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May 26, 2009, 12:18 AM | #101 | |
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What unconstitutional tactic did I advocate? You might not like a particular 'tactic" that does not make it unconstitutional. Only the SCOTUS can judge something unconstitutional with finality. Thanks Marbury. Last edited by Wagonman; May 26, 2009 at 12:24 AM. |
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May 26, 2009, 12:23 AM | #102 | ||
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It would also appear that in spite of quite a bit of discussion about "innocent until proven guilty" in this thread that you've managed to somehow convict the El Monte officer without a trial or even any evidence being gathered other than watching a few seconds of video. Aren't you climbing all over LEO's who you think have done this? Just seems a bit hypocritical to me. It appears that you equate more curriculum on this topic with an absence of violations of civil rights. I think that's just silly. I’m not guessing, I'm stating facts. Would that you'd do the same instead of trying to pass off your opinion as fact. Do you have any evidence (sounds familiar does it not?) that there are more incidents occurring these days than did in the past. Or are you suffering from cumulative information overload? Is it possible that just as many, if not more of these incidents occurred in days of old but that they didn't make the news the way they do today? I think it's not only possible, but that it's probable. |
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May 26, 2009, 12:24 AM | #103 | ||||
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Earlier I wrote,
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SWAT teams are relatively new on the police scene, having been created to handle special circumstances. Among reasons for their existence were changes that were occurring in society that were beyond the capability of the street police officer. Among them were threatened guerilla tactics (including sniper activity) adopted by several militant groups and occurrences like the Watts Riots. Police are merely responsive to what society does. Like SWAT, no–knock warrants came about as a result of changes in society. Mostly the disposable nature of narcotics. Such entries were authorized by judges to prevent the destruction of such evidence. No militarization there either. Quote:
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May 26, 2009, 12:25 AM | #104 | |||||||
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May 26, 2009, 02:29 AM | #105 |
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SWAT is not new. Using SWAT to serve failure to pay tickets is
Not ignoring you or running from the discussion. I am gathering facts and figures to put up. From my initial findings, I am sure you won't like it and fnd some way to explain that it's crucial to your job and that if folks are not guilty they have nothing to hide And FWIW, SWAT is a very good example of mission creep. Using SWAT just to justify a budget is common in many departments. You don't see the problem because you have been trained to do your job a certain way. IMO the wrong way. To solve most of the problems I see wood be to do away with color of law protections and police unions. For instance. If a raid happens on the wrong address and results in a death, it's murder plain and simple. Some one dropped the ball and did not do their job and confirm the correct address. Anything after that mistake should not be covered by color of law protections. Period. And this crap of "don't like it, change it". That's what some of us are trying to do. And guess who wants to oppose us, oppose change in the civil rights area? Cops that's who. The sw cops who begged us for help getting nation wide carry for them with the promise they would help us get nationwide carry. And we all know how that ended up. So. I will have some stats. Alarming as they may be. Just try not put your coptalk hat on. Those guys over there are scary. Now. Off to care for my father. Will get those stats up as soon as I can.
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May 26, 2009, 08:24 AM | #106 |
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Those who watch TV news, see more and more "gun crimes." Newspapers carry more and more crime stories.
We "hear" about more assaults with long guns, most commonly being referred to as "assault weapons." Therefore, "common wisdom" would conclude that violent crimes are on the upswing. Yet, at the end of the day, the actual reports are collated and we find that crimes, of all kinds, are on the downward slide. We also should note that usage of so-called assault weapons has remained at between 1% and 2% of all firearms related crimes. "Common wisdom," isn't! The same thing is happening with respect to police brutality stories. More and more are being reported, yet statistically, these incidents have either remained stable or are dropping... Depends upon whose stats we are reading. They are most certainly not on the rise. Perception is the appearance of something happening that may not be the actual reality of the thing perceived. We have gotten off topic. End of Chase syndrome is real. but we are not discussing this aspect of police work now, are we? What happens with almost any subject dealing with the police, is a general slide into general police bashing. I would ask you all to go back and re-read this thread, with the specific intent of watching the slide. It's there, and I can point to (if I have to) where it started. I'm off to work now. If this thread hasn't gotten back on track when I get home, it will be closed. |
May 26, 2009, 08:32 AM | #107 | |
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That's the ticket, have Cops do thier jobs taking their career in thier own hands without any kind of protection. I guarantee job-preservation will become the coin of the realm. They tried that in Cincy a few years ago and the Police made their point handily. I find it more than a little ironic that you are railing against SWAT teams on a forum maintained by SWAT magazine. |
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May 26, 2009, 08:56 AM | #108 | |
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May 26, 2009, 09:12 AM | #109 |
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EOCS does happen, it shouldn't, we are professsionals and should act that way.
