November 15, 2012, 01:10 PM | #51 |
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125 gr for urban carry. 158 gr or larger for woods carry.
I wouldn't use the .357 magnum round for self-defense inside the home. Firing any round indoors magnifies the sound and the potential for hearing loss, but this is particularly true with large caliber magnum rounds. It is not even long term hearing loss that concerns me. It is during the short term, right after the blast, that you may not be able to hear anything. You may not be able to hear the voice of a loved one or the sound of; "police, put your weapon down." I want to be able to use all of my senses during a home self-defense incident. The larger caliber magnum handgun rounds have their place and purposes, but IMHO, not for inside the home. If I use a handgun for home defense, I choose 9 MM or .45 ACP. |
November 15, 2012, 01:26 PM | #52 |
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Wow, this thread is like all the thousands and thousands of words written on the subject and all the ballistic testing thats taken place never happened.
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November 15, 2012, 01:46 PM | #53 |
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^this
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November 15, 2012, 02:15 PM | #54 | |||
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November 15, 2012, 03:35 PM | #55 |
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.357 Magnum is like 9mm, in that the three most common weights, 125 grain, 158 grain and 180 grain in .357 Magnum and in 9mm 115, 124 and 147 all preform about the same in the real world. There are many ballistic formulas and there is ballistic gelatin and shooting results, on animals and humans to back that up too.
Look at the 125 grain .357 Magnum versus the 115 grain 9mm. Like Dragline45 said, do you really think ten grains and two hundred fps create some sort of magic threshold of power? No, there is nothing wrong with a .357 Magnum for defense, but a 9mm Parabellum loaded with eighteen premium hollow points can easily be argued to be of more combat utility than a revolver loaded with six-eight.
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November 15, 2012, 04:18 PM | #56 |
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I prefer the 158 grain bullets for the simple reason that they hit to point of aim in all of the guns I have, and several others that I have shot as well. I place a higher value on being able to place the round exactly where the sights are aligned than having more velocity.
Besides the mold I have is a 158 grain LSWC mold. Mine cost me less than one cent each to make.
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November 15, 2012, 05:31 PM | #57 |
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Tipoc
I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. Do you mean that someone shot with a 125 gr. round from a .357 in the stomach will suffer a heart attack as a result, and that this makes the 125 gr. bullet performance superior and lead to a "one shot stop"? Is this what you meant?
Yes that is what i mean. The temporary wound cavity and all of the kinetic energy expelled can cause a heart attack even if the heart isnt hit. If the kinetic energy is high enough it can even rupture other organs as well without hitting them. So from looking at brassfetchers vids and seeing the insane potential damage it can cause a human beings internals, I like the 125 gr bullet. However since the media doesnt have anything solid in side of it (the ones I saw had the solid media in front on the gel block on the outside) I am curious to know what a smaller 125 gr bullet will do after it shoots through flesh and then into bone. My theory is that it will deflect off of the bone. Where as a heavier bullet 158 gr could shatter it. Hope that clears things up a bit, I had a few beers last night when I wrote that |
November 15, 2012, 06:21 PM | #58 | |
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November 15, 2012, 07:42 PM | #59 | |
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After being shot with a .357 did they cry out "oh lord why did I have to get shot by the dreaded .357, why couldn't he have shot me with just a lowly 115gr 9mm instead. Oh lord why did that .357 round have to have that extra 10 grains of weight and couple hundred FPS, if it was moving a tad slower I would probably be fine and this hole in my lung would be no big deal". Last edited by Dragline45; November 15, 2012 at 07:52 PM. |
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November 15, 2012, 09:51 PM | #60 |
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People will believe what they want to believe.
The best I found for 9mm is about 500 ft-lbs. The best I found for .357 magnum is about 800 ft-lbs. If someone wants to beleve this is close in the real world, they will do so. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...oduct_list&c=1 .357 magnum is in a class separate from the typical service rounds as laid out by the 'Jello shooters'. 9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .45 acp all perform much the same (in the real world) with the right choice in ammunition. 9 mm: Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet) Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1) Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3) Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD) Speer Gold Dot 124 gr JHP Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P) Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP) Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA) Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA) Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5) Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2) Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC) Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T) Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364) .40 S&W: Barnes XPB 155 gr JHP (copper bullet) Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3) Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA) Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P) Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1) Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1) Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB) Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T) Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1) .45 ACP: Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet) Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2) Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1) Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1) Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T) Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP) http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
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November 16, 2012, 12:45 AM | #61 | |
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Robert1811,
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There is ample proof of this but you can also reason it out. How effective a bullet can be is dependent on a number of factors, bullet construction, weight, velocity, caliber and most of all shot placement. How the shooter handles the gun and if they can shoot it accurately is a large factor in the "shot placement" factor. Some shooters prefer a certain weight bullet because in their experience they shoot it better and it performs as well. In the links I put up earlier you see that there are a number of loads and calibers that impact the gelatin as dramatically, and some more so, than the 125 gr. .357 Mag loads that they show. How any particular bullet reacts when it hits bone does not solely depend on it's weight. It is not true that a 125 will bounce off bone while a 158 will break bone. It depends on the bullet type and construction, the velocity when it strikes, the energy when it strikes, what bones it hits and what angle it hits them at, etc. Either weight will punch through a bone if conditions are right. tipoc |
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November 16, 2012, 12:58 AM | #62 |
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I wonder if the authors of the long ago debunked "study" chortle, when they read their fiction being quoted as fact on the interwebz.....
