Handgun bullet stopping power by Bredsten

[mikthestick]

I would like to discuss this book with those who have bought it. I bought the book to help me decide which was the best stopping power formula. I love the book, agree with the conclusion Hatcher's formula is best for rating hand guns. However my favorite is Matunas PIR formula. I intended to write about why on this site and thought as many people think the subject point less this thread would be a good starting point. The poll attached to this thread may tell me if I'm wasting my time.
There are mistakes in this book. It may seem a contradiction but these mistakes do not (in my opinion) devalue the work or effect the conclusions of the author. Rather they give those who would dismiss the idea as nonsense a chance to say if one part is a mistake then so is the rest. I think most readers would miss these mistakes. I did not spot them immediately.

[jmr40]

Using math foumula's can tell us some things, but not others. I don't think they are useless, but rather one tool that can be used to predict what will happen. You have to look at a lot of factors and consider everything. Used alone any one method can be very misleading.

While not perfect, the tests involving shooting into mediums that attempt to duplicate human bodies are probably the most useful.

[sgms]

The subject is a good one and worth talking about but I think the formulas are a bit misleading as well. They have there uses and can help in making a decision about caliber selection but lets face it in a S. D. situation it still boils down to where the bullet ends up. A small slow bullet in a fatal place is better than a big fast moving bullet that isn't.

[Tom Servo]

I see them all as abstract theoretical exercises with little real-world application. Does that mean they're not worth discussing? No.

However, I've dealt with pointless people who've relied on them and ended up taking a gun into the field (whether against game or for self defense) that was far from ideal for them.

[Sevens]

It seems to me that some people pour a lot of energy and heart in to trying to figure these things out - I suppose with great hope that it might serve them one day in some kind of self-defense shooting.

But the real world has shown again and again and again and again (without end) that while you can come to some conclusions, there's a whole lot more that actually happens that you simply can't count on, predict, or build a formula to determine.

[mikthestick]

Interesting poll responses so far. I see these formulas as a guide to making the right choice of firearm. An experienced shooter could come to the same conclusion due to his/her experience.

Regarding the mistakes I mentioned expanding bullets were not in Hatchers original calculations. So it is arguable there is no mistake. Someone has updated it with a modifier for HP bullets that expand (1350) and a modifier for unexpanded HP (1000-1100). The author uses a modifier of 1050 and .355, .355 x 1.5, and .355 x 1.75 as calibers for bullets of different expansion. Using a modifier of 1350 fits published data on the internet.

[Colt46]

the bigger the bullet the bigger the hole.
People bleed from holes.

[mete]

Get out in the field and get real info. Woodchucks make a good target as they are tough for their size .Feral dogs another .Only then will you get a good idea of stopping power and bullet performance in general.
The bullet must penetrate into the vital organs to be really effective !

[mikthestick]

I don't disagree with the last two posts. I have never hunted anything bigger than rabbits with a BB gun(11.5ft/lbs). However I am waiting on the handguns annual with the article on bob Archibald's one shot stop ratio formula before I start a new thread.

[Pond, James Pond]

I find them interesting and have relied on them to point me in a certain direction, such as deciding on a projectile when all other things seemed equal or at least had equal appeal.

However, and I write this purely based on a personal estimate, I would say taht I'd be more inclined to give these formulas weight with CF rifle calibres rather than handguns. It seems to me that perhaps rifle projectiles will be less dissuaded by some of the variables such as clothing.

Perhaps I am wrong on that....

[manta49]

As far as handguns go I don't see the point , all the popular calibers are effective.

[mikthestick]

I think not all popular calibers are effective.

Marschall & Sannow books have taken a bit of a slating I believe and I am not quite sure how to use Fullers one shot stop formula which is their conclusion. However if it is used as a guide to what to use it may be OK. I don't know what Archibalds formula is based on but will find out. Fullers formula is based on data. So If you have a homicidal maniac sneaking up on victims with a 22lr if he does 5 murders with 5 rounds that skews results. Suddenly a 22 becomes much more effective than its ballistics or Fullers formula suggest it is.

