Odd .38 spec reloading question?

rnovi · December 6, 2006, 02:40 AM

Hey all,

I've been reloading some of the same .38 special brass for so long (20+ times) that the brass has developed a "ring" near the rim. It looks kinda like a very, very small "bulge" of sorts. Not a bulge per-say, but almost like the brass has expanded in a 1/100" ring...so, call it a bulge for lack of a better term. I'm absolutely sure that this little bulge lines up with the star ejector on the cylinder.

Now on my .45acp revolver I don't get the bulge at the base all, regardless of how many reloads.

The difference is that the .45acp dies will fully (and I mean, 100%) resize the brass, thus eliminating any "ring bulge". .38 special/.357 mag dies (RCBS) don't appear to resize as fully as the .45acp dies.

Anyway, the reason this has become a problem is that some of the .38 spec brass is now getting just a bit sticky on insertion.

While one answer is to simply replace my brass, I'd much rather be able to fully (100%) resize the brass back to original spec.

So, anyone else out there notice this phenomena? Anyone got any viable solutions?

Crosshair · December 6, 2006, 04:05 AM

Have you tried to screw the die in farther? Dumb question, but you want that die as close to she shell holder without it actualy touching.

mega twin · December 6, 2006, 06:39 AM

A ring near the rim could be a sign the case is about to separate.After reloading the same cases that many times, I believe you should invest in some new brass. A case head failure is not a fun, or safe thing..38 brass is alot cheaper than trips to the Er.

BillCA · December 6, 2006, 07:11 AM

+1 on the incipient case head failure! Discard that brass.

Depending on how warm you load your cartridges, that could be a sign that your cases are about to fail. It doesn't take +P loads to cause this. The fact that you say you've reloaded the same cases 20 times tells me it's probably time to discard them and get some fresh(er) ones.

DO check you resizing die to see that it leaves about .004"-.006" between the die and the shell holder. You don't want it making contact as it can damage the die, but too high and there will be a small area left unsized. This can cause a reloaded case to not chamber or it can cause it to stick in the chamber after firing.

Years ago, the absolute best we were able to do with resizing .38 brass, before the case mouths split, was about 24 reloadings. This was reloading 148gr wadcutter (LHBWC) with match loads - not very stressful. Nickle cases would fail around 14-15 reloads as they were more brittle.

I've only seen 2 case head ruptures in a revolver in 30+ years of shooting, both with reloaded ammo. The first was merely a nusiance since it was in a S&W Model 28 with recessed chambers. The second required a hospital visit by the shooter when hot gas and bits of brass hit his shooting hand. It wasn't pretty.

Take some of that money you've saved by reloading and splurge on some virgin Starline brass. It'll be well worth the investment.

Rimrod · December 6, 2006, 11:14 AM

Since you mentioned the ring developed over time I would go with the incipient case head seperation too. Get rid of it.

The reason you aren't seeing it in your 45 brass is probably because they have thicker walls near the head.

rnovi · December 6, 2006, 11:35 AM

Good advice on ditching the old brass. For whatever reason the case-head separation just never popped into my head. I'll disect a few cases just for giggles, but I'll agree - let's put this brass on it's last legs and head it towards the trashcan.

As to the die/sizing plate? Yep, I've set it for minimum tolerances. No issues there.

As to the load: I'm using 3.0 gr. Clays and a 125gr bullet. Clocks at around 900fps out of my 6" gp100. I kid you not, there are .22's out there with more felt recoil!

**Mike Irwin** · December 6, 2006, 11:49 AM

I suspect that it's more likely caused by the loading dies and repeatedly loading and firing the case. I've seen rings like that on some of my .38 Spl. brass that has been loaded dozens of times.

The Real Wyatt · December 6, 2006, 11:32 PM

Discard that brass, it's showng signs of impending failure.

ConRich · December 6, 2006, 11:36 PM

It's time to scrap the brass BEFORE it fails.

epr105 · December 7, 2006, 12:40 AM

Th ebuldge is a sure sign of impending danger. Brass will not last forever and depending how hot you load it it can go bad faster. I had a bunch of .38 brass that you could have hade for a decent price. I had it up on the board for a few days and no one seemed to even comment on it. I just ended up bringing it to the scrap dealer. I got a good price but it still kills me to see once fired brass go into the melter

MADISON · December 7, 2006, 09:52 AM

That ring near the rim of your cases is normal.
It is caused by your using a CARBIDE SIZING DIE. The die can not/does not size far enough down to get that last 1/8th inch. If you used steel dies, they say you would not get that ring.

