|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 14, 2013, 01:58 PM | #51 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 2,378
|
Walt I'm not a metallurgist or a spring guru, but compressing springs linearly against themselves should extend their usable life. Additionally, if you have a fte or Ftf how do you know if the spring/guide rod is a contributing factor or not? Pretty tough to say, many argue that jmb didn't use or that they are not used in countless military firearms w/o issue, I do not dispute that, but for the countless others that do have reliability issues that go unexplained or unresolved how do you know this is not a contributing factor? I simple remove it from the equation.
|
January 14, 2013, 03:30 PM | #52 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2010
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,016
|
1stmar wrote
Quote:
My bet...is that it didn't.
__________________
NRA Life Member USN Retired |
|
January 14, 2013, 05:01 PM | #53 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 6,348
|
Quote:
I added the underlining, below. Quote:
I agree that claiming "JMB didn't do it" is not a convincing argument. But, a contrary argument that you should do something without fact-based justification is not convincing, either. In answer to your "how do you know" question, I'd say, you don't know. The only way to properly answer that question is to use a single recoil spring in one gun until you have a consistent FTF or FTE problem and switch to the other style of guide rod to see if that fixes the problem. But, to be really sure, you'll have to repeat that test several times, to know you've got predictable results. The fact that a gun problem is unresolved is not evidence that something not done -- using particular type of guide rode -- is going to be a part of the solution. If the problem is unresolved it really just means that a sufficiently competent gun "mechanic" (gunsmith) hasn't dealt with the problem. . Last edited by Walt Sherrill; January 14, 2013 at 08:51 PM. |
||
January 14, 2013, 09:48 PM | #54 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 11, 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 808
|
The FLGR hardly adds enough weight to notice while preventing press checks and over complicating break down.
|
January 15, 2013, 10:51 AM | #55 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 4,862
|
Quote:
|
|
January 15, 2013, 11:02 PM | #56 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,566
|
It adds a little weight up front otherwise nothing. The tungsten rods add enough to matter, probably 3 oz.
|
January 15, 2013, 11:23 PM | #57 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
One thing the FLGR did was to give us the various firing pin block gadgets with all their problems.
A standard 1911 is almost impossible to make fire by dropping or driving it on the muzzle. The reason is that the slide moves backward, cushioning the blow so the firing pin inertia is absorbed and the firing pin won't creep forward and fire the gun. (The California tests are not real world - they are rigged to ban as many guns as possible.) Those who have an interest in WWII pistols might have noticed that the Polish Radom has a two piece guide rod. The original design was for a one piece FLGR. But in testing, they found that the gun would fire if dropped on the muzzle, so they made the guide rod two piece to absorb the impact and prevent accidental firing. Jim |
January 16, 2013, 11:10 AM | #58 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 1999
Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Posts: 6,348
|
Quote:
|
|
January 16, 2013, 11:36 AM | #59 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
"One thing the FLGR did was to give us the various firing pin block gadgets with all their problems."
The Swartz was invented in !939,do you have references to that benighted guide rod prior to that? |
January 17, 2013, 12:38 AM | #60 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
The guns that switched did so because the CA testing was much more stringent that a simple drop test from a few feet. IIRC the gun is placed in an arm that slams it down on a steel plate, equivalent to being dropped from a three story building.
Yes, the Swartz safety pre-dates the FLGR, but it was never installed on military contract pistols and was dropped after WWII because it was considered unnecessary. It is my understanding, which may be wrong, that the Swartz safety was not to prevent firing pin creep if the gun was dropped on the muzzle, but to prevent accidental firing if a cocked or half-cocked gun was dropped on the hammer hard enough to break out the hammer notches and drive the hammer onto the firing pin. Jim |
January 17, 2013, 08:01 AM | #61 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
Whether the pistol falls on its hammer or its muzzle the Swartz prevents
firing pin travel unless the trigger is depressed.I think both the FL guide rod and the Swartz block are unnecessary encumbrances I just don't see how one brought about the other and that includes the series 80. |
January 18, 2013, 05:58 AM | #62 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 666
|
Up Close
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck Last edited by 1911Tuner; January 18, 2013 at 07:16 AM. |
||||
January 18, 2013, 06:07 AM | #63 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 22, 2012
Posts: 1,031
|
We can argue till the thread is locked, but literally hundreds of thousands of reliable and match-grade accurate 1911s are out there without a FLGR, including a handful I've owned in 45 and 38.
