Unburned IMR 800x

[guygotguns]

I have a question please, not sure if I should have started a new thread or asked in an already established one, (no that's not the question)anyway I loaded some 230 gr. FMJ .45 ACP with 6.3 gr. of 800x (Lee starting load)Winchester lrg pistol primers. They shot fine and accuracy was okay but I found a lot of unburned flakes on the shooting bench and in the barrel of my Kimber. All bullets were seated at 1.225. I read somewhere in another forum that one possible solution may be to increase powder(seems like an oxymoron, more powder to get less unburned) another says to use a magnum primer. Do any of you agree with either suggestion or have a better suggestion?

[jepp2]

Hodgdon data lists 6.5 gr. (at 15.1K CUP) starting load and a max load of 7.0 gr. (17.3K CUP) max load. OAL was 1.200".

So you are loading lighter with a longer OAL, so your velocity and pressure are going to be much below the starting load. So unburned powder isn't surprising. Even with increased loads, with 800X expect to see some unburned powder, but it should burn much cleaner. Any reason why you chose your starting load so low?

Higher powder charges burn cleaner due to increased pressure and better burning conditions.

[Nick_C_S]

Any reason why you chose your starting load so low?

Any reason why you choose 800X?

That's an awfully slow powder for the low-pressure 45 ACP cartridge. But, you should be able to get it to clean up, I suppose. You're gonna have to load 'er up good though. 800X is designed to breathe fire - it's not a plinking powder.

I'd alleviate the problem entirely by moving to a faster powder IMO.

[Nick_C_S]

I read somewhere in another forum that one possible solution may be to increase powder(seems like an oxymoron, more powder to get less unburned)

Perhaps "counter-intuitive" would be the better term. Either way, yes. This is not uncommon. With medium-speed to slow powders (fast powders too - but to a much lesser extent), underloading them leads to insufficient combustion. They are designed to burn under high pressure - the type of pressure that never develops if they are underloaded.

another says to use a magnum primer.

This can help. But it tends to help some powders more than others. Use of a magnum primer with HS-6 or W296 is common, for instance. Not sure about 800X - I've never used it (and not likely to).

[mmb713]

All of the data publishers emphasize to NEVER EXCEED PUBLISHED MAXIMUMS! in all caps and bold faced. They also need to have a stern caveat to NEVER LOAD BELOW PUBLISHED MINIMUMS! too.

I've found that most powders perform best at the higher end of the load range and unburnt powder is very common with starting loads. You will get more complete burning by upping your charge. And like Nick said a faster powder would be more suitable for the cartridge, if you can find some. Good luck with that.

No published data for 45 Auto requires magnum priming and I've never heard of a flake powder that requires it either.

Work up your loads starting at the published minimum and load up to the published maximum. I'm sure there is a good load to be found in there. Good luck.

[boondocker385]

I use both 800 and 70 in 45 acp. Load them close to max and they do better. Not the best for plinking loads.

[guygotguns]

Thanks for the replies, I chose 6.3 gr of 800x from the manual; Modern Reloading 2nd edition by Richard Lee, it also says to maintain a min OAL of 1.200 or larger, I guess I should have cross referenced with the Hodgdon web site. Maybe I'll stick to Nitro 100nf for .45 along with some Win.231 and use the 800x for my 10mm loads.

[SauerGrapes]

Good idea. I use 800x in my .40 SD loads. Does well with higher pressures.
45acp, I use something more like Clays and American Select for target loads.

[skizzums]

231 will be dandy

[jimbob86]

That's an awfully slow powder for the low-pressure 45 ACP cartridge.

+1.

It will behave better at max levels .... but there are better powders for .45ACP.

[Clark]

I have found that hot unburned flakes of 800X from the muzzle can burn holes in paint.

[WESHOOT2]

hot unburned flakes of 800X from the muzzle can burn holes in paint

'Cause when I was working with 800X in the 10mm I found them hot flakes would melt dents in my chrono-table top......

[sawdustdad]

I started loading some 9mm Luger ammo last night using my recent purchase of 800x. It does not meter as well as Unique in my Square Deal press. I had to dump a couple cases that were obviously smaller charges. I am loading 4.6g, a few were closer to 4.5g. These is just plinking ammo, so slight variations are not too much of a concern. The minimum charge is 4.3g. Max is 5.3 per the Hodgdon reloading website.

I'll report back on how they worked after I take some to the range.

[riverratt]

I use 800x for 9mm and 44 mag (only powder thats around) i found that if you add a vibrator to your powder measure is meaters MUCH better. I use an aireator pump i got at the bait store. I just clip it to the hopper and works great. I found that some of them have nore vibration than others so something else could work better but i just had thoeslieing around the house.

