A lesson in litigation.....

Dave McC · June 28, 2001, 08:58 AM

Here's the sordid tale of one incident, mass ignorance and a little office politics....

I was the Duty Lt on the Night shift at a Light Max prison in Md,getting ready to wrap up after an uneventful shift. I was notified the Security Chief wanted to see me after I was relieved on post. I made my way to his office in the Admin area of the prison, and was waved in immediately. I knew then that whatever it was, I wasn't in trouble. If I was, I'd have been kept waiting.As it was, I knew I wasn't going home right then....

The Chief got right to the point. A female rookie had flunked the shotgun part of the firearms training, and had filed charges against the State, her instructor and the Administration, saying that
she had been persecuted and harassed, thus causing her to flunk the shotgun course. Her scores with Mini 14 and Model 64 revolver were marginal. She passed, but not by much on courses I regarded as way too easy.

The Chief was joined at this point by the Training Officer, a decent sort who was no firearms authority but a good trainer. The TO advised me that this rookie had "Slipped and fallen" on her first day at the Academy, tried to convince the State Doc she was permanently disabled thereby, and seemed more into getovers than work. She had written up her instructor as sexually harassing her, had claimed that many women of her race had been rejected due to bigotry among the instructors, and was shaping up as a first class problem child.

One of the things she had claimed was that she had been persecuted after rejecting her shotgun instructor's advances by being given a shotgun way too heavy to lift.Of course, how she could be expected to control inmates when a shotgun was more than she could bear was not brought up by her.

I saw an approach open up.

After giving my ideas to the Chief and TO, I borrowed a ten lb capacity scale from the mail room and took it to the armory. I weighed 6 shotguns with it, all 18" bbled 870s, including the two training shotguns that had been used the day on the range she had flunked. Weights ran from 6 lbs, 10 oz, to about 7 lbs 3 oz,IIRC. I returned to the Chief's office, gave him a short written report, and we planned this out.

Around 8 AM the rookie reported for "Remedial" firearms training. She had an obvious attitude walking in the door. She also brought along a union rep I knew, and wished I didn't. He was slime, a bottomfeeder. They started in on the harassment, and the Chief said that she would be given an opportunity to redo the shotgun portion of firearms training, using the Senior Instructor(ME!) and she would be given the lightest shotgun we had to see if that corrected the problem.Also, the TO would be personally supervising the qualification process.

So we went to the range and along with the usual range equipment, we took one of the video cameras we kept for documenting incidents, two blank cassette tapes and a pair of hot batteries.....

We went to the range and every thing we did, from the classroom portion to the actual shooting was taped. She had been given the lightest 870 in the armory, got intensive one on one training in how to handle it, proper form,and so on. And there was no sabotage, she got as good training as one would find in a police style entry level course. Then, the fun started.....

While being taped, I shot the course for demonstration. Then, happily, a female Instructor from the Women's Institution showed up and was pressed into service. Sgt Parks(Now with the Federal Marshalls) was smaller than the oxlike rookie, had never fired a shotgun before starting with the state, and was one darn good competitor at trap and 3 gun.She fired also. Our scores were well up over 90%. All this was taped. And Sgt Parks stuck around to lend a hand and to also score the targets.

SO, it was our rookie's turn. Like many folks who know no better,she tilted back to try to counterbalance the weight of the shotgun, and I had her lean into it like we all should.I took her through the practice round, and she kept trying to lean back. By state rules, no help and /or instruction can be given during the actual firing for score, so as soon as she was ready, she had to fire all by herself.

During this, the union rep had stuck around to "See Justice done". Did I mention it was a sweltering summer day? As I wiped the sweat from my brow, I was comforted to see him and the rookie sweating even more than I.

Hammer time:

Even after firing 10 light trap loads, another ten 00 for familiarization, the 10 rounds of Winchester 00 shot for score rocked her. Of course, she had forgotten to lean into the shot after the first round, the butt migrated from her shoulder cup to her upper arm,and when it got back to her shoulder part of the pad stuck up over her shoulder,thus the recoil was concentrated in the smaller area in contact. Couldn't help wincing a little myself, tho I kept a professional demeanor.

