July 16, 2013, 09:51 PM | #1 |
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Reloading .223
I know there are a lot of different opinions on shooting 5.56 out of a .223. I know the reasons they say you shouldn't. I don't really want to get into that.
As far as reloading, I don't think there should be a difference, but my question is: Is there any reason you can't use 5.56 headstamped brass to reload .223? I read that the 5.56 brass is thicker and that 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures and there's a difference in headspace. But since you're basically loading at lower pressure for .223, again, is there any reason you can't use 5.56 brass? My current load is 25grs of IMR 4895 with a .55gr HPBT Sierra bullet. It's a very accurate load. All constructive opinions are welcomed. Thanks. |
July 16, 2013, 11:08 PM | #2 |
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I load them both the same..But I don't load hot.
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July 16, 2013, 11:15 PM | #3 |
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I sort military and suspected military brass off from my commercial .223 brass. It gets its own load workups due to the possibility of a reduced case volume, I don't load very hot so thus far I haven't had any real differences, but that could change.
If you look below though, I suppose I have been mistaken. I haven't weighed or done volume tests myself. Last edited by SVTCobra306; July 17, 2013 at 08:13 PM. |
July 16, 2013, 11:25 PM | #4 |
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
The .223 Remington is SAAMI registered at 55,000 psi max average. I find I can get long brass life with that case head design if I run 75,000 psi in Quickload estimation. I do not do that in AR15s that are not gas adjustable. 5.56 is registered at 62,366 psi. ------------------ Contrast this with 22-250 and 270 that are SAAMI registered at 65,000 psi max average and I can only get up to 67,000 psi in Quickload and be sure of long brass life with that case head design. -------------------- In both case heads, the limit for me in strong rifles is loose primer pockets. ------------------------------ If I fill up a .223 case with IMR4895 to the top, I can get 27 ~ 28 gr in the case, but I can't seat the bullet. The most I can compress and crush in there is ~ 25.5 gr. That gives me 50 kpsi in Quickload. --------------------- So I personally do not worry about too much IMR4895 in a .223 with a 55 gr bullet. But it is very accurate, you are right. H335 gives a lot more velocity, but the groups are larger... and higher on the target at 200y.
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July 17, 2013, 01:43 AM | #5 |
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The basic difference in the rounds is the amount of freebore or throat. The 5.56 has a longer throat. I load .223/5.56 in bulk and load so that the rounds will feed from an AR magazine. Recommended OAL is 2.25". If you load to that dimention either .223 or 5.56 brass run through a .223 sizing die will shoot in either chamber. I do not sort brass either commercial or military. Group size is better tha .5 MOA in any of my .223/5.56 weapons whether bolt or AR. I use H335 or AA2230. I have not tried CFE223 as I need to bulk order more powder and no wholesaler has any in quanity. I am considering buying a .22 cal throating reamer and deep throating all my .223 firearms to 5.56 throating specs.
I doubt if any reader on this forum has the equipment to measure PSI or CUP so quoting a SAAMI designation is irrelivant. Using case web measurement pressure indications and chronographs is what we have available. Using data and quoting Quickload is pie in the sky. If you want to really know what your handloads are doing you need to use a chronograph. Others that have been in the habit of quoting Quickload or a similar computer program have opened their eyes once they acquire a chronograph. Last edited by shastaboat; July 17, 2013 at 01:53 AM. |
July 17, 2013, 07:12 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
There is no headspace difference between the 223 and the 5.56. Even if there was that would not affect your ability to use 5.56 brass. There is no such thing as 5.56 loading dies. You read Wrong, that is a Myth that will not go away. 5.56 brass is NOT thicker and does NOT have less case capacity than 223 brass. In fact it often times has More case capacity. |
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July 17, 2013, 07:50 AM | #7 |
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Whether 5.56 or 223, this number can be a real PITA in developing accurate loads if the reloader is unfamiliar with his barrels twist rate.
