Sig sauer m11 question

[BRJACKET]

I was in my LGS and saw a sig sauer m11 in 9mm. It's close in size to a p229. I had never seen or heard of this gun. It was really nice to hold. It is a new gun. Does anyone have experience with it? How does it compare (other than being expensive). The one I saw has night sights and SRT. There is no rail.

[vyse.04]

It's another one of those military issue Sigs (like Sig MK25).

[Tom Servo]

It's an upgraded P228. Consider it a non-railed P229 with full-height slide serrations.

[TunnelRat]

It's another one of those military issue Sigs (like Sig MK25).

Are they actually military issue? Or is it more of the SIG marketing machine trying to find another way to convince people to pay more?

[BarryLee]

Are they actually military issue?

Forgive me if I’m stating well-known information, but SIG does provide a similar handgun to the military. It is the P228 and the military does designate it M11. Now, whether the civilian model is similar or as you say just marketing I suspect a little of both.

As to the OP if you like the gun I say grab it.

[MLeake]

Was it used? I thought the P228 was discontinued shortly after the introduction of the P229.

The M11 was simply the military version of the P228, as others have noted. AFAIK, it was primarily issued to some aviators, and to Army CID.

[BarryLee]

Not sure of all the details, but it appears SIG is currently offering it.

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProdu...ls/m11-a1.aspx

[LockedBreech]

The M11 bit is mostly marketing, it's not that similar to the military P228/M11, but I think it's a wonderful gun for what it is. Basically a 229 updated with some nice features (night sights and most especially the SRT). If you don't want a rail, I think it's probably the ideal 228/229 pattern gun in current-production.

I'm a fan, despite the bit of Exeter Sig marketing dust sprinkled on it.

[thedudeabides]

The big reason the P229 was made because the P228 frames couldn't handle the high pressures of 357 SIG. A P228 9mm isn't all that different from a P229, despite the fancy marketing.

[BRJACKET]

From what I could tell at the time and from the information provided here it sounds like it is kind of a hybrid between the 228 and 229. The 228 has 13 round magazines. The m11 has 3 - 15 round magazines. It sounds to be similar to a SRT 229 with no rail. It is marked as an Exeter (is that right) model. I have heard a few mixed comments about that. I don't have any desire to put a laser or light on it so I like the no- rail part. It is a good looking gun but there is no way to test fire it. I have no experience with Sigs . I do have an HK USPc in 9 mm which is similar in size. I don't know how they compare in quality.

[JHansenAK47]

The M11 bit is mostly marketing, it's not that similar to the military P228/M11, but I think it's a wonderful gun for what it is. Basically a 229 updated with some nice features (night sights and most especially the SRT). If you don't want a rail, I think it's probably the ideal 228/229 pattern gun in current-production.

I'm a fan, despite the bit of Exeter Sig marketing dust sprinkled on it.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The M11 is basically a P228 while the M11-A1 is SIG marketing of a P229 variant done up to look like the M11.

The big reason the P229 was made because the P228 frames couldn't handle the high pressures of 357 SIG.

It was actually the sheet metal slides not being able to handle the 40 S&W cartridge.

[Pilot]

it was primarily issued to some aviators,

The M11 is standard issue to Naval Aviators.

[MLeake]

Pilot... maybe so, in some cases; I was issued an M9 when I was issued a pistol at all. We qual'ed on the M11, but I was not issued one. (2002-2003 timeframe)

[TunnelRat]

The 228 has 13 round magazines.

Can pick up 15 rd MecGars that will work easy.

Anywho, I do think ithe M11 is neat looking.

My issue with a lot of the newer SIG items is the flood of good, used SIGs available out there. A year ago I picked up a gently used German police P228 for $560 or so. Hard for me to justify getting a M11.

[BRJACKET]

I like that the M11 has a SRT and I like the DA/SA. Can you get the P228 (used) pistols with this?

[CUBAN REDNECK]

What was the dealer price on the M11?

[WVsig]

This gun is nothing but Sig marketing hype. No govt agency uses this configuration. The submitted it as a replacement for the M11 which is the US military contract designation for the P228 but no one has accepted it today IIRC. They need to get people out of the existing P228/M11 contract because of the cost to make them to the old spec is too high. They cannot make them inside the US because the tooling to make the older frame and the older stamped/folder carbon steel slide are nearing end of life and are in Germany, where IMHO all good Sigs should be made... LOL.

