Does anyone shoot 30-03?

mardanlin · March 6, 2014, 11:26 AM

I noticed that my Lyman loading guide mentions this parent to the 30-06 but doesn't include any load data or dimensions of the cartridge. Does anyone still use this cartridge or has it been lost in history? I don't think I'll ever have a rifle that shoots it, but I would like to know a little bit more about the cartridge itself.

kerreckt · March 6, 2014, 12:28 PM

I still have one that I found when I was a kid.There is a difference in neck length. The '06 is a bit shorter (1.5mm). I believe you can shoot '06 in an '03 but not the other way around. It would be inaccurate because of the jump the bullet would take due to the difference in length. I believe it was the first smokeless cartridge used by the USA and only for 3 years until the '06. The only rifle I know of that might still be around is an 1895 model Winchester lever action. All the military rifles were re-chambered/barreled. That's about all I can remember about it. I am sure there are people on this forum that can tell you more.

**Mike Irwin** · March 6, 2014, 12:33 PM

The .30-03 was the first iteration of what would become the .30-06 cartridge that saw the United States through two world wars and Korea.

It used a case almost identical to the .30-06, except for a slightly longer neck. It used the same 220-gr. jacketed round nose bullet that had been introduced with the .30-40 Krag.

Due to the development of pointed bullets in France and Germany, and due to advances in the still-new smokeless powders available for the cartridge, the .30-03 was redesigned with a shorter neck and given a 150-gr. flat base pointed bullet -- the .30-06.

Most original M1903 Springfield rifles were pulled out of service and rechambered for the new military cartridge. Not many remain.

Commercially, probably the most popular rifle to chamber the .30-03 cartridge was the M1895 Winchester lever action, although there may have been a few others, as well.

Because of its association with the 1895, the .30-03 cartridge was commerically loaded in the United States until right before World War II. I'm pretty sure that Winchester was the last standing producer of this ammo.

Oddly enough, the .30-03 did have an impact on cartridge development, and is, in a way, still with us today.

In the 1920s, when Winchester was developing the .270 Winchester, they used the .30-03's longer case (2.540") as the parent.

When Remington brought out the .280/7mm Express in the 1970s, they also picked up on the longer case.

**Mike Irwin** · March 6, 2014, 12:35 PM

" I believe it was the first smokeless cartridge used by the USA"

Nope. That was the .30-40 Krag.

"All the military rifles were re-chambered/barreled."

Not all. You can still occasionally find a Model of 1903, but you'll pay for it.

RC20 · March 6, 2014, 01:57 PM

Mike, I am shocked, just shocked you use the term "pointed bullet"

All cartridge geeks call it a spitzer! (grin)

I did not know that Winchester had a gun for that cartridge. The interesting things you learn here.

**Mike Irwin** · March 6, 2014, 02:04 PM

You know, I couldn't remember the word spitzer....

There's some debate about how many were chambered for .30-03. It couldn't have been many, that's for sure.

Jimro · March 6, 2014, 02:11 PM

Ever wonder why we call them "Spitzer" bullets from "spitzerschloss" (German for "pointed bullet" I think) instead of something French?

The French Balle D was the first pointed bullet used by any military.

Weird, I think.

Jimro

**Mike Irwin** · March 6, 2014, 02:52 PM

"The French Balle D was the first pointed bullet used by any military."

The French didn't give it a fancy name.

They just called it the Balle D.

Not sexy.

JD0x0 · March 7, 2014, 02:25 PM

Quote:

"The French Balle D was the first pointed bullet used by any military."

The French didn't give it a fancy name.

They just called it the Balle D.

Not sexy.

Pretty much...
'Spitzer' just sounds pointy and fast in it's name, to me.

Balle D, makes me think of a musket ball or another rounded projectile.

**Mike Irwin** · March 7, 2014, 02:59 PM

Oh, and by the way...

The Balle D wasn't only the first spitzer (there, happy?

) bullet employed by a military, it was also the first boat tailed bullet employed by a military.

The boat tail wasn't extensive, bit it was there...

Last interesting tidbit about the Balle D? It wasn't a jacketed bullet. It was a piece of lathe turned bronze. In other words... solid bronze.

iraiam · March 8, 2014, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Ever wonder why we call them "Spitzer" bullets from "spitzerschloss" (German for "pointed bullet" I think) instead of something French?

Yes, I have often wondered that, I haven't studied or spoke German in a long time, but to apply the word "spitzer" to a bullet makes no sense to me, I think it should actually be "spitz", but then; naming things when the root in another language always seems a bit murky.

**Mike Irwin** · March 8, 2014, 10:40 AM

"spitzerschloss" (German for "pointed bullet" I think)"

What I'm coming up with is that spitzerschloss means, literally, "pointed closed."

Granted, that's an online translator, but I think it points to the fact that the bullet is a pointed full metal jacket.

**Mike Irwin** · March 8, 2014, 10:57 AM

Speaking of boattailed bullets, after World War I the US military started looking at increasing the range of its machine guns, so it started looking at a heavier, boattailed bullet.