However, the rub as I see it is the level of punishment different people want to mete out on said LEO. The "Cops are the problem" crowd wants said officer to be drawn quartered, jailed for the rest of his Civil Rights abusing career, then a civil suit judgement to really punish this bad guy who in the heat of attempting to arrest under suspicious circumstances a honor student on his way to bible study. The reasonable punishment crowd realizes that in the heat of the moment excrement happens and punishment should fit the crime. first offense some UOF retraining and maybe a couple of days on the bench. subsequent infractions should have more severe punishment. |
May 26, 2009, 09:23 AM | #110 | |
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Just to be clear, physical arrests for traffic are rare, they usually happen to people who fail the hello test. |
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May 26, 2009, 09:41 AM | #111 |
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So lemme get clarification...
Wagonman pulls over the ol'hogdogs pickup truck for the heinous crime of "No Tag Light". I provide required ID and paperwork as asked. While in his patrolcar wagonman decides that my unshaven face and raggedy clothing makes look "suspicious" and comes up to ask to search my truck, I reply I am rather in a hurry to get to the gun range and nothing in my truck for you to worry about... I will then be arrested for failing a test I did not know I had to take (I thought I had the right to be friendly to whom I choose) on the charge of my broken tag light, My truck then fully searched while I locate a bondsman? That is shady police work at it's finest! Brent |
May 26, 2009, 09:49 AM | #112 | |
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2. Pardon my ignorance, but what's the 'hello test', and since you say it's a reason to be arrested, is there a legal basis for it, or is it entirely discretionary? Thanks for your answers. |
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May 26, 2009, 10:30 AM | #113 |
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Maestro, I am pretty sure their "hello test" is not published material as we would expect. But every citizen has a "Hello Test" to some degree or other... Part of my test involves LEO's who ask to search my ride when I have never been seen coming or going from known locations of illicit activity. No smell of weed, no bed full of tools possibly going to the pawn shop to support a crack habit stolen from homes... Just a tow strap, spare tire, gas can and some trash...
One of the funniest search situations I was involved in occurred when a deputy pulled me over for no claimed reason... just checkin' me out. It was my last day in Daytona Beach as I was moving out that night. I had to pick up my truck from the transmission shop so I had removed all items of value to prevent theft. I had a very dear friend with me so I could have more time to have our last personal conversation. He was off duty Juvenile probation officer and tasked with wearing a county deputy badge on his belt. He was always very neatly dressed and groomed. The cop asks for my papers and I comply, He then asks to search, I asked what for but since I wasn't wanting to involve my buddy in making a scene denying the consent to search I allowed. This old truck takes only seconds to search as it has no headliner or floor mats, no ashtray nor radio... just shine a light in the holes... He then gets to the seat and he cannot figure out how to tip the back forward... I explained that it didn't flip. He tells me has never seen one that didn't, I informed him that you can learn something new each day. I then explained that the front seat in a crew cab or suburban did not flip, my seat musta come from one of them... Absolutely nothin' to be found and after 30 minutes I could have used loading my truck for the move, I was finally on my way... Brent |
May 26, 2009, 10:53 AM | #114 | ||||
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1, yes of course. 2, The hello test is indeed entirely discretionary. However, it is not a reason to be arrested on it's own, just something else to to base RS on. The hello test is simply "you act like "one" you will be treated like "one" Passing the hello test is very simple hence the name You say hello like a civilized person and you pass. A good example of the hello test is in the infamous and decidely obscene Chris Rock "how not to run afoul of the police" video. You can youtube it, I am hesitant to link because it is a family forum. Quote:
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Last edited by Wagonman; May 26, 2009 at 11:04 AM. |
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May 26, 2009, 11:01 AM | #115 |
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Wagonman, you're doing a fine job defending yourself and other LEOS here and I'm kind of late on the particular point about being a judge.