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November 16, 2012, 11:53 AM | #63 | |
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November 16, 2012, 12:02 PM | #64 |
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Most modern defense projectiles exhibit nearly the same expansion in ballistic gel, water, wet newspaper and meat. The projectiles recovered from shooting game animals and humans with SD handgun projectiles, look basically the same as those recovered from gel.
The proof of the above fact is readily available on the net.
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November 16, 2012, 01:52 PM | #65 | |
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QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION |
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November 16, 2012, 01:58 PM | #66 |
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What it amounts to is that the way a bullet acts/performs in gel isn't necessarily going to be duplicated in a human body.
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November 16, 2012, 01:59 PM | #67 | |
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November 16, 2012, 04:07 PM | #68 | |
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Originally posted by Dragline45
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You also said that a 9mm or .45 ACP will "get the job done just as well" as a .357 Magnum. So, one can only assume that since you're able to pronounce one cartridge just as effective as another in such absolute terms, you must have some way to measure cartridge effectiveness. So, the second part of my question is exactly how do you measure cartridge effectiveness to such a precise degree that you can pronounce 9mm and .45 ACP to be just as effective as .357 Magnum in such absolute terms? You see, it seems to me that, in order to make an informed decision about decibel level vs. effectiveness, one would have to be able to quantify how much hearing damage a given decibel level is likely to cause and how effective different cartridges are so that we actually have something to compare. Even if we assume that the .357 Magnum causes more hearing damage due to it's higher decibel levels, we cannot resolutely say that the cartridge has no benefit over 9mm and .45 ACP unless both the levels of hearing damage caused and the terminal effectiveness of the compared calibers can be quantified in some way. |
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November 16, 2012, 04:42 PM | #69 |
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From a personal stand point I am a firm believer in shot placement. No amount of expansion will make up for a poorly placed shot in a non critical area.
Either round will do well if they hit a critical area. Poorly if not regardless of velocity, weight, or diameter.
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November 17, 2012, 06:41 PM | #70 |
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As far as .357 Mag is concerned for SD, if I used it I would favor 158 gr Gold Dots @ 1250 fps. They should be slightly ( ) easier on your ears and eyes, but not easy at all on the poor wretch hit by them.
The "nuclear" 125s @ 1450+ fps are simply murderous on your ears, too much to be practical IMO. Some of the tamer 125s like Golden Sabers are still very, very deadly and not quite as punishing to the shooter. I do have some custom loaded 158s @ 1450 fps, they are fun for destroying things.
