Man arrested after firing warning shot at burglar in N.H. - Page 4

Edward429451 · February 28, 2012, 11:43 AM

Why would the shot go astray? Do you shoot up into the air?

**Tom Servo** · February 28, 2012, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Why would the shot go astray?

Are you sure it's not going to ricochet off the pavement and into someone's window? Really sure? Bullets don't cease to exist when they miss.

Edward429451 · February 28, 2012, 12:22 PM

That's a good point and well taken. My warning shot was into the grass so I had grass on my mind.
(I am not for warning shots. I have had it work but the conditions were perfect for it.) I am very proud that it worked and that I have never shot anyone or any animals.)

Brian Pfleuger · February 28, 2012, 01:34 PM

Like most things in life, there is no single right answer. Warning shots are clearly a bad idea more often than not, yet there are also clear times when a warning shot is not only NOT wrong but may in fact be the BEST course of action.

There's always a "yeah, well, what if...". It's good that we discuss these things here and think them through "in the calm". There sure isn't time for that when your world suddenly starts to suck.

GM2 · February 28, 2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Why would the shot go astray? Do you shoot up into the air

No I don't shoot up into the air unless I am duck hunting. I was just speaking of my experience and training with Firearms Military 6 yrs -LEO 32 yrs. The policy in my LEO agency is no warning shots .There are good reasons for that policy and I would not expect to have to explain those reasons to responsible and experienced gun owners.

lawnboy · February 28, 2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

If you've been burglarized you would go looking too me thinks.
Unless of course that's a scary idea,to catch someone who stole from you

Can't read this whole thread, but this stood out. I'm sure that going huntin' for the burglar when he has left your property is illegal virtually everywhere unless you are a sworn law enforcement officer.

Also, why not just call it a "miss" instead of a warning shot. Would that get him off the hook??

Salmoneye · February 28, 2012, 03:31 PM

Quote:

I'm sure that going huntin' for the burglar when he has left your property is illegal virtually everywhere unless you are a sworn law enforcement officer.

Can I get a link to this?

lawnboy · February 28, 2012, 04:07 PM

In my state the applicable law is here:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

I'm not a lawyer, but if I did what he did even in my state with its very friendly self defense laws I'd expect legal trouble. The going looking for the guy seems like a bad idea. His defense of being physically feeble and thus afraid for his safety conflicts badly with the fact that he went looking for the burglar.

johnbt · February 28, 2012, 04:12 PM

"why not just call it a "miss" instead of a warning shot."

Because the guy jumped out of a window and was running away? Why were you shooting at all, your life was not in danger.

lawnboy · February 28, 2012, 04:21 PM

Johnbt,

Badly phrased by me. My point was, does it make any difference in this case whether he was intending to shoot the guy or not? To me it doesn't because he wasn't defending himself or even his property. Or even his neighbors property. The burglar was climbing OUT of the window, meaning he was leaving.

I don't see any point in these events as they happened where I'd feel justified using deadly force.

Salmoneye · February 29, 2012, 07:18 AM

Quote:

In my state the applicable law is here:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

Thanks, but I did not ask about the use of 'force'...

I asked for a statute pertaining to your statement that I quoted:

Quote:

I'm sure that going huntin' for the burglar when he has left your property is illegal virtually everywhere unless you are a sworn law enforcement officer.

In fact, rereading your link, it seems apparent that 'force' can in fact be used in this case if it were in WA instead of NH:

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

The man clearly observed the criminal in the act of committing a burglary, so enough 'force' to detain the criminal till the authorities arrived is 'legal'...That in no way condones the firing of a 'warning shot'...Or does it?

lawnboy · February 29, 2012, 11:34 AM

Salmoneye

I dont see where the guy ever claimed to be trying to apprehend anyone. His own claim was the warning shot was in fear for his safety. This fear is a big change of mind as he went looking for confrontation. NH seems to have some kind of stand your ground law but i cant find text to compare.

I think hes on at best shaky legal ground. Better judgement better outcome.

Salmoneye · February 29, 2012, 12:15 PM

I'm confused...

I am not asking about this specific situation...I was asking about your assertion that:

"I'm sure that going huntin' for the burglar when he has left your property is illegal virtually everywhere unless you are a sworn law enforcement officer."

Was just wondering what makes you believe that it would be 'illegal' for me to walk down the road to see if I can locate a 'burglar', or 'suspicious vehicle'...

I am not interested if it is 'rational', or 'prudent'...

I am interested in the legality of it...

johnbt · February 29, 2012, 12:16 PM

"The man clearly observed the criminal in the act of committing a burglary"

You don't know that for a fact. The man could have been an invited guest and the room was on fire so he jumped out of the window. Saying, "He looked and dressed just like the other guy I saw before" doesn't cut it. Too many assumptions.

What we know now doesn't count. That's just Monday morning quarterbacking.

John

P.S. - I was taught never to fire into the ground. On the farms where I learned to shoot as a young child there were too many rocks. We used stumps or logs if we had to waste a shot for some reason.

lawnboy · February 29, 2012, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Was just wondering what makes you believe that it would be 'illegal' for me to walk down the road to see if I can locate a 'burglar', or 'suspicious vehicle'...

I am not interested if it is 'rational', or 'prudent'...

I am interested in the legality of it.