**Mike Irwin** · December 7, 2006, 12:13 PM

Yep, Madison is, as I noted before, right.

A incipient case failure due to headspace issues shows up as a bright ring of differently colored brass that can't be felt on the exterior of the case.

You can feel the separation ring on the INSIDE of the case if you either use a bent paperclip, or if you section the case.

An incipient case separation does not cause a bump on the exterior of the case.

Edward429451 · December 7, 2006, 01:14 PM

I've been seeing that ring on my 44 brass here n there. I sectioned some and did the paperclip thing also, and concluded that the ring you see is where the brass starts getting thicker towards the web of the case and cant be sized down as far as the side walls. I just keep reloading them and it hasn't been a problem.

But you have some sticky insertion? That could be a bullet issue. Changed bullets lately, or brass? I had sticky insertion in 38 when I tried using a gas checked bullet in 38+P brass. The brass starts getting thicker higher on the case sooner than on non +P brass and the GC was bulging it.

Double check your case spec's and consider what bullets you're using.

HTH's.

cheygriz · December 7, 2006, 07:35 PM

Get new brass if they are getting sticky.

But depending on the load, I have a lot of .38 special barss that has been loaded with light target wadcutter loads over 50 times. I do have a visible sizing ring near the rim, but the loaded cases "drop" into the cylinder without pushing.

OTOH, I have recently thrown out 500 cases that had been loaded only about a dozen times. But they were loaded to +P+ with jacketed bullets.

brickeyee · December 7, 2006, 07:48 PM

The 'coke bottle' look is common on straight wall pistol cases that have been reloaded a number of times.
A carbide sizing die cannot reach the very head of the case, and even steel dies have some relief for easier alignement.

The 'coke bottle' nomenclature comes from the appearance of a loaded round. Bigger at the bullet, small in the middle, bigger at the head where the die cannot reach.
It shows up faster with heavier loads, but eventually shows up even in bullsyes wadcutter loads. The lower pressure loads just need more repititions to expand the cse near the head.

December 6, 2006, 02:40 AM	#1
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	Odd .38 spec reloading question? Hey all, I've been reloading some of the same .38 special brass for so long (20+ times) that the brass has developed a "ring" near the rim. It looks kinda like a very, very small "bulge" of sorts. Not a bulge per-say, but almost like the brass has expanded in a 1/100" ring...so, call it a bulge for lack of a better term. I'm absolutely sure that this little bulge lines up with the star ejector on the cylinder. Now on my .45acp revolver I don't get the bulge at the base all, regardless of how many reloads. The difference is that the .45acp dies will fully (and I mean, 100%) resize the brass, thus eliminating any "ring bulge". .38 special/.357 mag dies (RCBS) don't appear to resize as fully as the .45acp dies. Anyway, the reason this has become a problem is that some of the .38 spec brass is now getting just a bit sticky on insertion. While one answer is to simply replace my brass, I'd much rather be able to fully (100%) resize the brass back to original spec. So, anyone else out there notice this phenomena? Anyone got any viable solutions? __________________ Robert N. "Remember, Eagles may soar but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"

December 6, 2006, 04:05 AM	#2
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Have you tried to screw the die in farther? Dumb question, but you want that die as close to she shell holder without it actualy touching. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

December 6, 2006, 07:11 AM	#4
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	+1 on the incipient case head failure! Discard that brass. Depending on how warm you load your cartridges, that could be a sign that your cases are about to fail. It doesn't take +P loads to cause this. The fact that you say you've reloaded the same cases 20 times tells me it's probably time to discard them and get some fresh(er) ones. DO check you resizing die to see that it leaves about .004"-.006" between the die and the shell holder. You don't want it making contact as it can damage the die, but too high and there will be a small area left unsized. This can cause a reloaded case to not chamber or it can cause it to stick in the chamber after firing. Years ago, the absolute best we were able to do with resizing .38 brass, before the case mouths split, was about 24 reloadings. This was reloading 148gr wadcutter (LHBWC) with match loads - not very stressful. Nickle cases would fail around 14-15 reloads as they were more brittle. I've only seen 2 case head ruptures in a revolver in 30+ years of shooting, both with reloaded ammo. The first was merely a nusiance since it was in a S&W Model 28 with recessed chambers. The second required a hospital visit by the shooter when hot gas and bits of brass hit his shooting hand. It wasn't pretty. Take some of that money you've saved by reloading and splurge on some virgin Starline brass. It'll be well worth the investment. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

December 6, 2006, 11:35 AM	#6
rnovi Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2005 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 401	Good advice on ditching the old brass. For whatever reason the case-head separation just never popped into my head. I'll disect a few cases just for giggles, but I'll agree - let's put this brass on it's last legs and head it towards the trashcan. As to the die/sizing plate? Yep, I've set it for minimum tolerances. No issues there. As to the load: I'm using 3.0 gr. Clays and a 125gr bullet. Clocks at around 900fps out of my 6" gp100. I kid you not, there are .22's out there with more felt recoil! __________________ Robert N. "Remember, Eagles may soar but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!"