In the 1920s the M1 bullet was adopted, a 172-gr. boattail. The immediate effect was that just about every military shooting range in the states became obsolete because the new bullet almost doubled the range of the earlier 150-gr. flat base bullet.

It also substantially increased recoil when firing from the M1903 Springfield.

In 1938 the military went back to the 150-gr. flatbase bullet, only with a gilding metal jacket, not the original cupronickel jacket, and called it the M2.

M1 ammunition was slated for use in machine guns, primarily aircraft, where the increased ballistic performance made hitting easier.

Jimro · March 8, 2014, 11:01 AM

Yup, and after WWII the crimping cannelure was removed from the M1 bullet and it was designated the M72 match bullet.

The longest serving sniper/match bullet in US history was developed in the 1920s. Not a bad run at all I think.

Jimro

iraiam · March 8, 2014, 11:20 AM

Quote:

What I'm coming up with is that spitzerschloss means, literally, "pointed closed."

I think Spitzgeschoss would be the word. which would translate to "pointed projectile", there may be a better word than projectile, but like I said; I haven't spoken a word in German for years.

**Mike Irwin** · March 8, 2014, 02:00 PM

"Spitzgeschoss"

Yep, you're right, that's the German word. I combined the Americanization with the German and am sort of surprised I got anything back at all!

Mike40-11 · March 10, 2014, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Last interesting tidbit about the Balle D? It wasn't a jacketed bullet. It was a piece of lathe turned bronze.

Wow, that sounds.....expensive.

FrankenMauser · March 10, 2014, 12:40 PM

Quote:

There's some debate about how many were chambered for .30-03. It couldn't have been many, that's for sure.

My experience seems to be completely abnormal.

I've heard that they're "rare as hen's teeth", "harder to find than a steak on a worm", "about as common as honest politicians", etc...

However, I've run across at least two dozen of them in the last 6 years. At one point in time, it seemed like I couldn't walk into a shop in the Salt Lake valley without stumbling across another 1895 in .30-03. It got to the point that my brothers and I had a running joke about them. -When we were looking for something specific, but came up empty, we'd ask if they wanted an 1895 in .30-03 ... because that's the only thing we could find reliably.

There's always the possibility that there was an 1895 collector in the area that died or decided to unload his .30-03 collection. But it wasn't a flood of 1895s, all showing up at once. It was a rifle here, a rifle there, a pair that showed up at the Lehi Cabela's, another one here, another one there....

**Mike Irwin** · March 10, 2014, 03:12 PM

There are some in .30-03 for sale on gunsinternational.com. One says that it's got a date stamp of 1916, so perhaps the .30-03 was in production longer than I would have ever thought.

Unfortunately, other than references to the total number made, and the number made for Russia (http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/1895.shtml) I can't find any information as to how many were made in the other chamberings.

Most people don't know that there were a bunch made in .303 British, too.

I'd love to have one of those.

Hell, I'd love to have an 1895 of any stripe.

FrankenMauser · March 11, 2014, 12:43 AM

I agree.
Unfortunately, they're always priced beyond my reach. I could swing it, if I had to; but I'm just not willing to pay what most sellers are asking.

The only one I really wish I had reconsidered was a nearly-pristine .30-03 with a factory 28" half octagon barrel at the Lehi, Utah Cabela's (I believe it was a 1913, but I could be mistaken). They were only asking $950 for it, because someone had drilled and tapped the barrel for a scope base and there was a bunch of nasty staining on/in the stocks (it looked like it was from brass corrosion). I know those problems are a big deal to a "collector"; but they're nothing to someone like me, that would actually use the oddball for its original purpose.

At the time, I wasn't interested in a .30-06 class cartridge. So, I walked away.

March 6, 2014, 11:26 AM	#1
mardanlin Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2013 Posts: 208	Does anyone shoot 30-03? I noticed that my Lyman loading guide mentions this parent to the 30-06 but doesn't include any load data or dimensions of the cartridge. Does anyone still use this cartridge or has it been lost in history? I don't think I'll ever have a rifle that shoots it, but I would like to know a little bit more about the cartridge itself.

