Loading manual comment!!!

beemerb · July 8, 2000, 11:24 AM

I see many people on this form and elsware asking about what loads they should use with this cal and this bullet and so on.I am no talking about the people asking for best accuracy loads or special loads.
People loading manuals are as important a part of your reloading equipment as dies or a set of scales.For the ones only loading a couple of cal there are specific manuals for that cal giving all the different powder loads.All the info in one package for under 10.00.
Remember the load you get from someone else just might blow your gun up.You might be shooting a S&W 29 and he is shooting a ruger redhawk and working at max.
This is a saftey issue and one that seems to be overlooked by a lot of people.It allso should be in the 4 safty rules for handling.Add the 5 rule.You shall work up your own loads for your own fiream.
SAFTEY FIRST AND FOREMOST

------------------
beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain

bk40 · July 8, 2000, 01:38 PM

I couldn't agree with you more! Each and every firearm/barrel is different and if the load you're using is close to max... well, you could be injured or worse.

best advice- start low and work slowly up.

Turk · July 8, 2000, 09:19 PM

Beemerb,

I totally agree that safety must be the top priority in reloading. But I also think there is room to use another person’s data. Taking in the consideration that the loads that work in another firearm may not be safe in yours. So check you manuals and drop back some.

I recently purchased a Browning pump in 243 Winchester and made a post for pet loads. To be quite frank I don’t have the time to work up the best load. Case in point the Hodgdon manual lists 21 different powders for 243 using a 100-gr. bullet so if I can benefit someone else’s work I’ll start there. By the way I have 13 different reloading manuals and if you check each one you’ll find different max. loads recommend for the same bullet/powder. But that all depends upon components whether a rifle or pressure barrel etc. etc. was used.

A MANUAL isn’t always correct either but should never be used to load max. right off the bat. Quite a few years ago when Accurate was just coming on to the sence they had a load listed for the 308 Win. That caused me a little misery with flattened primers and head separations. The next year they backed off a couple of grains in their loading data.

In the data that one of the members posted for my post concerning the 243 his recommended loading was 2 grains over max in one of the powders. He may be using a newer or older manual or he worked up to this load without any visible overpressure signs etc. and it works in his gun. He also cautioned that these were max. loads and I should drop a some from his loading.

Will I use his recommendation? Yes to a point. I will use his recommended powder but will back off to under the load level in the manual. When I go to the range I’ll have three different powder wieghts for that loading upto the manual max.

Also for hunting loads I want hunting accuracy with the highest MV but for target (paper) I've always found the mid-range loads give the best accuracy.

Again I agree!!! Safety must be top priority.

You all have a good day.

Turk

[This message has been edited by Turk (edited July 08, 2000).]

**Bud Helms** · July 8, 2000, 09:36 PM

FWIW, I think coming here and asking for a load for you pistol or rifle is a sign of plain laziness. I also don't include those "special" load discussions, but the ones that go like ... "What should I feed my M___?" Well loaded cartridges, of course!

I especially don't understand it from reloaders. They are missing a bunch of good range and learning time. Who wants a shortcut to reduce time at the range?

saands · July 9, 2000, 12:44 AM

I'm sorry, but I take exception to the lazy comment. If someone has had bad experiences (like bad fouling) with a particular load, why should I waste the $25 on a pound of the same powder and some bullets, primers and a bunch of time to learn the same thing? If someone doesn't even have a clue where to start and I have tried a couple of different powders, I for one am happy to point him/her in the right direction. I agree with all of the safety first part, but have you ever tried to find an honest load for a 7.62x25 for a CZ-52? All the manuals list the same silly loads for the 7.62 Tokarev ... the CZ has a roller locking action like the HK-91 and is up to far more than the old Russian Tokarev pistols. I took a load off the net ... just the powder mind you ... and called Accurate and got the MAX values directly from them. I never would have found an acceptable load otherwise. I think there is a place for asking for starting points ... personally I think that place is here. Sorry I got a little worked up ... I usually don't

Be safe!
saands

tonyz · July 9, 2000, 09:26 AM

I agree that you should learn to load by reading from several differant loading manuals.
I have 9-10 manuals and use them all the time.Especially when starting a new load and or cal. This way I no I am safe,and confident with my reloads.
I can understand powder recommendation as it can get expensive trying 5-7 differant powders.
Isn't that why they made the manuals!!!!

Tony Z

------------------
Match grade Bullets at Kmart prices
http://www.xmission.com/~chad/egs/co...hard_cast.html

also for gun accessorys.
http://gungoodies.com

[This message has been edited by tonyz (edited July 09, 2000).]