[sawdustdad]

Update: after running about 3 magazines through my Taurus PT99. The 4.6g of 800x must be insufficient to achieve complete combustion as hot flakes of powder were ejected with each case. The gun did not function properly as several rounds did not chamber, and a few cases stovepiped on ejection. Will go back and increase the load to closer to max and try again. Hope this works because I bought 4 lb of 800x specifically for 9mm as it's tough to find any other powder.

[Nick_C_S]

sawdustdad: You're going to struggle with 800X and 9mm. Your trip to the range aptly confirms this.

For starters - and as you have noted - it's a really poor metering powder. It lends itself to delivering inconsistent powder throws; and in the tiny 9mm case, that's a huge problem.

Frankly, it's just too slow for 9mm. It's too slow for most everything except big magnum rounds. I think your only hope is to get some 147g bullets for it. The heavier slugs will steepen the pressure curve - giving the net effect of a faster burn rate. And even then, you're going to have to load it up really good and hot. The whole thing is a tall order.

Unfortunately, this ongoing and persistent shortage has resulted in a lot of loaders' shelves stocked with powders too slow for their intended application. I can't count how many similar posts I've seen here in the past 18 months or so. It's unfortunate.

[sawdustdad]

thanks, Nick, for the additional info. I might try seating the bullets a little deeper, too, to increase the pressure. The accuracy wasn't bad, despite the metering issue. Put 15 rounds in about a 4 inch group at 25 feet, which is about typical for my Unique loads.

I've only got a couple pounds of powder left that is suitable for my 38sp. so I'm saving it for them. Was hoping the 800x would work on the 9mm. I've got 4227 and W296 for my magnum ammo, and am good to go there.

[jimbob86]

I might try seating the bullets a little deeper, too, to increase the pressure.

Carefull .....

Steepening the pressure curve comes at a cost ..... the powder already does not meter consistantly ......

[Nick_C_S]

I might try seating the bullets a little deeper

Playing with seating depth to get a powder to behave differently is probably not a good approach. In this case - a light bullet with a slow powder - my concern isn't so much safety as it is effectiveness. It probably won't help, and you may just create new problems. Seating depth should be determined by your gun's chamber and how that particular bullet fits in it; and not to change the burn characteristics of the propellant.

I still think getting some 147's is your best option if you insist on running 800X in your 9mm.

Another thing to keep in mind: It seems the powder shortages are easing up a little. Keep an eye out - something more usable may come up.

[riverratt]

I still think getting some 147's is your best option if yo running 800X in your 9mm.

Nick speaks the truth. I was unable to get a good burn out of 800X with the 124gr bullets. If i use the 147gr bullets with a stiff charge it burns alot better but still not great.

When useing a vibrator on the powder hopper i am able to get just over a .1gr +/-. So i worked up with weighing every charge up to max listed then backed off .3gr. So far so good.

[sawdustdad]

My OAL for the first batch of 9mm I loaded was about 1.2 inches. The loading manual states OAL should be 1.1 inches. I reseated some of the bullets to the proper depth.

I also loaded some to the max load of 5.3g. I'll see if that helps.

Would be nice to see some other pistol powders available, but short of paying double or triple on gunbroker, I'm not seeing it. I might have to do that, though.

I don't have any heavier 9mm bullets on hand. Would have to order some. It would be cheaper to pay double or triple for the powder from gunbroker than to buy the bullets, though.

Won't get back to the range until later this week. Will report on results. Thanks for all the feedback.

[Jim Watson]

I am loading trial amounts of 9mm with 700X. It is a better burn rate for non-magnums but is still a large flake with poor metering in the sub-five grain range. I quit using it in pistols after getting some one grain charges but am giving it another chance with an airpump vibrator on the measure.

Just trying to get some use out of it, I haven't shot any great amount of trap in some years and don't need many 12 gauge shells.

[skizzums]

I agree with agitation of the powder helping consistency. I use a small sideburn trimmer and just touch it to the stand of the PPM. helps a lot with stick powders too

[guygotguns]

Haven't loaded any .45 ACP since my original post but did load some 180 grain mag-tech 10mm bullets using the 800x and magnum primers, the noise produced from the go-bang was a lot more impressive than the accuracy, going to re-do the same load with a regular lrg. pistol primer, see if they wont shoot as high this time. I supposed it could have been the Mag-Tech bullets, first time using those.

On a different note was able to pick up some WST powder to go with the Nitro 100nf and w231 for my .45s at the Novi (MI.) gun show last weekend.

[Nick_C_S]

Nitro 100nf and w231

Just the two powders I've been looking for, for almost two years. Wonder if any is going to show up this way any time soon?

I've never used Nitro 100, but have a few ideas that have been bouncing around in my head for a long time now.

And then there's W231. Just the best pistol powder ever.

Yep, I'm jealous