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July 17, 2013, 08:12 AM | #8 | |
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July 17, 2013, 11:18 AM | #9 |
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The military 7.62x51 brass is heavier than the .308 Win brass.
The military 5.56x45 brass is NOT heavier than 223 Rem brass. That confusion's half life could be measured in years.
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July 17, 2013, 01:51 PM | #10 |
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I hate it when you only take part of a web site article and post it. This little piece is also from the same article that the nice chart was taken from.
"223 Remington vs. 5.56×45–Chambering and Throat Considerations Is the .223 Remington the same as the 5.56×45? The answer is yes and no. There ARE differences between the .223 Remington as shot in civilian rifles and the 5.56×45 in military use. While the external cartridge dimensions are essentially the same, the .223 Remington is built to SAAMI specs, rated to 50,000 CUP max pressure, and normally has a shorter throat. The 5.56×45 is built to NATO specs, rated to 60,000 CUP max pressure, and has a longer throat, optimized to shoot long bullets. That said, there are various .223 Remington match chambers, including the Wylde chamber, that feature longer throats. Military 5.56×45 brass often, but not always, has thicker internal construction, and slightly less capacity than commercial .223 Rem brass." REF : http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/ Now the answer is you can use either brass in the .233 however you can only shoot and load 5.56 load data for a gun marketed 5.56 on the barrel. I am sorry I forgot to add an important part about reloading. It is generally safe to reload 5.56 cases to 233 but you should account for the possibility of a thicker case in the 5.56 walls. Thus it is advisable to always reduce your initial powder capacity and work up developing a new load when using 5.56 brass. Last edited by Farmland; July 17, 2013 at 02:09 PM. |
July 17, 2013, 02:25 PM | #11 | ||
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I just roll over laughing ever time this debate comes up.
Quote:
Now also noted and also a fact: Quote:
Sooooooooooooooo, the smart shooter / loader is loading light to extend the life of their brass so when it is all said and done what difference does it make as long as you remember loading .223 in 5.56 cambering = GOOD & loading 5.56 in .223 cambering = BAD! Just my nickel and a quarter.
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July 17, 2013, 06:47 PM | #12 | |
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From Sierra. The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases, it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223. Know your components and keep them segregated accordingly. Link http://www.exteriorballistics.com/re...sgunreload.cfm |
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July 17, 2013, 06:57 PM | #13 |
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Not to be picky but do you read what you post?
" We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. " However anyone can do what they want to. I think I have given safe sound advice. |
July 17, 2013, 07:12 PM | #14 | |
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Quote:
One more. |
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July 17, 2013, 11:30 PM | #15 |
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I just weighed a handful of cleaned and deprimed 223 and 5.56 mixed brass on an Ohaus dial-0-grain 3100 grain capacity scale.
Win 93 gr LC01 92 Win 92 LC02 92 LC01 93 PMC 91 LC01 91 LC01 93 LC91 91 LC02 91 WIN 94 SS109 94 96 LC98 91 WIN 94 RP 92 LC89 93 RP [Nickel] 90 5.56 223 HP 94 LC03 92 5.56 223 HP 94 LC00 91 PMC 92 CL01 91 LC01 92 LC87 92 Win 93 LC89 92 LC02 91 LC02 92 LC83 92 LC01 91 LC04 93 Win 95 Win 94 RP 93 RTA P87 92 WCC84 92 LC02 91 LC02 91 TZZ95 94 RP 93 LC70 94 LC02 91 SS109 94 94 LC83 92 LC02 91 LC91 92 LC02 91 LC02 92 RP 93 ---------------------------
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July 18, 2013, 06:26 AM | #16 | |
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Quote:
For example, PMP brass weighed 12.5gr more than LC 06 brass and only had .7gr capacity loss. Lapua weighed less than PMP by .5gr yet also had a loss in case capacity of 1.9gr. |
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July 18, 2013, 08:46 AM | #17 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
So now I must ask, do YOU read what YOU post? Me? I'll go with my experience and say that I handload and use ONLY military 5.56 cases (Lake City) and have yet to worry about less case capacity in them. |
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July 18, 2013, 09:22 AM | #18 |
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My current 223/5.56 brass.