**Bud Helms** · July 9, 2000, 02:35 PM

saands,

I seem to have developed a habit recently of making some pretty broad sweeping statements that don't say what I mean to say.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>FWIW, I think coming here and asking for a load for you pistol or rifle is a sign of plain laziness.[/quote] This is an example. TFL has a saying ... Think Twice, Post Once. That would have worked real well here, had I done it. In fact, I was lazy in my post.

I'll ask you guys to excuse the tone of my post and I'll try not to sound like a know-it-all so often.

...

JackFlash · July 9, 2000, 08:30 PM

Data manuals are a necessity. Besides load data, they provide dimensions, test velocities, and some discussion of the caliber being loaded and it's characteristics.

But where I really enjoy having some decent load manuals is when I'm searching for data on a caliber I know nothing about. What's the difference between a .17 Ackley Bee and a .17-222 ??? The manual has the answer, not just in load data, but in specs for the cases, velocities, range of bullet weight and more.

But too, there's a lot of data available online (although I don't trust "folk" forumlas and worry about transcription errors). Most component/powder mfgs. have reliable data online.

beemerb · July 9, 2000, 08:34 PM

I just counted my manuals and was surprised.
I have 23 not counting the bookmarked ones on the puter.
Useing someone elses powder recomendation are a good thing.MY reason for posting this topic was some people are too willing to use other peoples loads without chacking them out against their loading manuals.
I did this not to knock anyone but to draw attention to a perceved problem.If one person double checks a load because of my posting it will make it all worth while.
Bob

------------------
Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

beemerb · July 9, 2000, 08:36 PM

I just counted my manuals and was surprised.
I have 23 not counting the bookmarked ones on the puter.
Useing someone elses powder recomendation are a good thing.MY reason for posting this topic was some people are too willing to use other peoples loads without chacking them out against their loading manuals.
I did this not to knock anyone but to draw attention to a perceved problem.If one person double checks a load because of my posting it will make it all worth while.
Bob

------------------
Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

beemerb · July 9, 2000, 08:36 PM

I just counted my manuals and was surprised.
I have 23 not counting the bookmarked ones on the puter.
Useing someone elses powder recomendation are a good thing.MY reason for posting this topic was some people are too willing to use other peoples loads without chacking them out against their loading manuals.
I did this not to knock anyone but to draw attention to a perceved problem.If one person double checks a load because of my posting it will make it all worth while.
Bob

------------------
Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

Mike Davies · July 9, 2000, 11:52 PM

Hmm..careful, guys...I understand the point being put forward here that reloaders should ALWAYS consult their manuals, but I see no reason to slam the door on well intended questions regarding reloads; this is a public forum after all.
Most experienced reloaders will usually not baulk at sharing their favourite load for a particular firearm with others...they will usually caution the person to whom the information is being given to that "their mileage may vary", and to work up to the 'favourite' load, always looking for signs of too much pressure, etc.
I believe that there is a measure of responsibility here, on the part of the person seeking the information, as well as the person giving it.
My 'favourite' load for my Norinco 1911 is a 200gr lead SWC over 5.7gr of WW231. I wouldn't, however, be shy to ask what others are using.<g> Doesn't mean that I'm 'lazy', not looking in my dozens of reloading manuals, or missing out on working up to a good load, or taking my life in my hands..<g>
Just my .02cents worth...

Art Eatman · July 10, 2000, 10:50 AM

Mike, I've been using 5.8 grains of 231 behind the 200-grain SWC since 1981; it always made Major in IPSC...

Actually, it's just above a "plinker load".

Art

beemerb · July 10, 2000, 11:36 AM

Sorry about the triple post.I have no idea what happened.
Bob

------------------
Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

Hammer · July 10, 2000, 12:12 PM

Here is a possible reason for asking about someones load data which has happened to me in the past. I haven't been into reloading that long, have picked up a new cal. that I would like to reload. Since I'm new at this, and only have 1-2 manuals (and don't have alot of $$ to put into 20-30 manuals at the time) I ask the board for their data. Now we all know that 1 maunuals starting load is another manuals max load. By asking the board I can get a rough idea for a load and what is working for others, and therfore make a somewhat educated decision where to start. This process for me was a step to be safe in the first place.

Mike Davies · July 10, 2000, 07:53 PM

Art:
IPSC's what I'm using my load for.

Now that the Major PF has been reduced to 170, 5.7gr will get me just over 850fps, with room to spare..and 'plinker' load recoil.