I'm retired LE and I can remember the day a judge dismissed about half the charges I had written a guy up on, (mainly for failing the attitude test). They were all honest charges. Anyway, after the court session the judge took me aside and said, "Don't take it personally, you do my job every day. You dismiss charges on the street sometimes for your reasons and I dismiss some for my reasons." I came away with different point of view. Other than an arrest on a warrant (which I knew nothing about the particulars) I never arrested an innocent man. My career spanned 1980-2000 with a sheriff department in East Texas. As I look back with this thread in mind I can see the gradual shifting toward what the OP calls militant LE training. Back in the day, an assault on a peace officer was handled quite differently than today. There was a price to pay for a BG assaulting a PO, and they knew it. We won all of those fights, no matter how many men it took. Today the public expects a LEO to take those kicks in the balls, head butts, etc when they are in cuffs or not and simply gently subdue the actor ad file the appropriate charges. Somehow those charges always seem to get plea bargained away. It's disheartening to know that he went to prison for 5 years for burglary but walked on assaulting you. This same guy will expect the Officer Friendly treatment when he gets out. It seems that many here want a completely emotionless LEO when dealing with BGs and a smiling compassionate, empathetic, LEO when dealing with them. They want you to find the BG that broke in and stole your Xbox but don't want you stopping anybody in a ragged, beat up old car at 3:00AM in your neighborhood unless he commits a traffic or equipment offense. Godspeed, wagonman, retirement is good. I'd better go now. |
May 26, 2009, 11:12 AM | #116 | |||
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How about this... "The reason I do not consent to the search of my vehicle is I am not a criminal involved in any criminal activity and your time would be better spent pulling over cars and suvs typically driven by the thug life crowd and searching them." If I am seen leaving an area of criminal activity I can expect a stop but not violating any traffic laws 'tween my house and the properties I do hog removal on isn't the time to stop and ask to search my truck! My appearance isn't thug, goth, punk, or radical in any way... just a typical redneck guy who chooses to only shave ever so often to save money as razor refills are outrageous and my attire is only to keep me warm and cover my privates. I do not see that as reason to stop my old truck and ask me to search it... Brent Last edited by hogdogs; May 26, 2009 at 11:19 AM. |
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May 26, 2009, 11:16 AM | #117 |
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In my 24 years of driving cars and trucks or riding motorcycles I have been approached for permission to search in excess of 15 times... possibly closer to 20 or more.
In a few of cases I admit I intentionally was less than friendly. I haven't been asked to consent to search since leaving the peninsula of florida 3+ years ago... Coincidence? I think not... I have changed none of my looks or MO of day to day routine. Brent |
May 26, 2009, 11:23 AM | #118 |
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This has been a very enlightening thread. Wagonman, thank you for your candor in your responses, seriously. It is better to know what the officers I may encounter could be thinking.
I still see no good reason for the militarization of the law enforcement agencies in this country. Leadership comes from above, and i can only assume that this militarization trend will be ended when the right people are elected to the offices that can influence that trend. In the mean time, i will continue to look at LEO's as unfortunate plauge victims & avoid them as such. On the original part of the topic of the syndrome associated with police pursuits, maybe it would work out better for the police & for those pursued if all registered vehicles were equipped with a law enforcement operable "kill switch" to cut power in the pursued vehicle as safely as possible when the vehicle is being pursued by an authorized police vehicle. Obviously, this would fall prey to the same types of failures as emissions controls have (removal with annual reinstallation for official inspection & such). I'm not sure i'd want to participate in such a system, but that would make for safer pursuits and would eliminate any type of "syndrome" as an excuse for police brutality. The irony of a thread critical of the militarization of police forces (partially) on a forum with a "SWAT" section is not lost on me. |
May 26, 2009, 11:52 AM | #119 | |
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Some of the crap you guys are getting is because of what appears to be a double standard where police think street justice is Ok for them when they are attacked, but not OK for Joe citizen.