Not buying the hype. Not to say that I wouldn't buy a 1911 with a FLGR--I just don't see the point except making it a PITA to field strip. |
January 18, 2013, 07:27 AM | #64 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
Re:Up close
Yes of course the Swartz works through the grip safety but unless you depress
the safety you can't pull the trigger,right? My poor eyes deceive that's for sure,here's what I see Mr. Tuner,a)the horizontal ribs are still fully engaged.there's daylight at the rear and top but not at the front.b)the barrel is fully tilted downward and no part of it seems to protrude from the slide.c)the barrel link seems to be perpendicular to the barrel.What I don't see is where the barrel hood is no longer in contact with the breech face.I know less about 1911's than you've forgotten and I don't think you've forgot much but I called this one as I saw it. |
January 18, 2013, 07:39 AM | #65 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 666
|
re:
Quote:
Quote:
And the upper barrel lugs never bear against the tops of the lug recesses in the slide. Quote:
Much to learn you have, young grasshopper. Teach you I will...but first you must accept that many of your beliefs are mistaken.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck |
|||
January 18, 2013, 07:59 AM | #66 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
OK Master Po Tuner
|
January 18, 2013, 08:26 AM | #67 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 666
|
Snark
Quote:
Do carry on.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck |
|
January 18, 2013, 11:57 AM | #68 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
No snide remark intended,simply following the line plot.
That barrel sure looks tilted downward toward the front,the amount of daylight between barrel and frame seems to decrease as you go back,also of interest is how little contact there is between follower and round it seems to have almost no effect on how the cartridges line up which leads me to believe that the guide lips are the main factor in the proper magazine function. |
January 18, 2013, 08:50 PM | #69 |
Member In Memoriam
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
|
In the 1911 when the gun is at rest, the barrel is pointed down within the slide. But the sights are almost parallel with the top of the slide. As the bullet begins to move forward, the barrel begins to move back and down so by the time the bullet exits, the back of the barrel has dropped enough that the barrel is pointing (hopefully) to the same place as the sights.
Since barrel exit time depends on bullet velocity, the gun will be sighted for only one load (for the GI 1911, that is for the GI load) and any other load will shoot higher or lower. That is the advantage of adjustable sights if one wishes to fire any gun with more than one load. Jim |
January 19, 2013, 04:56 AM | #70 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 666
|
Snark?
Quote:
Let's proceed. First, a quick primer on recoil. Newton 3 states that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. This is Newton's Law...not Newton's Theory. Push on an object and you immediately get pushed away from that object by the force vector that exists between you. If that force is sufficient to set both objects in motion, then both will move at the same instant. They don't have a choice. Recoil is nothing more than the reaction side of an action/reaction event. A result of force forward/force backward. An action/reaction system requires three things. Two interacting objects and a compelling force between them. Remove any one of those components, and you can't have an action/reaction event. Once the bullet has left, the action side of the system is gone, and the compelling force with it. If there is no action, there can be no reaction. If there is no force, there can be no acceleration, and hence no movement. i.e. If the slide hasn't moved until after the bullet exits, the slide won't move. Kuhnhausen's "Balanced Thrust/Force Vector" description was well written, nicely illustrated, and interesting...and utterly wrong. Here is the description of the firing/recoil cycle. To simplify it, we'll assume a condition of zero headspace and proper barrel linkdown timing. Bang! The bullet and slide start to move at the same instant. Due to the slide/barrel assembly's greater mass, the bullet is accelerating some 33 times faster. The barrel is under a forward drag from the bullet's frictional contact. The rearward moving slide grabs it by the lugs and hauls it backward with it...against the resistance of that forward drag. Newton 3 again. Whatever resistance is imposed by friction in one direction, is imposed in the other direction in equal measure. Whatever force resists the barrel's rearward motion, resists the slide's rearward motion. The bullet exits at nominally 1/10th inch of slide/barrel movement. At the instant that the bullet base clears the muzzle the link just starts to tug on the barrel. The barrel has not dropped yet. The lugs are still fully engaged vertically. At .200 inch of slide travel, the upper barrel lugs are just clear of the slide's lugs, but the barrel is still moving rearward on its own momentum. The link is still pulling on it. At .250 inch of travel, the barrel is linked down as far as the link