I think it would absolutely be legal for you to walk down the road looking for the burglar or a suspicious vehicle. But "looking" and "going huntin'" aren't the same thing.

Actions can't be pulled out of their context. The totality of his actions as admitted by him tell me that if he had a plan it was a bad one. It seems more likely to me that he didn't have a plan. He was acting in the heat of a moment and when the heat dissipated he was unsure of how to act. So he re-acted and as so often happens in reactions, what followed was not good for him.

Looking at it this way, I say he went huntin'. I say he did not go out with a view to apprehending the suspect and holding him for or delivering him to law enforcement. If I were to do the exact same thing in self defense friendly WA I'd expect similar results.

I don't think it was prudent or rational either. I think that is besides the point. It's like asking if his actions were "right". They could have been "right". But many things that are right aren't legal. Legality is the only thing I'm concerned about. He's closer to illegal than he is to legal. Opinion of course.

Salmoneye · February 29, 2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

You don't know that for a fact. The man could have been an invited guest and the room was on fire so he jumped out of the window. Saying, "He looked and dressed just like the other guy I saw before" doesn't cut it. Too many assumptions.

I saw that the first time it was posted...

It's still a straw-man argument...At the very least, anyone observing someone exiting a premises in such a manner has the 'right' to ask "Where's the fire, buddy?"

Salmoneye · February 29, 2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Legality is the only thing I'm concerned about. He's closer to illegal than he is to legal. Opinion of course.

I fully agree...You just made it sound that you knew of a chapter and verse that said it was "illegal virtually everywhere" to look around the neighborhood after you had been burgled...

I have never considered that it would be 'illegal'...Maybe not the best idea depending on circumstances, but certainly not 'illegal'...

lawnboy · February 29, 2012, 01:17 PM

Quote:

What we know now doesn't count. That's just Monday morning quarterbacking

I have to nit pick this a little. What we (and the cops/legal system) know now is what is likely to get someone arrested given these facts. Statements given and actions taken can allow judgements to be made. If the cops judge that they should arrest you then you get arrested.

February 28, 2012, 04:07 PM	#83
lawnboy Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Location: here Posts: 551	In my state the applicable law is here: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020 I'm not a lawyer, but if I did what he did even in my state with its very friendly self defense laws I'd expect legal trouble. The going looking for the guy seems like a bad idea. His defense of being physically feeble and thus afraid for his safety conflicts badly with the fact that he went looking for the burglar. __________________ "Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum "A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields

February 28, 2012, 04:21 PM	#85
lawnboy Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Location: here Posts: 551	Johnbt, Badly phrased by me. My point was, does it make any difference in this case whether he was intending to shoot the guy or not? To me it doesn't because he wasn't defending himself or even his property. Or even his neighbors property. The burglar was climbing OUT of the window, meaning he was leaving. I don't see any point in these events as they happened where I'd feel justified using deadly force. __________________ "Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum "A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields

February 29, 2012, 11:34 AM	#87
lawnboy Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2011 Location: here Posts: 551	Salmoneye I dont see where the guy ever claimed to be trying to apprehend anyone. His own claim was the warning shot was in fear for his safety. This fear is a big change of mind as he went looking for confrontation. NH seems to have some kind of stand your ground law but i cant find text to compare. I think hes on at best shaky legal ground. Better judgement better outcome. __________________ "Me fail English? That's un-possible!" --Ralph Wiggum "A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her"-- W.C Fields

February 28, 2012, 11:43 AM	#76
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Why would the shot go astray? Do you shoot up into the air?

February 28, 2012, 12:22 PM	#78
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	That's a good point and well taken. My warning shot was into the grass so I had grass on my mind. (I am not for warning shots. I have had it work but the conditions were perfect for it.) I am very proud that it worked and that I have never shot anyone or any animals.)

February 28, 2012, 01:34 PM	#79
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Like most things in life, there is no single right answer. Warning shots are clearly a bad idea more often than not, yet there are also clear times when a warning shot is not only NOT wrong but may in fact be the BEST course of action. There's always a "yeah, well, what if...". It's good that we discuss these things here and think them through "in the calm". There sure isn't time for that when your world suddenly starts to suck.

February 28, 2012, 04:12 PM	#84
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"why not just call it a "miss" instead of a warning shot." Because the guy jumped out of a window and was running away? Why were you shooting at all, your life was not in danger.

February 29, 2012, 12:15 PM	#88
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	I'm confused... I am not asking about this specific situation...I was asking about your assertion that: "I'm sure that going huntin' for the burglar when he has left your property is illegal virtually everywhere unless you are a sworn law enforcement officer." Was just wondering what makes you believe that it would be 'illegal' for me to walk down the road to see if I can locate a 'burglar', or 'suspicious vehicle'... I am not interested if it is 'rational', or 'prudent'... I am interested in the legality of it...

February 29, 2012, 12:16 PM	#89
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"The man clearly observed the criminal in the act of committing a burglary" You don't know that for a fact. The man could have been an invited guest and the room was on fire so he jumped out of the window. Saying, "He looked and dressed just like the other guy I saw before" doesn't cut it. Too many assumptions. What we know now doesn't count. That's just Monday morning quarterbacking. John P.S. - I was taught never to fire into the ground. On the farms where I learned to shoot as a young child there were too many rocks. We used stumps or logs if we had to waste a shot for some reason.