After the dust settled, it was scoring time. All rookies needed to pass with a score of at least 70%, which meant 63 hits out of 90 pellets fired.

Her score was in the 30s. Ray Charles,with proper training, could have beaten that.

At this point, the TO asked her(While filming) if she wanted to try again. Her response,"$%^&*,NO!!. Her rep, by this time completely sweating through his cheap wool suit pants, said they had to confer and they went aside.

We returned to the Institution, and the TO passed the word up the Chain of Command that the rookie had failed the shotgun portion. As per procedures, she was called into the Warden's office and terninated forthwith.Meanwhile, I had been ordered to prepare and submit a comprehensive written report of all this.

Some comments....

One,COF was 5 rounds from the 15 yards line at a tombstone type target, 5 more from the 25. The exercise started with a "Cruiser Ready" shotgun, empty chamber, full mag, action locked shut, safety on. After the four rounds in the mag were shot, the slide was kept to the rear, the 5th round "Combat Loaded" through the ejection port.

Typical Rookie scores on this were about 75-80%.

Two,if she had put the same effort into learning the weapon and getting with the training,she'd have passed and still had a job. Instant Karma, in this case.

Three, any training done should be documented in some way. Those of us that get training should hang onto those certificates and score sheets. Those of us that give training should keep a copy of everything.

Questions, comments?

M1911 · June 28, 2001, 10:09 AM

Let me get this straight, the course of fire was only 10 rounds and she flunked it?

The only lack of justice here was that she wasn't terminated sooner...

M1911

C.R.Sam · June 28, 2001, 11:21 AM

"Her score was in the 30s. Ray Charles,with proper training, could have beaten that. "

One spewed keyboard.

Documentation and witnesses are a must. Tis a shame you had to jump through so many hoops to get rid of the inept.

Well done.

Sam

David Scott · June 28, 2001, 12:08 PM

The best defense against suits of this sort is documentation and procedure. You had that right down. Good job.

If you taped her actual firing for qualification, you can show that she did not do the things she had just been instructed on, like leaning into the gun and getting proper placement of the stock on her shoulder. I guess they figured out that they didn't have a leg to stand on.

IMHO a video camera is a great training tool. I have sen folks analyze their golf swing with one, and I have used them in industrial situations to refine machine setups. I'll bet that all of us could learn something if we watched a tape of ourselves shooting.

Ledbetter · June 28, 2001, 01:06 PM

Tale well told. Deed well done.

Dave McC · June 28, 2001, 03:38 PM

Thanks, Guys.

M1911-The course bit it badly. Sad to say,it's probably closer to typical than one would like to think. Most Police and COs do not shoot shotguns recreationally, at least in this area. If one likes to shoot, and does on occasion, they're guaranteed to be more effective than their peers who don't.

Most of the hunters we had there could 90% that course w/o busting a sweat.Everybody else had to work just to qualify.

Sorry about the keyboard,Sam,I deny wrongdoing(G).

This one was comparatively easy, some we had to put up with for years,even decades. But, like a septic tank, the scum went to where they skimmed themselves.Occasionally one would stop coming in, they had PO'd enough good officers that they stood a better chance in the prison than in the officer's parking lot. As for staffing, from Day One in 77 to Day last in 97, I worked short and with half___es. Given a choice, I'd have worked shorter.

David S, a video camera in the right place is a really fine tool to have.I may get Son to tape me trapshooting.

Herr Walther · June 28, 2001, 03:53 PM

I think my momma delivered me with a shotgun in my hands. I sometimes take it for granted that not everyone shoots or has shot one of these as much as others have.

Good documentation on the whiners training. I think her lousey attitude is what failed her more than anything. There are some, like those who join the military, that are not receptive or responsive to training.

Nanaimo Barr · June 28, 2001, 03:54 PM

I am damn glad I don't have to put up with people like that! (when I was a Military Instructor, they couldn't pull crap like that, we just failed them) and the video taping is a very good idea.. my wife suddenly started shooting low and left with her SA's and I couldn't see what was wrong (I am NOT a firearms instructor!!), dug out the cam-corder, set it up, put through some rounds, went home, reviewed the tape, there was the problem clear as day (bad grip on the pistols that I couldn't see from behind and to the side)

I strongly recomend getting together with some friends and doing some taping, you might be amazed and pleased at what you see

NB

June 29, 2001, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Her response,"$%^&*,NO!!

