P3AT failure to eject

will99 · October 2, 2013, 09:37 AM

I've made up at least a half dozen loads for my Keltec .380 and have always had good results feeding and ejecting until yesterday. My load is a 100 gr Berry's plated bullet with 2.9 gr Titegroup. This load is hot, maybe too hot. I had numerous fte's. Does this happen more often with hot loads? My thought was that weak loads would be more likely to not eject. Brought the gun home and cleaned it well, removing the extractor and touching up the claw with an emery board. Tried to bend extractor spring slightly to give it more tension. One more thought: my cases had been fired numerous times. Could the claw be gripping a place on the rim that was chewed up? Anyone have this problem with a small autoloader?

spacecoast · October 2, 2013, 12:13 PM

I have found that my LCP tends to chew up the rim of my .380 brass pretty badly.

2.9 grains of Titegroup is within the upper and lower limits suggested by Hodgdon, so it should be OK and not especially hot. The P3AT and its clone (the LCP) are both fairly tough to hang on to when it comes to recoil.

If you've had good luck with other loads, you might want to stick with them.

will99 · October 2, 2013, 02:37 PM

A 2.9 charge of Titegroup with a 100 gr Berry's plated is pretty hot. Don't have a chart right here but that's what I recall. Usually only practice with light loads and then not too ofter. This pocket gun has to be reliable.

will99 · October 4, 2013, 01:21 PM

Had a chance to run three more loads through the P3AT, one of which was my SD load: 90gr Hornady FTX over 3.2gr of Titegroup. I had no failures to extract. I have concluded that the 100 gr Berry's was too much for the 2.9 charge of Titegroup since a plated bullet should be treated like a cast bullet and take a lower charge. My pressure was too high causing the case to stick. With the 90gr FTX seated long at about .960 there are no pressure concerns. It also penetrated 3 1/2 inches of lumber at close range. Doubt if it opened though.

bt380 · October 4, 2013, 10:23 PM

What's the possibility that the Berry's bullet as the problem source for your gun as Berry's diameter .356." Lyman 49th, p338, 340 speak to the new industry standard using .355." Because of chamber restrictions, they don't recommend larger than .355." The assumption is, they mean ie fmj, etc, not lead or plated lead for that .355" number. But if the barrel tolerance for your gun is a bit snug, who knows. Another person might have the same gun that shoots it ok. Just never know w/ lighter caliber auto's. Just punting here for another thought.
-
Here is a string for Berry's (in 9mm), but some of the comments may apply.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438485
-
Berrry doesn't have a lot of load data:
http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q21-c1-...d_Bullets.aspx
ie: Other than the data from Western and Accurate for the 9mm, .40S&W and Hodgdon .40S&W there is no printed data available.

JustSomeGuy · October 5, 2013, 02:48 AM

I think you are correct to assume that with the 100grn bullet, and its longer length as well as the pressure it can induce over a longer period, your gun is not getting the correct recoil impulse to operate correctly. It is a blowback operated pistol and needs to operate in a very limited pressure range in the chamber for that to work. As you have other loads that DO work, I would stick with those and either find a different powder with a different pressure curve to try with the 100grn bullet, or just forget those bullets and go with what works.

spacecoast · October 5, 2013, 06:03 AM

For some reason both Berry's and Rainier only offer a 100 gr. plated bullet, it would be nice if they offered a 90 or 95 gr. option.

I shoot the plated 100 gr. Berry's through both of my small .380s, but with lighter loads (usually 3 grains of AA#2).

bkhann · October 12, 2013, 08:13 AM

I am successfully using the following load through my P3AT:

Barry's 100 gr RNHB
3.8 gr Power Pistol
COL: 0.94:
755.9 fps

We were looking for a load that would mimic some self defense loads that we carry. The above load works flawlessly, but early on, my P3AT was returned to KelTec due to reliability issues, and they worked their magic on it. It seems that many P3AT's do not work well out of the box. Since KelTec fixed mine, it has not missed a beat. Probably the only issue (observation) on the re-worked P3AT is that when brass is ejected, only about 1/2 of it is ever found. I don't know where the shells are being ejected to (Ionosphere?), but they are gone!.