Sig created these guns for consideration. They took a non-railed P229 frame put a MIL-STD UID label of the standard-issue M11 and called it a M11-A1. They are now being sold to the public because they cannot sell them to the military because they have no takers for this new configuration. This is a frankengun IMHO. It has parts from all over the Sig line up. It has the SRT trigger which the P228/M11 never had, a milled stainless steel slide with full height slide serrations, phosphate parts so you can swim with your Sig and used the Mecgar 15 round P229 magazine to bump its capacity. You can covert a existing P228 or P229 into this gun at a much lower cost IMHO.

There is nothing new or special about this gun except for what Sig tells/sells you. I am a traditionalist when it comes to Sigs. If I wanted a P228 with a top heavy milled stainless steel slide I would buy a P229. They existed for years without a rail and can be had for much less than these instant collectibles/ fake military designation pistols.

If you love the configuration go for it just don't over pay. You can get a LNIB P229 and convert it to an SRT trigger and use Mecgars for a lot less than this thing is selling. Personally I will stick with my plain old P228.

[BRJACKET]

The price at my LGS is $1,100.00. They can be found on line for about $900.00. It appears that a P228 can be purchased on line for around $600.00 (give or take). I don't know how much it will cost to revise the trigger to SRT. I like the 9mm with no rail or I would look at the P229. WVsig recommends getting and converting the P228 to a SRT. I like this idea but I am curious how much cheaper that is than just getting a new M11A1. It sounds like it would be enough cheaper to be worth it. The night sights are also standard on the M11 but I am not sure I would put night sights on a P228.

Is the pull weight the same? The M11A1 in SA/DA is 10lbs on DA and 4.5 lbs on SA.

[WVsig]

The Kit which has everything you need to swap out the trigger is $50. If you can detail strip your pistol you can install this kit. Trigger pull weight will be the same the reset will be shorter not 1911 or Glock short but shorter. I have night sights on both of my P228s. They came that way from the factory.

http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-saue...-and-p229.html

[BRJACKET]

Thanks. That is exactly what I was looking for!

[wgsigs]

... and used the Mecgar 15 round P229 magazine to bump its capacity. You can covert a existing P228 or P229 into this gun at a much lower cost IMHO.

Actually this is technically not true. The M11-A1 is based on the .40/.357 P229 frame that uses a wider mag. The A1 gets its 15 rd capacity by using a wider P229-1 mag instead of the lower profile follower and spring in the previous 15rd Mec-Gar mag for the P228/P229, even though I believe Mec-Gar also makes the M11-A1 mag. Also, there is the problem of locating a stainless steel slide with full height serrations that will fit the P228 and older 9mm P229 frame.

However, I am not saying the M11-A1 is better, just slightly different and not easily replicable using an older P228/P229 frame, assuming someone really wanted to do it. The M11-A1 is probably as close as you can get these days if you want a new P228, short of finding someone's safe queen on GunBroker.

[WVsig]

Actually this is technically not true. The M11-A1 is based on the .40/.357 P229 frame that uses a wider mag. The A1 gets its 15 rd capacity by using a wider P229-1 mag instead of the lower profile follower and spring in the previous 15rd Mec-Gar mag for the P228/P229, even though I believe Mec-Gar also makes the M11-A1 mag. Also, there is the problem of locating a stainless steel slide with full height serrations that will fit the P228 and older 9mm P229 frame.

However, I am not saying the M11-A1 is better, just slightly different and not easily replicable using an older P228/P229 frame, assuming someone really wanted to do it. The M11-A1 is probably as close as you can get these days if you want a new P228, short of finding someone's safe queen on GunBroker.

Yes you are 100% spot on the M11-A1 is basically a P229 without the rail and full height slide serrations. You are also correct in terms of the mag but the 2 Mecgar designs are functionally identical. People have been using 15 round Mecgar mags in the P228 & P229 with the lower profile follower with outstanding results for as long as I can remember.

