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Old July 26, 2015, 06:58 PM   #26
jetinteriorguy
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You should check out either the Mossberg MVP series, or the Ruger Gunsite Scout series. A little different than what your talking about but might be worth considering.
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Old July 26, 2015, 07:36 PM   #27
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Most of the guys that I see out shooting their ARs, aren't using them for any degree of accuracy, don't have them set up to take advantage of the rifles potential for accuracy, and aren't shooting ammo that is very accurate. They would literally be better served with a 300 dollar SKS.

When I think of rifle shooting, I think of bolt guns and 1 MOA or better. I think of optics that make it possible to deliver that accuracy to iddy biddy targets at distance that red dot or open sights are worthless for. I think of styles and stocks that are easy to rest on bags and other ways that an AR just sucks at.

I know a few guys who have AR's that are set up for and deliver exceptional accuracy, but they are the exception not the rule; and they aren't doing it with the inexpensive ammo that most ARs are usually chowing down on.

If I were the OP, I'd get a basic and inexpensive carbine to fill my basic bangitty-bang-bang need, and then I'd get set up with a "real rifle" that I could enjoy some real "way down yonder" rifle shooting with. jd
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Old July 26, 2015, 07:44 PM   #28
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"This rifle would be used as a defensive rifle that can be expected to be shot 10,000s of times and be able to reach 300 meters with irons."

I have serious doubts that you'll find a rifle capable of firing 10,000s of rounds w/o rebuilding or replacing parts. The capability to "reach 300 yards with irons" will somewhat depend on your skill and the size of the target you wish to hit @ 300 yards.
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Old July 26, 2015, 09:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdscholer
Most of the guys that I see out shooting their ARs, aren't using them for any degree of accuracy, don't have them set up to take advantage of the rifles potential for accuracy, and aren't shooting ammo that is very accurate. They would literally be better served with a 300 dollar SKS.
Describes 90% of the rifle shooters I see independent of action type. Most of them can't take advantage of the difference between a 1-MOA or a 3-MOA rifle and ammo combination.

Quote:
When I think of rifle shooting, I think of bolt guns and 1 MOA or better. I think of optics that make it possible to deliver that accuracy to iddy biddy targets at distance that red dot or open sights are worthless for. I think of styles and stocks that are easy to rest on bags and other ways that an AR just sucks at.
And I think a 5-MOA plate makes for fun offhand practice with iron sights. But it gets boring when shooting prone.

Quote:
I know a few guys who have AR's that are set up for and deliver exceptional accuracy, but they are the exception not the rule; and they aren't doing it with the inexpensive ammo that most ARs are usually chowing down on.
Inexpensive FMJ is great for when you're shooting multiple targets and doing things that don't require pinpoint precision. It would be a waste of money to use good hollow-point match ammo by the 30-round magazine as fast as you can pull a trigger.

Quote:
If I were the OP, I'd get a basic and inexpensive carbine to fill my basic bangitty-bang-bang need, and then I'd get set up with a "real rifle" that I could enjoy some real "way down yonder" rifle shooting with. jd
I look at an AR carbine as a rifle that can be used to do similar things people do with a combat pistol, from ranges most people consider a handgun useless. And inside pistol range it's far more effective and accurate. It's not intended to replace a precision rifle, but it's light, compact and easy to use.

Did I mention it's also likely to get shot enough for the user to become familiar with how to use it? They're also reliable, durable, adaptable and user friendly.
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Old July 26, 2015, 10:03 PM   #30
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I still think a carbine with a red dot, iron sights, or 1-4x scope is the way to go.

If you need to do something beyond what was described in the OP, there are always upper receivers in .300 BLK, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .458 SOCOM etc. to cover just about any need from hunting to long range precision shooting.
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Old July 26, 2015, 11:13 PM   #31
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What is and isn't "real" rifle shooting and isn't is all relative and opinion.

There are several types of rifle shooting, different competitive types.

Yes, quite a few AR owners just go out and blow through ammo... And while it's not really useful so to speak, it can be a lot of fun, and that is fine too.


The good thing about an AR, is that they can be set up for most types of rifle shooting.

One reason I like the hammer forged barrels. Most come from FN, and I have found them to be at least one MOA capable with good ammo. Yet they are tough enough to take abuse of higher fire rates.
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Old July 27, 2015, 01:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Dragline45
I would never define Colt as the best bang for your buck. Right now in the high end AR market, the best bang for your buck with their BCG deals is BCM if you buy one of their uppers.
I suppose the moniker of "best bang-for-your-buck" is mostly subjective, but I've never seen a complete BCM rifle that was anywhere near as cheap as a Colt 6920.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragline45
BCM and Daniel Defense in certain areas exceed milspec.
What areas are those, exactly? Daniel Defense uses terms like "mil-spec plus", but I've never heard a good explanation as to what parts are better than mil-spec and what exactly makes them better than mil-spec.