I'm going to load a couple of hundred rounds using jacketed 200gr SWC's..I would think that 5.8gr of WW231 will give me at least 850fps..? I won't have time to chrono these rounds before the next match on Saturday, so I'm taking a bit of a chance.
Mike/BC
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Art Eatman:
Mike, I've been using 5.8 grains of 231 behind the 200-grain SWC since 1981; it always made Major in IPSC... Actually, it's just above a "plinker load".

Art[/quote]

[This message has been edited by Mike Davies (edited July 10, 2000).]

beemerb · July 10, 2000, 08:42 PM

Hammer;
Remember there are a number of reloading manuals on line.Winchester and hornady for sure.MAny other sites too.If you want email me and I will send you the URL's of what I have.These can be downloaded if you want.
Let me know.
Bob

------------------
Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.

Bogie · July 11, 2000, 12:28 PM

Different strokes for different folks...

I load a whole grain over published max in a .243 critter gun I have. Why? It shoots well, and the load doesn't show any nasty pressure signs.

In my 6PPC, I _started_ with a load that was at least a grain over, and worked up. Why? The guy who made the rifle suggested that. And since he's got a lot of tropies...

A little while back, I worked up a load with Nosler 55 grainers and AA2200, in both the 6PPC and the 6BR. I got the PPC up to 4,000 fps, altho it was making me nervous, but I didn't blow any primers, and I got the BR up to 4,100 fps without as much nervousness. Of course, this was in match-quality firearms...

In a .357 I own, I stay well under the max, because it just doesn't seem to like the hot stuff...

Nukem · July 12, 2000, 07:23 AM

I usually add "standard reloading cautions apply when using this data" or something similar when responding to a post asking for specific load data.
As for reloading manuals, data sometimes changes from edition to edition. I ran into an example with Sierra data. OAL on a 9mm load decreased by .090 between one older manual and a newer one, same bullet, same powder charge. I querried Sierra and they said different ballistician developed the data and they stood behind it. I figured seating a bullet .090" deeper would raise pressure a good bit over the old oal.

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July 8, 2000, 11:24 AM	#1
beemerb Junior member Join Date: October 2, 1999 Location: AZ Posts: 1,759	I see many people on this form and elsware asking about what loads they should use with this cal and this bullet and so on.I am no talking about the people asking for best accuracy loads or special loads. People loading manuals are as important a part of your reloading equipment as dies or a set of scales.For the ones only loading a couple of cal there are specific manuals for that cal giving all the different powder loads.All the info in one package for under 10.00. Remember the load you get from someone else just might blow your gun up.You might be shooting a S&W 29 and he is shooting a ruger redhawk and working at max. This is a saftey issue and one that seems to be overlooked by a lot of people.It allso should be in the 4 safty rules for handling.Add the 5 rule.You shall work up your own loads for your own fiream. SAFTEY FIRST AND FOREMOST ------------------ beemerb We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world; and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men every day who don't know anything and can't read. -Mark Twain

July 8, 2000, 01:38 PM	#2
bk40 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 1999 Location: Mississippi Posts: 1,004	I couldn't agree with you more! Each and every firearm/barrel is different and if the load you're using is close to max... well, you could be injured or worse. best advice- start low and work slowly up.

July 8, 2000, 09:19 PM	#3
Turk Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2000 Location: USA Posts: 517	Beemerb, I totally agree that safety must be the top priority in reloading. But I also think there is room to use another person’s data. Taking in the consideration that the loads that work in another firearm may not be safe in yours. So check you manuals and drop back some. I recently purchased a Browning pump in 243 Winchester and made a post for pet loads. To be quite frank I don’t have the time to work up the best load. Case in point the Hodgdon manual lists 21 different powders for 243 using a 100-gr. bullet so if I can benefit someone else’s work I’ll start there. By the way I have 13 different reloading manuals and if you check each one you’ll find different max. loads recommend for the same bullet/powder. But that all depends upon components whether a rifle or pressure barrel etc. etc. was used. A MANUAL isn’t always correct either but should never be used to load max. right off the bat. Quite a few years ago when Accurate was just coming on to the sence they had a load listed for the 308 Win. That caused me a little misery with flattened primers and head separations. The next year they backed off a couple of grains in their loading data. In the data that one of the members posted for my post concerning the 243 his recommended loading was 2 grains over max in one of the powders. He may be using a newer or older manual or he worked up to this load without any visible overpressure signs etc. and it works in his gun. He also cautioned that these were max. loads and I should drop a some from his loading. Will I use his recommendation? Yes to a point. I will use his recommended powder but will back off to under the load level in the manual. When I go to the range I’ll have three different powder wieghts for that loading upto the manual max. Also for hunting loads I want hunting accuracy with the highest MV but for target (paper) I've always found the mid-range loads give the best accuracy. Again I agree!!! Safety must be top priority. You all have a good day. Turk [This message has been edited by Turk (edited July 08, 2000).]