If Archibald and Fuller come up with say 25-33% chance who is to say they are wrong, especially if they say a 9mm is about 66%.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This whole discussion points out that we do not have controlled data that is worth anything.

I doubt that formulas that are not compared to actual 'stops' will be worth much.

They introduce a false sense of a level of precision that does not exist in the real world data.

I do thing we know that on a more global level - quality 9s, 40s and 45s with a hit in a vital area seem equally efficacious. Beyond that, there is not much rich data to mine.

We get pseudo-math or anecdotes that the Crabville Police find that that 357 Sig serves them well as the hammer of Thor.

[manta49]

I think not all popular calibers are effective.

Marschall & Sannow books have taken a bit of a slating I believe and I am not quite sure how to use Fullers one shot stop formula which is their conclusion. However if it is used as a guide to what to use it may be OK. I don't know what Archibalds formula is based on but will find out. Fullers formula is based on data. So If you have a homicidal maniac sneaking up on victims with a 22lr if he does 5 murders with 5 rounds that skews results. Suddenly a 22 becomes much more effective than its ballistics or Fullers formula suggest it is.

I am talking about popular handgun cartridges commonly used for self defence. 9MM .45 .40 .357 etc, all that have been around long enough for to know how effective they are without some stopping power formula.

[mikthestick]

There is a big difference between a 9mm Kurz and a 9mm Parabellum further complicated by bullet type (FMJ, HP etc). Ask me to choose a pistol and I go for a 15 round magazine 9mm Parabelum 124gr @ best Mv I could buy. For me it's all about rating the firearms.
Also there seems to be an idea that stopping power and killing power are different. I have read the arguments but forgive me. I think you can't be more stopped than dead. I don't mean to be pedantic, but I will post my reasoning after I have received Archibald's article. These reasonings are already effected by opinions in this thread.

[manta49]

Also there seems to be an idea that stopping power and killing power are different.

The idea is to stop the threat, weather they are dead or not is irrelevant.

For me it's all about rating the firearms.

How do you rate them. ?

[Sharkbite]

Quote:
Also there seems to be an idea that stopping power and killing power are different.
The idea is to stop the threat, weather they are dead or not is irrelevant.

Dead 10 minutes from now is not nearly as good as STOPPED right now. The goal is to stop the action right now, if the attacker lives or dies DOES NOT MATTER in the context of the fight. Only stopping the attack matters

I used to be a bigger is better believer. I think that there is enough ACTUAL data on all the popular calibers that its clear. A good hit with a 9mm is the same as a good hit with a 45. A bad hit with either is still a bad hit. The larger caliber is not larger enough to make up for bad shot placement

Example, 9mm vs 40. There is ONLY .045" difference. Thats not going to make that low shot somehow get into the chest cavity or make the peripheral hit a good one.

" well i carry a .45 thats BIGGER." Still only another .051. So going from 9mm to .45 gains you whopping 1/10"!!!!!

Assuming the bullet you chose has adequate penetration, and most current defensive loading do. What does the "Bigger" caliber get you?

Handguns dont get hydro-static shock effects so its just what the bullet touches that matters

Smaller, lighter guns are easier to carry and conceal so what benefit does the bigger caliber give me?

[45_auto]

So going from 9mm to .45 gains you whopping 1/10"!!!!!

Yep, but that 1/10 of an inch is on the diameter. Since area is a function of diameter squared, that means that the frontal area of an unexpanded .45 (.451 diameter) is .160 square inches. An unexpanded 9mm (.356 diameter) has a frontal area of .10. So that 1/10 of an inch in diameter on a .45 buys you over 50% more frontal area (bigger hole, better chance of hitting something important) than a 9mm!!!

[Sharkbite]

Ok, but take that frontal area increase out of the lab and apply that to a human body. Is that enough of a difference to matter?

The data says No...

A good hit by either caliber is just as effective as any other. Thats what we are seeing in ACTUAL use

We arent trying to break the line into a higher scoring ring on a tgt. A center chest hit is good. A hit in the little toe...not so good

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm calling this as I pointed out in my post, there is too much junk science in this.

When some physiologist or physician using appropriate scientific methods figures this one out - using a good solid data set - let me know.

Closed.