GFL(223) dry weight-102.4gr With H20-131.4 Case capacity in grains of H20-29gr Remington(223) Dry weight-95.2gr With H20-125.1gr Case capacity in grains of H20-29.9gr LC(5.56)Dry weight-96.3gr With H20-126.7gr Case capacity in grains of H20-30.4gr. |
July 18, 2013, 11:04 AM | #19 |
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I woke up this morning realizing I should have interpreted my data in my last post.
The density of brass is ~ 8.5 grains/ cubic centimeter. The density of water is = 1.0 grains/ cubic centimeter. The density ratio is 8.5:1 8.5 grains of brass displaces 1 gr of water. 1 gr of brass displaces .12 gr water The brass I weighed was from 90 to 96 grains of brass. That brass displaced between 10.5 gr of water and 11.3 gr of water. So we would expect a range in water capacity of .8 gr of water. But, when we look at steve4102's post at 8:12, we see he quotes a 1.2 gr range of water capacity. Where is the truth, 1.2 gr water range or 0.8 gr of water? The first ~.3" of the case does not expand [see pic of cross sectioned brass below], and lends credence to the 1.2 gr water. The forward ~ 1.45" expands and lends credence to the 0.8 gr water. The balance point is ~ .35", so the truth is near the middle or 1 gr of water range. Using quick load to find the difference in pressure in a .223 with a 1 gr change in water capacity, from 29.3 to 30.3 gr water, using the OP's 55 gr and 25 gr of IMR4895, then we see a range of 45,798 psi 3,122 fps change to 41,516 psi 3,068 fps. That to me is outside the realm of concern, so I will heat up the example. CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=h335 pic left to right: unfired, 28, 29, 30, and 31 gr H335 55 gr Vmax a) 25.3 gr [Hodgdon load], extractor groove .329", 0% overload 54 kpsi b) 28 gr, extractor groove .329", 11% overload 77 kpsi c) 29 gr, extractor groove .329", 15% overload 89kpsi d) 30 gr, extractor groove .3295", 19% overload 103kpsi e) 31 gr, extractor groove .3320", 23% overload 120kpsi If we increase the case capacity from 29.3 gr water to 30.3 gr, then the estimate becomes a) 25.3 gr 49kpsi b) 28 gr 70 kpsi c) 29 gr 80kpsi d) 30 gr 92kpsi e) 31 gr 106kpsi So the threshold of long brass life is somewhere between 89kpsi and 103 kpsi at 29.3 gr water capacity brass and between 80kpsi and 92 kpsi with 30.3 gr water capacity brass. If people would just load at 55kpsi like SAAMI says or 62,366 psi like NATO says, then they would not have to worry about pressure between 29.3 gr water brass and 30.3 gr water brass.
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The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought? |
July 18, 2013, 11:28 AM | #20 |
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Holy crap! All this over how big the inside of a case is? If there are case capacity differences an experienced, careful, common sense reloader will not have any problems. Heck, I know what chamber my rifle has, I know how to size my brass, and I know how to load for my rifle. I never load to max. so any difference in case capacity is moot...
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July 18, 2013, 02:33 PM | #21 | |
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Re: Reloading .223
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July 18, 2013, 03:45 PM | #22 |
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This certainly got a lot deeper than I intended. My 25grs of IMR 4895 is not a max load and I'm pretty sure I knew the answer to my question to begin with, but I do thank everyone for all the replies and opinions.
I'm shooting it out of a Remington VLS and really good accuracy out of it. Thanks to all. |
July 20, 2013, 12:19 AM | #23 |
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Eagle
Just remember after you have worked up a load that works, once you change a component it is very likely your grouping and so on will also change. For example, if you change to different primers, change bullets, powder type, maybe even brass, it will all have an effect.
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