothing department. I got in line at a register, and I saw the guy with the backpack leave the store without any purchases. He came back in again with his other buddy (who didn't make any purchases either, evidently) and they went into the produce area again. I took a picture of backpack-man with my cell phone and looked for a manager at the store. I didn't find a manager, but I did tell the nearest non-Opie-ish employee I could find and pointed the guys out. I left right after that. But guys... this felt just like either: 1) CAIR screwing around looking for a "racial profiling" lawsuit to latch onto, or 2) a dry run of an attack with a "martyr" and his handler. What's the appropriate response?

October 11, 2007, 03:14 PM	#3
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,733	Contact Homeland Security and send them the photo. Let them track it down. You hear all the time about "heightenned security" and "reporting suspicious behaviour." That is what you saw. If it was CAIR trolling it is better that the authotities know it. If it was real you really want the authotiies to know it. __________________ "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

October 11, 2007, 03:42 PM	#7
dwatts47 Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2007 Location: arkansas Posts: 995	I don't know How i'd have reacted to that. __________________ *I see no reason why man should not be as cruel as mother nature.*

October 11, 2007, 03:47 PM	#9
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	I wonder what their reaction would be if someone ran up to them screaming 'allah akbar!' and moving as if to detonate a bomb vest. Would they stand there serenely or try to get out of the way? Or better yet, approach from behind, grab one of their arms and say "I'm Jack Bauer, I need you to answer some questions." __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

October 11, 2007, 07:03 PM	#14
dbsoundguy Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 170	Did I over-react or under-react? You did great, more people should be aware of thier surrondings __________________ www.taurusarmed.net www.rugerforum.net Devin

October 11, 2007, 03:13 PM	#2
Nekron Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 1999 Location: Kansas Posts: 139	Sounds a lot like option #2 to me, but I wasn't there.

October 11, 2007, 03:30 PM	#4
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	Maybe they were shoplifting and putting the goods in the backpack? That could explain the nervous behavior.

October 11, 2007, 03:39 PM	#5
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	My general set of instructions... 1) Trust your instincts. 2) Move to a safe(er) location and observe as best you can 3) Get you and yours the heck out 4) Report what you've seen with as much detail as possible. Let the paid people decide what they are going to do with the information. ---------------------- Sounds like you did fine.

October 11, 2007, 03:40 PM	#6
CrazyIvan007 Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2007 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 618	Well, considering you are in Arizona, and I have heard some stories about cities in Arizona being US Al Qaeda training grounds...I would say your response was appropriate if not a bit less than it should have been. I woulda tried to scope them out from the parking lot and wait for them to return to their car, get the license plate number then go home and prepare my pictures and a written outline/essay of the incident to be reported to my local FBI office. Luckily, suicide bombings are done with individuals isolating themselves in the midst of their assumed enemies. You wouldn't have 2 or 3 guys around with only one of them about to go off. No use wasting 3 guys on one bomb. If they all had backpacks, that may be worrysome. If only one guy was there, or, if you saw the guy go into the bathroom and come out without the backpack, I would run like hell. Not saying it wouldn't happen if there is more than one together, but it is less likely. But, my point is, if they were truely doing what I think they were doing in light of your story, they were just scoping out a target or training for doing something like that. Send this story and the photo to your local conservative radio talk show. Send them, personally, to a detective at your local police department and send it to the local FBI office. In-person delivery would be the best option. Keep a heightened sense of environment and see if you notice anything like this again. Don't become a racist, by any means...but some situations are certinly reasonable to have concern. Not something to play with. EDIT: The other day I saw 2 middle easterners circling the parking lot to our office building in a new rental VW Passat. They were scoping the building as they went by with each pass. They were dressed in casual dress, i.e. button up shirt, slacks. They were between 18 and 30. They circled the parking lot about 4 times. I then went to leave and got behind them on my way out, as though it was just the way it was going. I wrote down the license plate and later gave it to the building security and owner. I don't think it was terroristic activity, but a few months ago, our office was broken into. You never know what you might be preventing when you are being observant.

October 11, 2007, 03:44 PM	#8
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	I sent a tip to the FBI via their website, and offered them the cell phone pic if they want it.

October 11, 2007, 03:58 PM	#10
CrazyIvan007 Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2007 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 618	Do you remember the 29-year-old man who used the name Hani Hanjour as the hijacker who crashed the plane into the Pentagon? He attended CRM Airline Training Centre in Scottsdale, Arizona. I doubt he is/was the only extremist in Scottsdale. Evil likes to travel in small packs.

October 11, 2007, 04:48 PM	#13
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	Probably one of those things that everyone will igore till something happens, then we will lose a few people, as a backpack attack is not going to take out alot of people in a Walmart, as they are not bunched together like in a movie theatre or something. And then anyone fitting the profile with a backpack or duffle bag or something is gonna be intercepted. Does not sound like the biggest "bang" for their dollar if you ask me. Maybe just foreigners acting weird, or awkward, that is known to happen!

October 11, 2007, 07:10 PM	#15
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	You did good. I love blowing in suspicious characters (especially DUIers who run me off the road or real ugly hookers on my corner) I personally would have screamed TANGO TANGO TANGO and then done a few tactical rolls down the lingerie isle, but thats me, I wear pink thongs so my actions are generally suspect. WildwherearemyflashbangsAlaska TM

October 11, 2007, 07:13 PM	#16
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	How would you have reacted if the guys were white, or black? If any different, then you overreacted. If you would have done the same thing, then no sweat.

October 11, 2007, 08:37 PM	#18
john1911 Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2006 Location: The relatively sane part of IL Posts: 383	Trust your gut instinct. __________________ Almost any problem can be solved by a liberal dose of .45 230 gr JHPs.

October 11, 2007, 09:04 PM	#19
rgates Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2006 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 473	Reacted differently if the guys were white or black? I would have. I might have thought they were shoplifting but from the above description I would have wondered the same thing. I agree with crazy, and all the concern about hurting feelings or offending someone is one day going to allow a terrorist to get by and a lot of people will die. It's not difficult to look on the internet and pull up photos of the perps that executed 9-11, or photos of captured or killed or most wanted terrorist. You tell me. What do they look like? Are they white or black? NO! It's not racism, it's fact. I'm not saying nab everyone for questioning that appears of mid-east origin but if acting suspiciously confrontation or questioning should not be avoided by law enforcement because of concern of being sued. Unfortunately, I think that is exactly whats going on a lot of the time and it might just come back and bite us in the ____. We need to let law enforcement do their job without fear of being beat down with the old racial profiling crap.

October 11, 2007, 11:52 PM	#22
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	So, I'm reading his wondering if it's firearms related. 'Doesn't take long for me to realize, ... no, it's not. General Discussion Forum: A place for general discussion and Member hob-nobbing. Posts must be Firearms related. Legal & Political Forum: Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues. Moving to L&P. Please keep it civil.

October 12, 2007, 12:02 AM	#24
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	I agree, trust your instinct. If the guys are innocent, what did a few moments of self reflection cost you? In the end it was just a case of being in condition yellow, which serves us all. If guilty, you might have averted a crime.

October 12, 2007, 01:11 AM	#25
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	If anything I would suspect shoplifting, but then I never go to Walmart so don't know how people act there. Since I am not part of the Walmart culture I would not be able to notice out of place behavior. From what I can tell from watching Jerry Springer reruns there isn't all that much that wouldn't be considered normal in that culture. And I'm not being biased, just grouping Jerry Springer guests and Walmart shoppers in the same subset due to historical data.