And she expected to keep her job? LOL!

Dave McC · June 29, 2001, 07:28 AM

Herr Walther, I've no footage of my Mom taking the Md Small Bore championships in 1943, but among the old family home movies we have converted to video, we have a couple of tapes of her practicing.

And, warped boards pull their own nails. Glad we got rid of her before it cost us time and trouble.
And a bad CO is plenty of trouble on the best of days, and the critical factor on the worst.

N Barr, Corrections has always had a quality prob with personnel. The media do not help. When was the last time you saw a CO portrayed positively on TV or the movies?Usually,we're depicted as sadistic,brutal, corrupt, racist thugs little different than the scum we guard. I was a good cop in a very,very bad 'hood.No gun, no cruiser, backup of indefinite quality and oft supervision to match.At least one Shift Commander I bumped heads with was as big a crook as anything we had in the cells.

PF, I think she realized it was a lost cause.

Monkeyleg · June 29, 2001, 09:35 AM

Dave McC, this question is only marginally related to this thread. A former classmate of mine was arrested along with others in a cocaine-dealing operation years back. From what I recall, she was convicted. Now I find out she's working as a guard in a womens' prison down in AZ. Is that possible legally? I know she could never be on any police force I know of, but I don't know the ins and outs of corrections.

Nanaimo Barr · June 29, 2001, 10:30 AM

Dave, I ment no disrespect of CO's.. I was refering to the "candidate", not to any of the CO's, my brother in law is a CO in Canada (and if you think it's bad here....)and your point is well taken, take a look at my sig line....

NB

Dave McC · June 29, 2001, 10:32 AM

I've no experience in AZ Corrections, but if she's a convicted felon, not here in Md. Of course, she may have only gotten a misdemeanor. And, she may have had the conviction set aside, especially if she gave everyone else up. If she rolled over, she may have walked....

Or, the background check didn't pick it up. We had a female officer who had several juvenile arrests/convictions for prostitution. She was able to keep her job because she had a clean adult record.

Your classmate probably is doing exactly what she did to get arrested again. Officer corruption is quite a problem,just like the police anywhere.

AC's & 45's · June 29, 2001, 12:34 PM

Her response,"$%^&*,NO!!

Would you care to translate that please?

Funny how some people change their tune when they seal their own fate like that.

Dave McC · June 29, 2001, 12:57 PM

N Barr, no offense taken. Sorry, one of my buttons got pushed. In fact, NO positive images exist of any CO in the contemporary world. We're the stepchildren of the LE world.

AC, it wasn't the language, it was the sentiment. We're used to all the bad words, the average CO hears(and oft uses) more scatology,obscenity and trash than DIs.

Even after 3 years of retirement, I have to remind myself that "Mother" is not half a word when I'm tired or irritated....

A note on rookies and shotguns....

I had my PAST wearable pad for a couple of years before I left training. In extreme cases, mostly of small and oft female officers,I'd offer it, along with a tricked/tweaked personal 870, for the remedial and familiarity rounds. Naturally, they had to qualify with Issue weapons.

Even tiny little pixies could wear that pad, with adjustments, and use a 9 lb plus 870,getting good results, IF THEY WERE MOTIVATED AND WILLING TO WORK.The key's right there....

One male officer was 4'10", not fat, and managed to qualify with all three weapons to 85% or so. I wish all candidates had the willingness and heart he did.

Finally, myself and many other instructors will swear on Bibles that women, by and large, make better firearm students. Better eye/hand co-ordination(Tho mixed dominance is much more common among females),better at working together, and less to unlearn. Never had a female pull that Wesley Snipes action movie "tilt the gun on its side" %^&*, but plenty of macho types did.

mjcitra · June 29, 2001, 01:59 PM

15 yards at a tombstone like target and then 25 yards?? Thats pretty close, how the hell can one miss so badly. Any decent shotgun hunter would ace that.