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May 26, 2009, 12:15 PM | #120 |
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hog dogs
I agree I also could not be law enforcement as I believe in 3 things there is right, wrong, and then there is the law, and they are not always the same.
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May 26, 2009, 12:39 PM | #121 | |||
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I will leave this topic on the same note I started. When a crime is committed it should carry the same consequences for a LEO as it does for anyone else. I think this little point-counterpoint illustrates a perfect example of the real problem; The Public: Quote:
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I would submit that you do have protection, and that would be the same law that protects us all. If every officer did have to take his career in his own hands you would not see the type of violence that was exacted in the OP, and if you did, it would be self-correcting thru due process. Same crime/Same punishment whether dirtbag or deputy.
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May 26, 2009, 12:44 PM | #122 | ||||||||||||
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The fact is that a police officer will perform hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of stops and have various kinds of contacts in the course of his career. One reason that these incidents make headlines is because they're so rare. There are about one million police officers of various levels in the US. If we assume 5,000 "bad deeds" (and I think that's way more than actually occur) that's still only 0.5%. Can you name an industry with that low an error (or accident) rate or such a low rate of good guys gone bad? I don't think so. If you take a look at prison populations you'll find far more judges, lawyers, doctors, and plumbers there than police officers. Quote:
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May 26, 2009, 12:46 PM | #123 | ||||||||
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Since this has wandered so far from the original topic I'll try and steer it back. I'll make some comments to your original post that I passed by in my first post here.
I think that part of the problem is that you think you know quite a few things when the fact is that you've made many assumptions and jumped to many conclusions. Quote:
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I've not made any assumptions, I've just pointed out a few possibilities. Quote:
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I will say that I doubt that if they saw it, that they "scratched their head and said, um wait a minute." I'm sure that if they saw it they said, "Oh [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]. I hope this doesn’t get out!' I find THAT alarming. Quote:
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May 26, 2009, 12:50 PM | #124 | |
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A police officer knows that several rapes where the suspect was armed with a handgun have occurred in his district so he's on the lookout for the suspect. These rapes have occurred at about the same time of day that the officer is working now. This suspect drives a truck and has removed his license plate light so make it more difficult to identify him. He has been described by his victims as being unshaven and wearing raggedy clothing. He's known to keep the victim's panties as "souvenirs." Ol' hogdog is unshaven and wearing raggedy clothes. He's in the area at the time of day that the crimes have been committed. He's driving a truck that fits the description given by the victims. Hmm says the officer, this is a possible. Knowing that he can't arrest for just the the equipment violation he follows Ol' Hogdog for a few blocks and then he drives through a red "no right turn" arrow. He stops Ol' hogdog. Ol' hogdog provides all the required paperwork. While the officer knows that he has PC to search, he asks for consent anyway. It's refused because as ol' hogdog tells him, he "is in a hurry to get to the gun range," adding to the officer's PC and to his concerns for his own safety. Rather than just use the PC to search, he arrests Ol' hogdog for the blown red arrow and searches his car because he knows that such a search, incident to the arrest, is less likely to be overturned by a judge than one based on just the PC. He locates a gun matching the rape victim's description and several pairs of worn women's underwear. Because of these discoveries, and the totality of the circumstances, he books Ol' hogdog for suspicion of rape, the victims identify him and he's convicted. That is excellent police work at it's finest! Just another view of similar situations. |
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May 26, 2009, 12:51 PM | #125 | ||
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And if the PC or RS exists then it's ALSO not a violation of your rights if the officer searches despite your refusal to consent. Quote:
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