If your P3AT is not reliability eating factory ammo, I would sent it to KelTec and have them go through the gun. I think that this is a more reliable solution than the "fluff and buff" that people have done to their P3AT's.

Best of luck!

LE-28 · October 12, 2013, 01:16 PM

Limp wristing will cause your P3AT to not eject reliably also. It certainly does it on my PF9. They are small and hard to hang onto which makes the problem worse. Even if you aren't letting the gun recoil upwards it still does in your hand and takes momentum away from the slide.

2.9 of Titegroup is under Hodgdon's max load by 1 tenth, but over Lyman's max load by 1 tenth for 100 gr bullets. Unless you are trying to load +p loads.

I went to a slower burning powder in my subcompacts and they are a lot more reliable.

bkhann's load is more along the lines of what I'm trying to get at. Universal and Power Pistol work better for me as far as feeding and cycling goes in my sub-compacts. It's hard to keep those little pistols from moving in your hands, my hands are to big for them and I can't hold them still after they fire. Going to the slower powder seems to have helped me a lot.

clemsonal · October 12, 2013, 01:45 PM

Post 6 describes the P3AT as a blow back design. That is incorrect. It is a locked breach pistol.

bt380 · October 12, 2013, 07:24 PM

Hodgdon 2013 Annual Manual p153 and their web site list titegroup 100 gr hdy fmj start of 2.6, max 3.0 col .980. Hornady 9th 100gr fmj rn titegroup start 2.3, max 3.0 col .980. Lymans 49th doesn't list a 100gr 380 round.
Berrys site: http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q21-c1-...d_Bullets.aspx
We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data.
For further questions you can email [email protected]

October 2, 2013, 09:37 AM	#1
will99 Member Join Date: June 13, 2009 Location: western NC Posts: 44	P3AT failure to eject I've made up at least a half dozen loads for my Keltec .380 and have always had good results feeding and ejecting until yesterday. My load is a 100 gr Berry's plated bullet with 2.9 gr Titegroup. This load is hot, maybe too hot. I had numerous fte's. Does this happen more often with hot loads? My thought was that weak loads would be more likely to not eject. Brought the gun home and cleaned it well, removing the extractor and touching up the claw with an emery board. Tried to bend extractor spring slightly to give it more tension. One more thought: my cases had been fired numerous times. Could the claw be gripping a place on the rim that was chewed up? Anyone have this problem with a small autoloader?

October 4, 2013, 10:23 PM	#5
bt380 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Posts: 331	What's the possibility that the Berry's bullet as the problem source for your gun as Berry's diameter .356." Lyman 49th, p338, 340 speak to the new industry standard using .355." Because of chamber restrictions, they don't recommend larger than .355." The assumption is, they mean ie fmj, etc, not lead or plated lead for that .355" number. But if the barrel tolerance for your gun is a bit snug, who knows. Another person might have the same gun that shoots it ok. Just never know w/ lighter caliber auto's. Just punting here for another thought. - Here is a string for Berry's (in 9mm), but some of the comments may apply. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438485 - Berrry doesn't have a lot of load data: http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q21-c1-...d_Bullets.aspx ie: Other than the data from Western and Accurate for the 9mm, .40S&W and Hodgdon .40S&W there is no printed data available. Last edited by bt380; October 4, 2013 at 10:29 PM.

October 5, 2013, 02:48 AM	#6
JustSomeGuy Member Join Date: October 2, 2013 Location: Oregon Posts: 49	I think you are correct to assume that with the 100grn bullet, and its longer length as well as the pressure it can induce over a longer period, your gun is not getting the correct recoil impulse to operate correctly. It is a blowback operated pistol and needs to operate in a very limited pressure range in the chamber for that to work. As you have other loads that DO work, I would stick with those and either find a different powder with a different pressure curve to try with the 100grn bullet, or just forget those bullets and go with what works. __________________ I, Procrastitron will destroy evil.... eventually.