Nanaimo Barr · June 29, 2001, 02:52 PM

Dave, funny you should mention about women being better students, I've taught women in the (Canadian) Military, and found them to be good students and quick study's, (not to mention my wife, 5 minutes after I showed her how to hold and squeeze she was out shooting me), but I have heard the same from several instructors. kinda puts the Gub Grabbers stated oppinion that women are too stupid to use firearms to shame...

Dave McC · June 29, 2001, 03:21 PM

Mjcitra,the key word there was hunter. Sometimes we forget how intimidating shooting a shotgun can be if one's a non shooter to that point. All the stories about kick, seeing someone shoot with bad form and visibly show their pain, etc, conspire to convince the rookie that whatever happens, pain and misery will result.

But, when a first shotgun comes to many a kid as a X-mas or B-day present, and they learn to use it at an early age, it conditions them to regard it as a common part of life, and no more remarkable than a P/U truck. A shotgun behind the kitchen door where I grew up was practically universal in the area, then rural.

That course is common, BTW, and not limited to Corrections. You might want to try it yourself and see how you compare.My guess is, considering the sort of people that frequent Shotgun BBs, you'd have no problem scoring over 90%.

FYI, when I was hired in 77, my initial qualifier with the shotgun consisted of firing off a few rounds at rats on the prison dump. It has gotten better, and has a long way to go,IMO.

Right you are, N Barr. Women make much better students. Wonderful Wife calls the reason "Testosterone Poisoning". Dunno if I agree, but there must be something to it(G)...