March 6, 2014, 12:33 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	The .30-03 was the first iteration of what would become the .30-06 cartridge that saw the United States through two world wars and Korea. It used a case almost identical to the .30-06, except for a slightly longer neck. It used the same 220-gr. jacketed round nose bullet that had been introduced with the .30-40 Krag. Due to the development of pointed bullets in France and Germany, and due to advances in the still-new smokeless powders available for the cartridge, the .30-03 was redesigned with a shorter neck and given a 150-gr. flat base pointed bullet -- the .30-06. Most original M1903 Springfield rifles were pulled out of service and rechambered for the new military cartridge. Not many remain. Commercially, probably the most popular rifle to chamber the .30-03 cartridge was the M1895 Winchester lever action, although there may have been a few others, as well. Because of its association with the 1895, the .30-03 cartridge was commerically loaded in the United States until right before World War II. I'm pretty sure that Winchester was the last standing producer of this ammo. Oddly enough, the .30-03 did have an impact on cartridge development, and is, in a way, still with us today. In the 1920s, when Winchester was developing the .270 Winchester, they used the .30-03's longer case (2.540") as the parent. When Remington brought out the .280/7mm Express in the 1970s, they also picked up on the longer case. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 6, 2014, 12:35 PM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	" I believe it was the first smokeless cartridge used by the USA" Nope. That was the .30-40 Krag. "All the military rifles were re-chambered/barreled." Not all. You can still occasionally find a Model of 1903, but you'll pay for it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 6, 2014, 02:04 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	You know, I couldn't remember the word spitzer.... There's some debate about how many were chambered for .30-03. It couldn't have been many, that's for sure. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 6, 2014, 02:11 PM	#7
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Ever wonder why we call them "Spitzer" bullets from "spitzerschloss" (German for "pointed bullet" I think) instead of something French? The French Balle D was the first pointed bullet used by any military. Weird, I think. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

March 6, 2014, 12:28 PM	#2
kerreckt Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2011 Location: SE VA. Posts: 216	I still have one that I found when I was a kid.There is a difference in neck length. The '06 is a bit shorter (1.5mm). I believe you can shoot '06 in an '03 but not the other way around. It would be inaccurate because of the jump the bullet would take due to the difference in length. I believe it was the first smokeless cartridge used by the USA and only for 3 years until the '06. The only rifle I know of that might still be around is an 1895 model Winchester lever action. All the military rifles were re-chambered/barreled. That's about all I can remember about it. I am sure there are people on this forum that can tell you more.

March 6, 2014, 01:57 PM	#5
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Mike, I am shocked, just shocked you use the term "pointed bullet" All cartridge geeks call it a spitzer! (grin) I did not know that Winchester had a gun for that cartridge. The interesting things you learn here.

March 6, 2014, 02:52 PM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"The French Balle D was the first pointed bullet used by any military." The French didn't give it a fancy name. They just called it the Balle D. Not sexy. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 7, 2014, 02:59 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Oh, and by the way... The Balle D wasn't only the first spitzer (there, happy? ) bullet employed by a military, it was also the first boat tailed bullet employed by a military. The boat tail wasn't extensive, bit it was there... Last interesting tidbit about the Balle D? It wasn't a jacketed bullet. It was a piece of lathe turned bronze. In other words... solid bronze. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 8, 2014, 10:40 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"spitzerschloss" (German for "pointed bullet" I think)" What I'm coming up with is that spitzerschloss means, literally, "pointed closed." Granted, that's an online translator, but I think it points to the fact that the bullet is a pointed full metal jacket. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 8, 2014, 10:57 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Speaking of boattailed bullets, after World War I the US military started looking at increasing the range of its machine guns, so it started looking at a heavier, boattailed bullet. In the 1920s the M1 bullet was adopted, a 172-gr. boattail. The immediate effect was that just about every military shooting range in the states became obsolete because the new bullet almost doubled the range of the earlier 150-gr. flat base bullet. It also substantially increased recoil when firing from the M1903 Springfield. In 1938 the military went back to the 150-gr. flatbase bullet, only with a gilding metal jacket, not the original cupronickel jacket, and called it the M2. M1 ammunition was slated for use in machine guns, primarily aircraft, where the increased ballistic performance made hitting easier. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 8, 2014, 11:01 AM	#14
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Yup, and after WWII the crimping cannelure was removed from the M1 bullet and it was designated the M72 match bullet. The longest serving sniper/match bullet in US history was developed in the 1920s. Not a bad run at all I think. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

March 8, 2014, 02:00 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"Spitzgeschoss" Yep, you're right, that's the German word. I combined the Americanization with the German and am sort of surprised I got anything back at all! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 10, 2014, 03:12 PM	#19
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	There are some in .30-03 for sale on gunsinternational.com. One says that it's got a date stamp of 1916, so perhaps the .30-03 was in production longer than I would have ever thought. Unfortunately, other than references to the total number made, and the number made for Russia (http://www.winchestercollector.org/guns/1895.shtml) I can't find any information as to how many were made in the other chamberings. Most people don't know that there were a bunch made in .303 British, too. I'd love to have one of those. Hell, I'd love to have an 1895 of any stripe. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 11, 2014, 12:43 AM	#20
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I agree. Unfortunately, they're always priced beyond my reach. I could swing it, if I had to; but I'm just not willing to pay what most sellers are asking. The only one I really wish I had reconsidered was a nearly-pristine .30-03 with a factory 28" half octagon barrel at the Lehi, Utah Cabela's (I believe it was a 1913, but I could be mistaken). They were only asking $950 for it, because someone had drilled and tapped the barrel for a scope base and there was a bunch of nasty staining on/in the stocks (it looked like it was from brass corrosion). I know those problems are a big deal to a "collector"; but they're nothing to someone like me, that would actually use the oddball for its original purpose. At the time, I wasn't interested in a .30-06 class cartridge. So, I walked away. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.