As far as the width of the frame & stainless steel slide why would anyone want one on a P228. The beauty of the P228 is its width feel in the hand and its balance. Many people like myself who cut their teeth on a P228 find the P229 top heavy and thicker in the hand. For some this might be an advantage but for those who truly want a P228 the stainless steel slide and P229 frame make no sense. No you will not have full height serrations but I do not consider that a deal breaker.

Again if you like the configuration of this frankenpistol are are willing to dish out the $900+ I say go for it but please remember you are not buying a P228 or a M11 or even a M1-A1 because they do not exist. What you are buying is a P229 with no rail full height serrations, night sights, SRT trigger and a lot of made up marketing hype.

My point is that you can take a P228 keep all the characteristic that make it a great pistol add a SRT trigger for $50, Mecgar mags at $25 a pop and come out way ahead of the $900 price tag Sig is charging. The same can be said about the older non railed P229 except you loose the full height slide serrations.

Anyway you slice it the M11-A1 designation and package is a marketing ploy which deceives those who do no know any better into believing that they are buying a elite mil-spec pistol which they are not. I personally see no appeal in it. YMMV

[WVsig]

There is some miss information in this thread about the P229 and its history and how it differs from the P228. The P228 was a mini chopped down P226. The original prototypes where P226s which were literally cut fitted with shorter recoil springs guide rods & barrels. They were of course tweaked from there. They all had alum frames, carbon steel folded/stamped slide, breach blocks etc... They were and are still considered classic P series Sigs.

The P229 was developed as a 40 S&W and .357 Sig gun. It was not created from the P228. It again like the P228 is a chopped down version of the P226. The p226 is the father of both the P228 and P229. When starting to develop the P229 they need to design a different frame because the size of these two cartridges are larger than the 9mm. They could not fit the desired number of rounds into the shortened P226 or P228 frame. Strength was not the issue when it came to the frame. Size and capacity was.

They also developed the milled stainless steel slide which could be produced here in the US. Strength was a major factor but the carbon steel slide could have worked. You could have altered the recoil system, mainly the spring weight, and it would have held up just fine. One of the main reasons for going with the milled stainless slide was that the tooling and equipment used to make the older folded/stamped stainless steel slides are in German they are old and they are less efficient then a milled slide. They were going to have to be replaced or taken out of service. The amount of serviceable life left in that equipment has always lead to the rumors that the P228 was gone forever. The carbon steel slide of the P228 has died many deaths... LOL

Sig knowing that the cost of replacing the older less efficient equipment was hanging over their head so they choose to go with the more efficient milled stainless steel side with the P229. It worked and with faster more precise CNC machines Sig soon started to use milled stainless steel slides across their entire pistol line. The P229 was the first then came the P239, P226, and P220 etc... Economy of scale and the cost savings from CNC machining was really the main factor for these changes. It also allowed them to introduce the 40 S&W & .357 Sig into the P226 lineup.

So strength and economic factors lead to the birth of the stainless steel slide in the Sig line because they needed to bring a 40 S&W & .357 Sig pistol to market. The difference in the frame was also necessitated by the cartridges it was originally designed for. The P229 in 9mm was introduced later as a way to reduce costs due to economy of scale and to have a US made version of the P228 which was due to be phased out of production which seems to finally have happened since Sig is trying to sell us a P228 with a milled stainless slide....

[TunnelRat]

Holy details Batman!

Kidding aside, I do agree that the P228, at least for me, balances much better in hand than a P229. That's not to say I hate the P229, I had a few of them, and they're nice guns too. But they're not as nice to me as the P228. I regret stupidly selling mine, but at least my buddy has gotten good use of it and I know it went to a good home .

[wgsigs]

WVsig, thanks for the P229 history. I just wanted to clarify a couple of points you talked around but never explicitly stated.

The .40/.357 P229 frame has the same external dimensions as the P228, but the magazine well is wider to accommodate the .40/.357 mag that is wider at the bottom and tapers in at the top 1/3 to the width of the P228 mag.

Also, the first 9mm P229s were just P228 frames with a stainless steel slide, which is why the P228 mags fit the original 9mm P229. Within the last couple of years, Sig standardized the 9mm P229 to the .40/.357 frame, which is why the 9mm P229-1 mag came out, which has the wider profile of the .40/.357 mags.