June 28, 2001, 08:58 AM	#1
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A lesson in litigation..... Here's the sordid tale of one incident, mass ignorance and a little office politics.... I was the Duty Lt on the Night shift at a Light Max prison in Md,getting ready to wrap up after an uneventful shift. I was notified the Security Chief wanted to see me after I was relieved on post. I made my way to his office in the Admin area of the prison, and was waved in immediately. I knew then that whatever it was, I wasn't in trouble. If I was, I'd have been kept waiting.As it was, I knew I wasn't going home right then.... The Chief got right to the point. A female rookie had flunked the shotgun part of the firearms training, and had filed charges against the State, her instructor and the Administration, saying that she had been persecuted and harassed, thus causing her to flunk the shotgun course. Her scores with Mini 14 and Model 64 revolver were marginal. She passed, but not by much on courses I regarded as way too easy. The Chief was joined at this point by the Training Officer, a decent sort who was no firearms authority but a good trainer. The TO advised me that this rookie had "Slipped and fallen" on her first day at the Academy, tried to convince the State Doc she was permanently disabled thereby, and seemed more into getovers than work. She had written up her instructor as sexually harassing her, had claimed that many women of her race had been rejected due to bigotry among the instructors, and was shaping up as a first class problem child. One of the things she had claimed was that she had been persecuted after rejecting her shotgun instructor's advances by being given a shotgun way too heavy to lift.Of course, how she could be expected to control inmates when a shotgun was more than she could bear was not brought up by her. I saw an approach open up. After giving my ideas to the Chief and TO, I borrowed a ten lb capacity scale from the mail room and took it to the armory. I weighed 6 shotguns with it, all 18" bbled 870s, including the two training shotguns that had been used the day on the range she had flunked. Weights ran from 6 lbs, 10 oz, to about 7 lbs 3 oz,IIRC. I returned to the Chief's office, gave him a short written report, and we planned this out. Around 8 AM the rookie reported for "Remedial" firearms training. She had an obvious attitude walking in the door. She also brought along a union rep I knew, and wished I didn't. He was slime, a bottomfeeder. They started in on the harassment, and the Chief said that she would be given an opportunity to redo the shotgun portion of firearms training, using the Senior Instructor(ME!) and she would be given the lightest shotgun we had to see if that corrected the problem.Also, the TO would be personally supervising the qualification process. So we went to the range and along with the usual range equipment, we took one of the video cameras we kept for documenting incidents, two blank cassette tapes and a pair of hot batteries..... We went to the range and every thing we did, from the classroom portion to the actual shooting was taped. She had been given the lightest 870 in the armory, got intensive one on one training in how to handle it, proper form,and so on. And there was no sabotage, she got as good training as one would find in a police style entry level course. Then, the fun started..... While being taped, I shot the course for demonstration. Then, happily, a female Instructor from the Women's Institution showed up and was pressed into service. Sgt Parks(Now with the Federal Marshalls) was smaller than the oxlike rookie, had never fired a shotgun before starting with the state, and was one darn good competitor at trap and 3 gun.She fired also. Our scores were well up over 90%. All this was taped. And Sgt Parks stuck around to lend a hand and to also score the targets. SO, it was our rookie's turn. Like many folks who know no better,she tilted back to try to counterbalance the weight of the shotgun, and I had her lean into it like we all should.I took her through the practice round, and she kept trying to lean back. By state rules, no help and /or instruction can be given during the actual firing for score, so as soon as she was ready, she had to fire all by herself. During this, the union rep had stuck around to "See Justice done". Did I mention it was a sweltering summer day? As I wiped the sweat from my brow, I was comforted to see him and the rookie sweating even more than I. Hammer time: Even after firing 10 light trap loads, another ten 00 for familiarization, the 10 rounds of Winchester 00 shot for score rocked her. Of course, she had forgotten to lean into the shot after the first round, the butt migrated from her shoulder cup to her upper arm,and when it got back to her shoulder part of the pad stuck up over her shoulder,thus the recoil was concentrated in the smaller area in contact. Couldn't help wincing a little myself, tho I kept a professional demeanor. After the dust settled, it was scoring time. All rookies needed to pass with a score of at least 70%, which meant 63 hits out of 90 pellets fired. Her score was in the 30s. Ray Charles,with proper training, could have beaten that. At this point, the TO asked her(While filming) if she wanted to try again. Her response,"$%^&,NO!!. Her rep, by this time completely sweating through his cheap wool suit pants, said they had to confer and they went aside. We returned to the Institution, and the TO passed the word up the Chain of Command that the rookie had failed the shotgun portion. As per procedures, she was called into the Warden's office and terninated forthwith.Meanwhile, I had been ordered to prepare and submit a comprehensive written report of all this. Some comments.... One,COF was 5 rounds from the 15 yards line at a tombstone type target, 5 more from the 25. The exercise started with a "Cruiser Ready" shotgun, empty chamber, full mag, action locked shut, safety on. After the four rounds in the mag were shot, the slide was kept to the rear, the 5th round "Combat Loaded" through the ejection port. Typical Rookie scores on this were about 75-80%. Two,if she had put the same effort into learning the weapon and getting with the training,she'd have passed and still had a job. Instant Karma, in this case. Three, any training done should be documented in some way. Those of us that get training should hang onto those certificates and score sheets. Those of us that give training should keep a copy of everything. Questions, comments? Last edited by Dave McC; June 28, 2001 at 03:19 PM.*

June 28, 2001, 12:08 PM	#4
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	The best defense against suits of this sort is documentation and procedure. You had that right down. Good job. If you taped her actual firing for qualification, you can show that she did not do the things she had just been instructed on, like leaning into the gun and getting proper placement of the stock on her shoulder. I guess they figured out that they didn't have a leg to stand on. IMHO a video camera is a great training tool. I have sen folks analyze their golf swing with one, and I have used them in industrial situations to refine machine setups. I'll bet that all of us could learn something if we watched a tape of ourselves shooting. __________________ "As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms." -- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss

June 28, 2001, 01:06 PM	#5
Ledbetter Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2000 Location: California USA Posts: 4,533	Greetings Tale well told. Deed well done.

June 28, 2001, 03:53 PM	#7
Herr Walther Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: A Place Worse than California Posts: 782	I think my momma delivered me with a shotgun in my hands. I sometimes take it for granted that not everyone shoots or has shot one of these as much as others have. Good documentation on the whiners training. I think her lousey attitude is what failed her more than anything. There are some, like those who join the military, that are not receptive or responsive to training. __________________ "It was people who upheld their duties to their office, the constitution, and the public by opposing Hitler who were called traitors" ------------------------------------- "...a historian asked what had happened to the German people for them to accept a criminal government. Unfortunately, nothing needed to happen. In nations across the world people accept government crime." ------------------------------------- "In democracies as well as dictatorships, subordinates illegally obey their rulers. Subordinates who remain true to their oaths of office by opposing their rulers are rare."