will bring it, and its rearward momentum is stopped by the vertical impact surface. (VIS) If all is within spec, there is .003 inch of clearance between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the frame bed...and the barrel free-falls to the bed by gravity. If all is within spec, and the linkdown timing is right, there is .012-.015 inch of clearance between the top of the barrel and the underside of the slide's first lug. NOW...you'll start to see the barrel protrude from the front of the slide. The slide continues rearward via the momentum that it conserved during the acceleration phase...while the bullet was still present. You can see the point of full linkdown/barrel impact on the VIS by simply pushing the muzzle straight back until it stops. (Cock the hammer first.) Cycling it manually on the bench, you'll see a little barrel drop almost immediately because the lower lug is angled slightly, and gravity will pull it down as soon as the lug moves off the slidestop pin...but that won't happen during firing because the upper lugs are horizontally engaged in opposition under force. You can see how that works by using a tight-fitting plug in the barrel...such as an oversized cleaning patch on a rod...and pulling forward on the barrel while you have someone move the slide slowly. The barrel won't start to drop until the link has swung far enough...or about .100 inch...and will continue to drop until it contacts the VIS. In the photo, the slide appears to have moved about .075 inch...so the barrel couldn't have tilted at the rear.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck Last edited by 1911Tuner; January 19, 2013 at 07:45 AM. |
|
January 19, 2013, 05:13 AM | #71 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 666
|
Lips
Quote:
Before the slide has moved rearward past the magazine, there is no contact between the top round and the feed lips. The center rail is pressing down on the top round. When the slide uncovers the magwell, the top round moves up into position...above the bottom line of that center rail. If it didn't, the slide would ride over the top round and never pick it up. That's why you feel spring resistance when locking in a magazine with the slide forward. We'll address that a little later, with photos that illustrate the two basic different feed lip designs and how they affect the angle of entry. Might be better on a separate thread since this one has kinda gone wide of the mark.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck |
|
January 19, 2013, 08:05 AM | #72 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 24, 2012
Posts: 1,055
|
A tour de force (that ok?)a lot to digest,thank you again for taking the time.
Actual barrel slide separation takes place fractions of a second after rearward movement of both,this is the critical point.A more thorough reading of the post is needed,probably more than one.As to the round geometry in the magazine this one requires spatial thinking to understand sort of like the disconnector function.I digress,much obliged. |
January 19, 2013, 08:57 AM | #73 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 666
|
re:
Quote:
While the lugs are still vertically engaged, the slide and barrel can't separate. Which incidentally, is why the pistol can't fire far enough out of battery to kaboom. At .100 inch out, the hammer can't reach the firing pin...so even if it could fire that far out...the lugs are still engaged and the breech can't open.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck Last edited by 1911Tuner; January 19, 2013 at 09:05 AM. |
|
January 19, 2013, 10:31 AM | #74 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Posts: 857
|
Tuner - I love your posts because they are clear and concise in your explanations - and I alway learn a lot.
My only question about FLGR is, why do some gunsmiths use them for their 1911's? I have a custom 1911 built by Bob Marvel, whom I would assume knows as much about 1911's as anyone, and Bob uses a FLGR. At the cost of his builds, it makes no sense that it was used only to "increase the cost," as is often touted as the reason behind using them. If you look at the cost of the FLGR versus GI guide rod - the cost difference is inconsequential in the overall price of the gun. When Bob built the pistol, I told him to do whatever he wanted, and to build it the way he thought best. When I received it from Bob, I have to say, I was surprised that it came with a FLGR - but, there it was. The gun is exceptionally accurate. The two test targets are from 50 yards and the 10 shot groups are <1.4 inches - but, I would assume that could be done with or without the use of a FLGR. Do you have any thoughts on why the FLGR was used? Personal build style? Aesthetics? Performance reason? Or...? |
January 19, 2013, 11:58 AM | #75 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 666
|
re:
Quote:
The FLGR is inert. It doesn't move, and it doesn't do anything that the standard length guide rod doesn't do just as well. It neither enhances nor degrades the accuracy or reliability of a 1911 pistol, other than making field-stripping a little more trouble. So, it again raises the question: "What is it for?" The only answer that I can come up with is: "To sell."
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck |
|
|
|