July 8, 2000, 09:36 PM	#4
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	FWIW, I think coming here and asking for a load for you pistol or rifle is a sign of plain laziness. I also don't include those "special" load discussions, but the ones that go like ... "What should I feed my M___?" Well loaded cartridges, of course! I especially don't understand it from reloaders. They are missing a bunch of good range and learning time. Who wants a shortcut to reduce time at the range?

July 9, 2000, 12:44 AM	#5
saands Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1999 Posts: 1,573	I'm sorry, but I take exception to the lazy comment. If someone has had bad experiences (like bad fouling) with a particular load, why should I waste the $25 on a pound of the same powder and some bullets, primers and a bunch of time to learn the same thing? If someone doesn't even have a clue where to start and I have tried a couple of different powders, I for one am happy to point him/her in the right direction. I agree with all of the safety first part, but have you ever tried to find an honest load for a 7.62x25 for a CZ-52? All the manuals list the same silly loads for the 7.62 Tokarev ... the CZ has a roller locking action like the HK-91 and is up to far more than the old Russian Tokarev pistols. I took a load off the net ... just the powder mind you ... and called Accurate and got the MAX values directly from them. I never would have found an acceptable load otherwise. I think there is a place for asking for starting points ... personally I think that place is here. Sorry I got a little worked up ... I usually don't Be safe! saands

July 9, 2000, 09:26 AM	#6
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	I agree that you should learn to load by reading from several differant loading manuals. I have 9-10 manuals and use them all the time.Especially when starting a new load and or cal. This way I no I am safe,and confident with my reloads. I can understand powder recommendation as it can get expensive trying 5-7 differant powders. Isn't that why they made the manuals!!!! Tony Z ------------------ Match grade Bullets at Kmart prices http://www.xmission.com/~chad/egs/co...hard_cast.html also for gun accessorys. http://gungoodies.com [This message has been edited by tonyz (edited July 09, 2000).]

July 9, 2000, 02:35 PM	#7
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	saands, I seem to have developed a habit recently of making some pretty broad sweeping statements that don't say what I mean to say. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>FWIW, I think coming here and asking for a load for you pistol or rifle is a sign of plain laziness.[/quote] This is an example. TFL has a saying ... Think Twice, Post Once. That would have worked real well here, had I done it. In fact, I was lazy in my post. I'll ask you guys to excuse the tone of my post and I'll try not to sound like a know-it-all so often. ...

July 9, 2000, 08:30 PM	#8
JackFlash Junior member Join Date: July 8, 2000 Posts: 107	Data manuals are a necessity. Besides load data, they provide dimensions, test velocities, and some discussion of the caliber being loaded and it's characteristics. But where I really enjoy having some decent load manuals is when I'm searching for data on a caliber I know nothing about. What's the difference between a .17 Ackley Bee and a .17-222 ??? The manual has the answer, not just in load data, but in specs for the cases, velocities, range of bullet weight and more. But too, there's a lot of data available online (although I don't trust "folk" forumlas and worry about transcription errors). Most component/powder mfgs. have reliable data online.

July 9, 2000, 08:34 PM	#9
beemerb Junior member Join Date: October 2, 1999 Location: AZ Posts: 1,759	I just counted my manuals and was surprised. I have 23 not counting the bookmarked ones on the puter. Useing someone elses powder recomendation are a good thing.MY reason for posting this topic was some people are too willing to use other peoples loads without chacking them out against their loading manuals. I did this not to knock anyone but to draw attention to a perceved problem.If one person double checks a load because of my posting it will make it all worth while. Bob ------------------ Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed. I'm old and deceitful.

July 9, 2000, 08:36 PM	#10
beemerb Junior member Join Date: October 2, 1999 Location: AZ Posts: 1,759	I just counted my manuals and was surprised. I have 23 not counting the bookmarked ones on the puter. Useing someone elses powder recomendation are a good thing.MY reason for posting this topic was some people are too willing to use other peoples loads without chacking them out against their loading manuals. I did this not to knock anyone but to draw attention to a perceved problem.If one person double checks a load because of my posting it will make it all worth while. Bob ------------------ Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed. I'm old and deceitful.