June 28, 2001, 03:54 PM	#8
Nanaimo Barr Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: North Idaho Posts: 1,024	I am damn glad I don't have to put up with people like that! (when I was a Military Instructor, they couldn't pull crap like that, we just failed them) and the video taping is a very good idea.. my wife suddenly started shooting low and left with her SA's and I couldn't see what was wrong (I am NOT a firearms instructor!!), dug out the cam-corder, set it up, put through some rounds, went home, reviewed the tape, there was the problem clear as day (bad grip on the pistols that I couldn't see from behind and to the side) I strongly recomend getting together with some friends and doing some taping, you might be amazed and pleased at what you see NB __________________ "Question that Regulation, you might be suprised to find out it's Illegal"

June 28, 2001, 10:09 AM	#2
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	Let me get this straight, the course of fire was only 10 rounds and she flunked it? The only lack of justice here was that she wasn't terminated sooner... M1911

June 28, 2001, 11:21 AM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	"Her score was in the 30s. Ray Charles,with proper training, could have beaten that. " One spewed keyboard. Documentation and witnesses are a must. Tis a shame you had to jump through so many hoops to get rid of the inept. Well done. Sam

June 28, 2001, 03:38 PM	#6
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, Guys. M1911-The course bit it badly. Sad to say,it's probably closer to typical than one would like to think. Most Police and COs do not shoot shotguns recreationally, at least in this area. If one likes to shoot, and does on occasion, they're guaranteed to be more effective than their peers who don't. Most of the hunters we had there could 90% that course w/o busting a sweat.Everybody else had to work just to qualify. Sorry about the keyboard,Sam,I deny wrongdoing(G). This one was comparatively easy, some we had to put up with for years,even decades. But, like a septic tank, the scum went to where they skimmed themselves.Occasionally one would stop coming in, they had PO'd enough good officers that they stood a better chance in the prison than in the officer's parking lot. As for staffing, from Day One in 77 to Day last in 97, I worked short and with half___es. Given a choice, I'd have worked shorter. David S, a video camera in the right place is a really fine tool to have.I may get Son to tape me trapshooting.

June 29, 2001, 07:28 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Herr Walther, I've no footage of my Mom taking the Md Small Bore championships in 1943, but among the old family home movies we have converted to video, we have a couple of tapes of her practicing. And, warped boards pull their own nails. Glad we got rid of her before it cost us time and trouble. And a bad CO is plenty of trouble on the best of days, and the critical factor on the worst. N Barr, Corrections has always had a quality prob with personnel. The media do not help. When was the last time you saw a CO portrayed positively on TV or the movies?Usually,we're depicted as sadistic,brutal, corrupt, racist thugs little different than the scum we guard. I was a good cop in a very,very bad 'hood.No gun, no cruiser, backup of indefinite quality and oft supervision to match.At least one Shift Commander I bumped heads with was as big a crook as anything we had in the cells. PF, I think she realized it was a lost cause.

June 29, 2001, 09:35 AM	#11
Monkeyleg Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2000 Posts: 4,625	Dave McC, this question is only marginally related to this thread. A former classmate of mine was arrested along with others in a cocaine-dealing operation years back. From what I recall, she was convicted. Now I find out she's working as a guard in a womens' prison down in AZ. Is that possible legally? I know she could never be on any police force I know of, but I don't know the ins and outs of corrections. __________________ ACOG Scopes, EOTech Sights, Crimson Trace, LensAndLasers

June 29, 2001, 10:30 AM	#12
Nanaimo Barr Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: North Idaho Posts: 1,024	Dave, I ment no disrespect of CO's.. I was refering to the "candidate", not to any of the CO's, my brother in law is a CO in Canada (and if you think it's bad here....)and your point is well taken, take a look at my sig line.... NB __________________ "Question that Regulation, you might be suprised to find out it's Illegal"

June 29, 2001, 10:32 AM	#13
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I've no experience in AZ Corrections, but if she's a convicted felon, not here in Md. Of course, she may have only gotten a misdemeanor. And, she may have had the conviction set aside, especially if she gave everyone else up. If she rolled over, she may have walked.... Or, the background check didn't pick it up. We had a female officer who had several juvenile arrests/convictions for prostitution. She was able to keep her job because she had a clean adult record. Your classmate probably is doing exactly what she did to get arrested again. Officer corruption is quite a problem,just like the police anywhere.