By the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I actually want to know: I'm currently in the market for an 11.5" 5.56 SBR and I'm torn between the Colt 6933 and the BCM CQBII Mod 1. The Colt is my first choice simply because Colt is a known entity to me; I carried a Colt in the Marine Corps infanty, a Colt was my first AR, and I've sold a huge number of them since 2012 when I started working at a gun shop. But the BCM is much more readily available, so I'll be able to start my tax stamp wait a lot sooner if I go with BCM.

Colt makes a lot more of their own parts than BCM does, and -- thanks to almost 60 years of military contracts -- they have a much longer résumé than BCM. Not to say they necessarily make better rifles than BCM, but like I said, they're a known entity to me. In short, I trust the quality of Colt more than I trust the quality of BCM.
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Old July 27, 2015, 09:31 AM   #33
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They exceed mil spec in various ways.

Daniels (and BCM has them available) use hammer forged barrels, which are stronger and more resilient/longer lasting.

I believe they choose stronger materials for the bolt as well.

The barrel is what I remember off the top of my head though.


Generally, Daniels and BCM are just better put together, more care is given to each rifle and part.

Colt does what they need to do to ensure a well functioning and durable rifle. Daniels and BCM pay attention to some small details that don't increase function so much as improve the final product... A bit more refined as it were.
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Old July 27, 2015, 09:48 AM   #34
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This is an example of why I wouldn't dive into the AR pool right away--a newbie will get awash with a multitude of technical mumbo jumbo all in the name of getting a weapon that simulates as closely as possible what a seal would use while engaging 50 targets at once in CQB (shooting from a sand pit or mud bog to boot). While no doubt useful, the likelihood of needing that level of performance and reliability in the civie world is highly unlikely. I've bought a much-disparaged DPMS sportical at wally world for $475 and that gun outshot more reliably and with greater accuracy than a bunch of AR's I've used and seen at ranges over the years, many of which were two to three times as expensive.
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Old July 27, 2015, 10:50 AM   #35
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This is true... Most don't need the high speed low drag stuff, unless they just want it.

Which is why I suggested PSA as a good alternative. Built well but at a lower price point. Tougher than most people need.

Most could just buy a cheap AR and be done with it...

But someone taking the time to join a shooting forum and asking questions, denotes a bit of desire to gain more knowledge/insight than the average Joe Blow, so a little added detail and info is probably desired.
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Old July 27, 2015, 10:59 AM   #36
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Agreed--and I'm not taking issue with AR's per sae-- I love em too and quality definitely does make a difference It's only my personal opinion and worth no more than anyone else's--but for a first-timer to the world of weapons if I had a grand or so to spend I would KISS and get affordable guns that are easy to learn with and then get into the "exotic" world of semi-auto "sporting" rifles. ; )
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Old July 27, 2015, 12:11 PM   #37
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You guys have really brought up excellent points.

This rifle would not be used as a super precision rifle. I will use Mauser bolt guns for that (FNH SPR, Ruger, etc.). Just clarification for you guys.

Again, I am really happy to see all of your opinions. They have helped quiet a bit already narrowing down my choices and giving me more detailed analysis' of the rifles I am thinking about.
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Old July 27, 2015, 01:26 PM   #38
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Most AR's are inherently more accurate than most AR owners. just sayin'...
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Old July 27, 2015, 01:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
I suppose the moniker of "best bang-for-your-buck" is mostly subjective, but I've never seen a complete BCM rifle that was anywhere near as cheap as a Colt 6920.
Me neither, but you can buy a BCM upper and assemble a better rifle for just as cheap, especially when you can get a BCM BCG and charging handle for only $70 when you buy them at the same time as the upper which is over a $200 value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
What areas are those, exactly? Daniel Defense uses terms like "mil-spec plus", but I've never heard a good explanation as to what parts are better than mil-spec and what exactly makes them better than mil-spec.
From what I understand the barrels and BCG's exceed milspec, I read a while ago a breakdown of why this is but I cant seem to find it. On top of that BCM's quality control is far greater than Colt's and maybe the best in the industry, and when their rifles, uppers or various other parts sell out they may be sold out for a while because they refuse to compromise quality just to fill orders. That to me means a whole lot.