July 9, 2000, 11:52 PM	#12
Mike Davies Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 376	Hmm..careful, guys...I understand the point being put forward here that reloaders should ALWAYS consult their manuals, but I see no reason to slam the door on well intended questions regarding reloads; this is a public forum after all. Most experienced reloaders will usually not baulk at sharing their favourite load for a particular firearm with others...they will usually caution the person to whom the information is being given to that "their mileage may vary", and to work up to the 'favourite' load, always looking for signs of too much pressure, etc. I believe that there is a measure of responsibility here, on the part of the person seeking the information, as well as the person giving it. My 'favourite' load for my Norinco 1911 is a 200gr lead SWC over 5.7gr of WW231. I wouldn't, however, be shy to ask what others are using.<g> Doesn't mean that I'm 'lazy', not looking in my dozens of reloading manuals, or missing out on working up to a good load, or taking my life in my hands..<g> Just my .02cents worth...

July 10, 2000, 10:50 AM	#13
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Mike, I've been using 5.8 grains of 231 behind the 200-grain SWC since 1981; it always made Major in IPSC... Actually, it's just above a "plinker load". Art

July 10, 2000, 11:36 AM	#14
beemerb Junior member Join Date: October 2, 1999 Location: AZ Posts: 1,759	Sorry about the triple post.I have no idea what happened. Bob ------------------ Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed. I'm old and deceitful.

July 10, 2000, 12:12 PM	#15
Hammer Member Join Date: May 1, 2000 Location: Colorado Posts: 16	Here is a possible reason for asking about someones load data which has happened to me in the past. I haven't been into reloading that long, have picked up a new cal. that I would like to reload. Since I'm new at this, and only have 1-2 manuals (and don't have alot of $$ to put into 20-30 manuals at the time) I ask the board for their data. Now we all know that 1 maunuals starting load is another manuals max load. By asking the board I can get a rough idea for a load and what is working for others, and therfore make a somewhat educated decision where to start. This process for me was a step to be safe in the first place.

July 10, 2000, 07:53 PM	#16
Mike Davies Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 376	Art: IPSC's what I'm using my load for. Now that the Major PF has been reduced to 170, 5.7gr will get me just over 850fps, with room to spare..and 'plinker' load recoil. I'm going to load a couple of hundred rounds using jacketed 200gr SWC's..I would think that 5.8gr of WW231 will give me at least 850fps..? I won't have time to chrono these rounds before the next match on Saturday, so I'm taking a bit of a chance. Mike/BC <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Art Eatman: Mike, I've been using 5.8 grains of 231 behind the 200-grain SWC since 1981; it always made Major in IPSC... Actually, it's just above a "plinker load". Art[/quote] [This message has been edited by Mike Davies (edited July 10, 2000).]

July 10, 2000, 08:42 PM	#17
beemerb Junior member Join Date: October 2, 1999 Location: AZ Posts: 1,759	Hammer; Remember there are a number of reloading manuals on line.Winchester and hornady for sure.MAny other sites too.If you want email me and I will send you the URL's of what I have.These can be downloaded if you want. Let me know. Bob ------------------ Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed. I'm old and deceitful.

July 11, 2000, 12:28 PM	#18
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Different strokes for different folks... I load a whole grain over published max in a .243 critter gun I have. Why? It shoots well, and the load doesn't show any nasty pressure signs. In my 6PPC, I _started_ with a load that was at least a grain over, and worked up. Why? The guy who made the rifle suggested that. And since he's got a lot of tropies... A little while back, I worked up a load with Nosler 55 grainers and AA2200, in both the 6PPC and the 6BR. I got the PPC up to 4,000 fps, altho it was making me nervous, but I didn't blow any primers, and I got the BR up to 4,100 fps without as much nervousness. Of course, this was in match-quality firearms... In a .357 I own, I stay well under the max, because it just doesn't seem to like the hot stuff...

July 12, 2000, 07:23 AM	#19
Nukem Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Posts: 709	I usually add "standard reloading cautions apply when using this data" or something similar when responding to a post asking for specific load data. As for reloading manuals, data sometimes changes from edition to edition. I ran into an example with Sierra data. OAL on a 9mm load decreased by .090 between one older manual and a newer one, same bullet, same powder charge. I querried Sierra and they said different ballistician developed the data and they stood behind it. I figured seating a bullet .090" deeper would raise pressure a good bit over the old oal.