October 12, 2013, 01:45 PM	#10
clemsonal Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: South Carolina Posts: 30	Blow back ????? Post 6 describes the P3AT as a blow back design. That is incorrect. It is a locked breach pistol.

October 2, 2013, 12:13 PM	#2
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	I have found that my LCP tends to chew up the rim of my .380 brass pretty badly. 2.9 grains of Titegroup is within the upper and lower limits suggested by Hodgdon, so it should be OK and not especially hot. The P3AT and its clone (the LCP) are both fairly tough to hang on to when it comes to recoil. If you've had good luck with other loads, you might want to stick with them.

October 2, 2013, 02:37 PM	#3
will99 Member Join Date: June 13, 2009 Location: western NC Posts: 44	A 2.9 charge of Titegroup with a 100 gr Berry's plated is pretty hot. Don't have a chart right here but that's what I recall. Usually only practice with light loads and then not too ofter. This pocket gun has to be reliable.

October 4, 2013, 01:21 PM	#4
will99 Member Join Date: June 13, 2009 Location: western NC Posts: 44	Had a chance to run three more loads through the P3AT, one of which was my SD load: 90gr Hornady FTX over 3.2gr of Titegroup. I had no failures to extract. I have concluded that the 100 gr Berry's was too much for the 2.9 charge of Titegroup since a plated bullet should be treated like a cast bullet and take a lower charge. My pressure was too high causing the case to stick. With the 90gr FTX seated long at about .960 there are no pressure concerns. It also penetrated 3 1/2 inches of lumber at close range. Doubt if it opened though.

October 5, 2013, 06:03 AM	#7
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	For some reason both Berry's and Rainier only offer a 100 gr. plated bullet, it would be nice if they offered a 90 or 95 gr. option. I shoot the plated 100 gr. Berry's through both of my small .380s, but with lighter loads (usually 3 grains of AA#2).

October 12, 2013, 08:13 AM	#8
bkhann Member Join Date: August 5, 2009 Location: Grand Rapids MI Posts: 98	I am successfully using the following load through my P3AT: Barry's 100 gr RNHB 3.8 gr Power Pistol COL: 0.94: 755.9 fps We were looking for a load that would mimic some self defense loads that we carry. The above load works flawlessly, but early on, my P3AT was returned to KelTec due to reliability issues, and they worked their magic on it. It seems that many P3AT's do not work well out of the box. Since KelTec fixed mine, it has not missed a beat. Probably the only issue (observation) on the re-worked P3AT is that when brass is ejected, only about 1/2 of it is ever found. I don't know where the shells are being ejected to (Ionosphere?), but they are gone!. If your P3AT is not reliability eating factory ammo, I would sent it to KelTec and have them go through the gun. I think that this is a more reliable solution than the "fluff and buff" that people have done to their P3AT's. Best of luck!

October 12, 2013, 01:16 PM	#9
LE-28 Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 759	Limp wristing will cause your P3AT to not eject reliably also. It certainly does it on my PF9. They are small and hard to hang onto which makes the problem worse. Even if you aren't letting the gun recoil upwards it still does in your hand and takes momentum away from the slide. 2.9 of Titegroup is under Hodgdon's max load by 1 tenth, but over Lyman's max load by 1 tenth for 100 gr bullets. Unless you are trying to load +p loads. I went to a slower burning powder in my subcompacts and they are a lot more reliable. bkhann's load is more along the lines of what I'm trying to get at. Universal and Power Pistol work better for me as far as feeding and cycling goes in my sub-compacts. It's hard to keep those little pistols from moving in your hands, my hands are to big for them and I can't hold them still after they fire. Going to the slower powder seems to have helped me a lot.

October 12, 2013, 07:24 PM	#11
bt380 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Posts: 331	Hodgdon 2013 Annual Manual p153 and their web site list titegroup 100 gr hdy fmj start of 2.6, max 3.0 col .980. Hornady 9th 100gr fmj rn titegroup start 2.3, max 3.0 col .980. Lymans 49th doesn't list a 100gr 380 round. Berrys site: http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q21-c1-...d_Bullets.aspx We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data. For further questions you can email [email protected]