December 6, 2006, 11:49 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I suspect that it's more likely caused by the loading dies and repeatedly loading and firing the case. I've seen rings like that on some of my .38 Spl. brass that has been loaded dozens of times. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 6, 2006, 06:39 AM	#3
mega twin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2006 Posts: 434	A ring near the rim could be a sign the case is about to separate.After reloading the same cases that many times, I believe you should invest in some new brass. A case head failure is not a fun, or safe thing..38 brass is alot cheaper than trips to the Er.

December 6, 2006, 11:14 AM	#5
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	Since you mentioned the ring developed over time I would go with the incipient case head seperation too. Get rid of it. The reason you aren't seeing it in your 45 brass is probably because they have thicker walls near the head.

December 6, 2006, 11:32 PM	#8
The Real Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2006 Location: South Central KY Posts: 339	From an old time reloader Discard that brass, it's showng signs of impending failure.

December 6, 2006, 11:36 PM	#9
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	It's time to scrap the brass BEFORE it fails.

December 7, 2006, 12:40 AM	#10
epr105 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sullivan County, New York Posts: 241	Th ebuldge is a sure sign of impending danger. Brass will not last forever and depending how hot you load it it can go bad faster. I had a bunch of .38 brass that you could have hade for a decent price. I had it up on the board for a few days and no one seemed to even comment on it. I just ended up bringing it to the scrap dealer. I got a good price but it still kills me to see once fired brass go into the melter __________________ Two to the chest and one to the head

December 7, 2006, 09:52 AM	#11
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	ring near the rim That ring near the rim of your cases is normal. It is caused by your using a CARBIDE SIZING DIE. The die can not/does not size far enough down to get that last 1/8th inch. If you used steel dies, they say you would not get that ring.

December 7, 2006, 12:13 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yep, Madison is, as I noted before, right. A incipient case failure due to headspace issues shows up as a bright ring of differently colored brass that can't be felt on the exterior of the case. You can feel the separation ring on the INSIDE of the case if you either use a bent paperclip, or if you section the case. An incipient case separation does not cause a bump on the exterior of the case. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

December 7, 2006, 01:14 PM	#13
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I've been seeing that ring on my 44 brass here n there. I sectioned some and did the paperclip thing also, and concluded that the ring you see is where the brass starts getting thicker towards the web of the case and cant be sized down as far as the side walls. I just keep reloading them and it hasn't been a problem. But you have some sticky insertion? That could be a bullet issue. Changed bullets lately, or brass? I had sticky insertion in 38 when I tried using a gas checked bullet in 38+P brass. The brass starts getting thicker higher on the case sooner than on non +P brass and the GC was bulging it. Double check your case spec's and consider what bullets you're using. HTH's.

December 7, 2006, 07:35 PM	#14
cheygriz Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2002 Location: high up in the rockies Posts: 2,289	Get new brass if they are getting sticky. But depending on the load, I have a lot of .38 special barss that has been loaded with light target wadcutter loads over 50 times. I do have a visible sizing ring near the rim, but the loaded cases "drop" into the cylinder without pushing. OTOH, I have recently thrown out 500 cases that had been loaded only about a dozen times. But they were loaded to +P+ with jacketed bullets. __________________ If you think a mighty military force is expensive, wait 'til you see what a weak one costs.

December 7, 2006, 07:48 PM	#15
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	The 'coke bottle' look is common on straight wall pistol cases that have been reloaded a number of times. A carbide sizing die cannot reach the very head of the case, and even steel dies have some relief for easier alignement. The 'coke bottle' nomenclature comes from the appearance of a loaded round. Bigger at the bullet, small in the middle, bigger at the head where the die cannot reach. It shows up faster with heavier loads, but eventually shows up even in bullsyes wadcutter loads. The lower pressure loads just need more repititions to expand the cse near the head.