June 29, 2001, 12:34 PM	#14
AC's & 45's Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2000 Location: Mid, Mo Posts: 403	Her response,"$%^&*,NO!! Would you care to translate that please? Funny how some people change their tune when they seal their own fate like that. __________________ Common sense is not something you can aquire. You must be born with it. So, you either have it or you don't!

June 29, 2001, 12:57 PM	#15
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	N Barr, no offense taken. Sorry, one of my buttons got pushed. In fact, NO positive images exist of any CO in the contemporary world. We're the stepchildren of the LE world. AC, it wasn't the language, it was the sentiment. We're used to all the bad words, the average CO hears(and oft uses) more scatology,obscenity and trash than DIs. Even after 3 years of retirement, I have to remind myself that "Mother" is not half a word when I'm tired or irritated.... A note on rookies and shotguns.... I had my PAST wearable pad for a couple of years before I left training. In extreme cases, mostly of small and oft female officers,I'd offer it, along with a tricked/tweaked personal 870, for the remedial and familiarity rounds. Naturally, they had to qualify with Issue weapons. Even tiny little pixies could wear that pad, with adjustments, and use a 9 lb plus 870,getting good results, IF THEY WERE MOTIVATED AND WILLING TO WORK.The key's right there.... One male officer was 4'10", not fat, and managed to qualify with all three weapons to 85% or so. I wish all candidates had the willingness and heart he did. Finally, myself and many other instructors will swear on Bibles that women, by and large, make better firearm students. Better eye/hand co-ordination(Tho mixed dominance is much more common among females),better at working together, and less to unlearn. Never had a female pull that Wesley Snipes action movie "tilt the gun on its side" %^&*, but plenty of macho types did.

June 29, 2001, 01:59 PM	#16
mjcitra Member Join Date: December 6, 2000 Posts: 39	15 yards at a tombstone like target and then 25 yards?? Thats pretty close, how the hell can one miss so badly. Any decent shotgun hunter would ace that.

June 29, 2001, 02:52 PM	#17
Nanaimo Barr Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: North Idaho Posts: 1,024	Dave, funny you should mention about women being better students, I've taught women in the (Canadian) Military, and found them to be good students and quick study's, (not to mention my wife, 5 minutes after I showed her how to hold and squeeze she was out shooting me), but I have heard the same from several instructors. kinda puts the Gub Grabbers stated oppinion that women are too stupid to use firearms to shame... __________________ "Question that Regulation, you might be suprised to find out it's Illegal"

June 29, 2001, 03:21 PM	#18
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Mjcitra,the key word there was hunter. Sometimes we forget how intimidating shooting a shotgun can be if one's a non shooter to that point. All the stories about kick, seeing someone shoot with bad form and visibly show their pain, etc, conspire to convince the rookie that whatever happens, pain and misery will result. But, when a first shotgun comes to many a kid as a X-mas or B-day present, and they learn to use it at an early age, it conditions them to regard it as a common part of life, and no more remarkable than a P/U truck. A shotgun behind the kitchen door where I grew up was practically universal in the area, then rural. That course is common, BTW, and not limited to Corrections. You might want to try it yourself and see how you compare.My guess is, considering the sort of people that frequent Shotgun BBs, you'd have no problem scoring over 90%. FYI, when I was hired in 77, my initial qualifier with the shotgun consisted of firing off a few rounds at rats on the prison dump. It has gotten better, and has a long way to go,IMO. Right you are, N Barr. Women make much better students. Wonderful Wife calls the reason "Testosterone Poisoning". Dunno if I agree, but there must be something to it(G)...