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November 18, 2012, 03:14 PM | #71 | |
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Unfortunately, I have no data beyond that generalization. Just from lots and lots and lots of range experience with a lot of different firearms, including multiple 9mm's .45's, and .357's. I can say that there are 2 main things which are going to give you a really dramatic drop-off in muzzle sound: 1) not having a barrel-cylinder gap (and no porting either! I have a .357 with both and it's abusively loud) 2) subsonic projectiles are "substantially" quieter. .45 at subsonic speeds is really not all that loud. Probably the quietest of the 'effective' load options. 9mm at subsonic speeds is unbelievably quiet... unfortunately I'm not impressed with the effectiveness of subsonic 9mm. I recall being roadside with an officer who (at my request) was putting a wounded dear out of it's misery. I was curious about his terminal ballistics, and he was a rural cop who didn't care if i stood right there with him while he put the deer down. First round I had my ears covered, and I heard a pop that made me wonder if he had an under-charged round. Second shot I didn't cover my ears, it was still pretty quiet. 3rd shot, still very quiet, louder than a .22, but not by a lot. I surmised that he was using 9mm subsonic. I also surmised that it shouldn't take 3 shots point blank to kill an already mortally wounded fawn. If they made a highly effective 9mm subsonic (and maybe they do, i'm skittish about the idea though), then that would be your ideal round for avoiding hearing loss. Worth pointing out, the pitch of the sound is as important as the total decibels. Towards that end, slower moving rounds tend towards lower pitched reports (particularly subsonic rounds which lack that high frequency 'crack'). And I'm sure the basics of reflected sound are a factor as well. For example: you'd be better off firing in an open room than in a narrow hallway. If the bad guy shoots at you, then your hearing is probably screwed. Because the sound of a gun when you're forward of the muzzle is much much louder. Which is why reflected sounds indoors are such a problem in the first place. And why barrel-cylinder gaps or porting are so loud for the shooter. One of the reasons I changed my HD gun is noise. I was using a ported 4" .357 8shot. After a mishap with a 9mm hydrashock and a faulty S&W safety de-cock lever... I had some permanent hearing damage (I was downrange of the gun that went off). Later, at the range, I noticed that my .357 was MUCH louder than anything else I was shooting, and most most of the other stalls too, and I began to worry if my HD gun choice would make me deaf if I needed to use it indoors. I started loading it with golden sabers which are a very mild load in .357 (only 430 ft-lbs). This was better, but still louder than any of my other guns. Eventually I decided I wanted to get away from having a barrel-cylinder gap and ported barrel. I picked up a glock 34, and once proficient with it, switched the 2 guns for HD role. I'm using supersonic ammo in the 9mm, it's not "quiet", but it's less loud than my ported .357 wheelgun firing cheap .38 reloads, yet has more punch than the .357 golden sabers. But all this probably goes in the hearing thread. this is the 125gr/158gr thread _______ I still say 125's, because higher velocity means more explosive/reliable expansion, and if you're shooting at humans, 158's will over-penetrate quite a bit. that's just thinking about it logistically, above and beyond the 1-shot-stop stuff which seems to also favor 125's as well. I'm not a fan of hydrostatic shock or anything, but you do want to transmit the bullet's energy onto the target (preferably in the form of a permanent wound cavity as wide, deep, and violent as possible). 125's will release most of their energy in a target, while still having enough left over to make an impressive exit wound (increased bleeding, etc). The higher velocity round has a better chance of making hollopoints perform correctly through clothing and such. Meanwhile the 158's will have more penetration, and likely carry a great deal of the round's energy beyond the target, meaning less of the energy is "used" effectively to create wound trauma. Against humans .357 ranges from excellent penetration to overpenetration. use faster-lighter loads with less sectional density to keep it leaning towards "excellent penetration" and not overpenetration. Unless you plan on shooting people through obstacles, then use 158's. But shooting at someone who's hiding behind cover is not considered "home defense" in most states. Last edited by K4THRYN; November 18, 2012 at 03:19 PM. |
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November 18, 2012, 07:04 PM | #72 | |||
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November 19, 2012, 12:38 AM | #73 | |||
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Originally posted by Dragline45
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As far as cartridge effectiveness goes, we certainly have a lot of data on that subject but unfortunately much of it is conflicting or of suspect reliability. As I mentioned earlier, there is no consensus on handgun cartridge effectiveness. Because of this, stating that one cartridge is just as good as another is a statement of opinion, though it may be an educated opinion, rather than one of absolute fact. Despite scientific advances over the years, the effects of a bullets energy and the human body are both things which are not completely understood. As such, nearly all the data that we have on firearm wounding mechanisms is, at best, educated guesses. |
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November 19, 2012, 07:59 AM | #74 |
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....and here I thought this thread was about 125gr or 158gr in a .357. Not another 9mm vs .45ACP vs everything else thread.
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November 19, 2012, 09:53 AM | #75 | |||
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It is not know for certain that the .357 has more terminal effectiveness than a .45 ACP, or a .40 at all, or if it has more real world effectiveness than 9mm for that matter. In fact, anecdotal police evidence points to the 180 grain .40 S&W being every bit as effective, in fact more so than the old 125 grain .357 in the California Highway Patrol's hands. They used the 125 grain .357 from 1970-1990, they have used the .40 S&W from 1990-till today. Thats along time with a lot of shootings, autopsy and officer reports give the 180 grain .40 S&W higher marks. Ballistic gelatin penetration test also show that the various .357 loadings don't preform substantially different than other handgun cartridges either. In fact the only evidence that exists that the .357 is the ne plus ultra of street man stoppers. Is the thirty year old Marshall & Sanow book. Even if we disregard everything and go by their book, they give the 1450 fps 125 grain .357 a 96% OSS rating and the 230 grain JHP .45 Auto a 96% rating. So no substantial difference there either.
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