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Old July 27, 2015, 05:12 PM   #40
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On top of that BCM's quality control is far greater than Colt's and maybe the best in the industry, and when their rifles, uppers or various other parts sell out they may be sold out for a while because they refuse to compromise quality just to fill orders. That to me means a whole lot.
Which is why I just bought one.
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Old July 27, 2015, 07:31 PM   #41
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This is an example of why I wouldn't dive into the AR pool right away--a newbie will get awash with a multitude of technical mumbo jumbo
Agreed. If the choice is going to be an AR then be prepared to do some seemingly endless reading and research. At first it can seem overwhelming but when your done you will have learned alot.
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Old July 27, 2015, 07:44 PM   #42
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Again--I love AR's--but in my years of shooting at public ranges the #1 weapon beginners have the most issues that I've seen with have been AR's--not because they're necessarily unreliable--it's often the case they get caught up in the hype, rush out and get one and don't really know what they are doing--or worse yet what could go wrong. Not saying the OP is that kind--just I've seen it over and over.
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Old July 28, 2015, 01:58 AM   #43
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Most AR's are inherently more accurate than most AR owners. just sayin'...
Heck, that's true of most guns period.

To OP's original question, I'd go with the Colt(or some AR variant).
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Old July 28, 2015, 06:42 AM   #44
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This is just my opinion but I don't think anything holds a candle to a good AR as far as a pratical, purpose driven rifle goes. They carry easily, are reliable, accurate, cheap to fire etc etc. With that said, I am not a practical, purpose driven kind of guy and buy firearms simply based on what I like and a M1a with a nice wood stock is tough to beat and that would be my choice. I have never fired the Scout but am very familiar with the Socom and Standard, they just really put a smile on my face.
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Old July 28, 2015, 10:54 AM   #45
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Again--I love AR's--but in my years of shooting at public ranges the #1 weapon beginners have the most issues that I've seen with have been AR's--not because they're necessarily unreliable--it's often the case they get caught up in the hype, rush out and get one and don't really know what they are doing--or worse yet what could go wrong. Not saying the OP is that kind--just I've seen it over and over.
Haven't witnessed this at all, though if that's what you have been witnessing it's probably because it's maybe the most common rifle in the country right now. Care to elaborate though, when you say beginners having the most issues, what issues?
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Old July 28, 2015, 02:16 PM   #46
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have personally witnessed (some more than once):

1. Loading weapon while range is cold, safety off.
2. "shortstroking" a cartridge by charging weapon inadequately with charging handle (pulling back not far enough) as opposed to locking bolt back, loading mag, then releasing bolt catch. This can also result in a jammed cartridge in a chamber. I've seen em do it with new premium AR.s.
3 Doublestacking due to various causes--"Your supposed to clean and lube these before using? I didn't know that."
4. Pressure issues due to mis-matched ammo and pressure "settings" of rifle.
5. Incorrect take-down of upper from lower in an attempt to "fix."

If someone is new to AR's and they have an experienced buddy help them through--that's great. Someone new to firearms in general and choosing an AR as first weapon--I don't think so--but then again what do I know. ; )

PS--should probably mention--along with AK's-- these will burn faster through your ammo (wallet) than any other weapon while trying to get down the basics.
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Last edited by stagpanther; July 28, 2015 at 02:24 PM.
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Old July 28, 2015, 07:43 PM   #47
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Targa (Comment #44),

I think you know where I am coming from with the m1a. I have grown up having shot firearms that were always, until two years ago, "wood and steel." They are arguably some of the most nostalgic weapons for me, classic lines, gloriously natural color scheme, etc. Wood and steel firearms feel so natural to me, the .308 is excellent, I really don't need IMHO more than 10 shots in most situations, although having more is a positive, and I like the looks of the sights.

Stagpanther,

Your lists of problems commonly seen with new ARs and their owners was eye-opening to me. I am very comfortable with mechanics, so that helps with understanding the necessity of lubing the weapon and manipulations, but I do appreciate you laying out issues that I can avoid. I will read up on the ones I was not aware of!

Thank you again guys for the excellent comments!
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Old July 28, 2015, 07:49 PM   #48
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jetinteriorguy,

I love masers, and was really looking at the Ruger gunfight scout in .308 or 5.56/.223. I ran into many people while researching online that said it was not really "Ruger m77 accurate" and filming themselves put 4-5 inch groups downrange at 100yards. Seeing that shifted me away from the Ruger Gunsite a bit, but I am still open to it. That was back when they had the .308 in only the 16" barrel though. Do you know if that was just their poor shooting, or if the gun is not as accurate? They have a Ruger Gunsite in .308 now that has a 18" barrel, which probably will help a tad with accuracy. Thank you for your input!
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Old July 29, 2015, 11:50 AM   #49
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All it takes is reading the manual, and maybe asking a few questions online... And you will be fine.

ARs are not complicated, but a little knowledge can go a long way to ensuring you have fun.
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Old July 29, 2015, 11:55 AM   #50
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That's been pretty much My experience. It takes about an hour to become comfortable with an AR15 and operate it with a degree of pproficiency. Obviously combat operations and more complicated manipulation like malfunction drills come with time, but that's true of any gun
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