M1A SOCOM-16 or AK

[coldbeer]

Wow really? That's like comparing a pinto to a rolls... get the socom if you can afford it and don't look back.

[B. Lahey]

Wowzers, I need to get me one of those magic pens that turn a 4moa 9-shot group into three tiny 3-shot groups.

[TEXAS TACTICAL]

3 seperate groups...from an 8 round mag. fired group 1 made a scope correction a few clicks up and to the left. Fired group 2, saw the group through the scope and decided to change my point of aim to the 12 o clock position where the green disk meets the white (so that group 2 could still be discernable.) Shot last 2 rounds but could only see the 1 hole. I did not realize the last 2 went through the 1 hole untill I retreaved the target.

I had been shooting garbage turkish 150gr m 80 ball and couldn't get any better than 6" groups at 100 yards. This was all 168 grain federal match. I decided to give some good stuff a try...glad I did.

[AK103K]

There is so much AK junk out there what should I look for when purchasing...brand, type and distributor?

The AK's I had the worst luck with shooting and function wise, were the US assembled guns.

All the guns assembled/barreled in the countries that issued them, all seemed to shoot and function about the same. My SAR and WASR shoot just as good as my Krebs Saiga conversion, and all of them shot better than my Arsenal/Global Trades SSR-85C and a couple of others. The only thing the SSR-85C had going for it, was it was the "prettiest" AK Ive owned. I know the Poly Techs are highly thought of, and they are pretty, but the ones Ive shot, didnt shoot any better than any of my AK's that were foreign made.



Both targets here were shot at 100 yards from cross legged sitting. One was my SOCOM, the other my SAR (I think), both wearing an Aimpoint ML2. At this point, I cant remember which gun shot which, but I really dont think it matters. Now, if the Aimpoint wasnt on the SOCOM, you could double either group, and you'd be close. The AK's shooting iron sights would be very similar to the dots groups.

I really dont have any other SOCOM targets, simply because I never had the gun all that long, and never had a target worth a pic,



Another red dot AK target at 100 again from sitting. Its either the SAR or Saiga, but Im getting CRS, and I cant remember. To give you an idea as to group size, the "head" is 6" wide.



This was shot at 200 yards with my SAR using its factory iron sights. They even have a slight cant to them. The bottom group was fired from a rest to confirm zero, the upper, at a pretty quick cadence fired from sitting. Ammo was Wolf 154 grain SP's. Again, the head is 6".

[Keg]

My Romanian AK could not shoot a group even close to these at 50 yds off a bench.... True story....

[AK103K]

My Romanian AK could not shoot a group even close to these at 50 yds off a bench....

Other than those US guns Ive owned, Ive never really had an issue of any sort with any of the other AK's Ive owned and/or shot. I dont shoot off a bench either, and none of the groups above were fired from one.

If the rifle is properly zeroed, and youre shooting ammo that the gun likes, 3-4" at 100 yards from field positions and using the iron sights should be the norm with any AK. If youre not getting that, then you need to start looking at the weakest link.

[Puddle]

Yep. I get pie-plate groups off-hand at 100 yds with irons all day long with my Romainian WASR. Cheap Wolf ammunition. On a good day I'm good to 150 sometimes 200 yds. But that's all based on how well I'm seeing that day.

For me, pie plate hits are a-ok at 100 yds.

[FALshootist]

To answer the question why the SKS over the AK? For me its the safety. The SKS can be carried with the safety on and be immediately brought to a firing position. As your trigger finger goes into the trigger guard it pushes the safety off. The AK requires you to take you hand out of the firing position to remove the safety and that's really unacceptable in a weapon.

[biohazurd]

Apples and oranges. For a SHTF or general use(Not extreme ranges) The AK is my pick.(IMO i find an AK with an adjustable stock my preferred combat rifle. Over the AR even.) For big game hunting/longer range shooting I would take the m1a everytime.

[TEXAS TACTICAL]

Drop in Krebs safety can be operated by firing hand...it's one of the parts I installed last night and man is it slick.

[Crosshair]

Not trying to start a real debate here, but I am truly curious why someone would give up an AK for an SKS.

Easy

[SR420]

TEXAS TACTICAL Drop in Krebs safety can be operated by firing hand...

Excellent modification, I am very happy with mine!

Accuracy with an Aimpoint T-1 from about 45 or 50 yards away and about 25 feet above the target.
Sub sonic ammunition through a suppressor in the rain. The target is a flattened aluminum can.









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[AK103K]

The AK requires you to take you hand out of the firing position to remove the safety and that's really unacceptable in a weapon.

You can easily sweep the selector down with your hand on the grip, using your middle and/or trigger fingers. You dont need one one of the modified or aftermarket selectors either, the stock part works fine.

Same goes for the mag release.

I dont have large hands, and I can do it easily.

The AK selector also has an advantage that it can be accessed from a couple of different positions, using either the thumb or fingers. If you cradle the rifle in your arms, across your chest, and wrap the fingers of your right hand around the mag, your thumb rests naturally on the selector, and is quickly, easily, and naturally swept off as the gun comes up.

Now, a jewelers file and a couple minutes of your time, will make things work a lot smoother, especially with the mag release. The parts are stampings, and have sharp edges that benefit from a little "breaking", and thats where the file comes in. Once you break those edges, the feeling can be quite dramatic.

I think some of the problem here with the ergo things you hear about the AK's, is just lack of familiarity and experience with them. Spend a little quality time with one, and all the "bad" things seem to magically disappear as you learn how to work the gun. Same goes for any gun, and not just the AK's.

For big game hunting/longer range shooting I would take the m1a everytime.

I think its a little more complicated here than just AK vs M1A. If the rifle was a standard M1A, and youre talking most critters on the continent, and using it for shooting at targets at longer ranges, then yea, the M1A would likely fit that bill. If youre saying the SOCOM fits that bill, especially as it comes out of the box, Id say no.

Its not that the SOCOMs cant shoot at longer distances, its just that they dont do it well, with the iron sights they come with. With a scout scope on the forward rail, or one mounted in a more traditional manner, Im sure youll find the "target" type groups shrink considerably, and they will hold those groups at the longer ranges. Velocity wise, the shorter barrel is always going to be an issue, especially at the loner ranges.

I tried all three on mine, irons, dot, and scout scope, and found the dot to be the most realistic for what the SOCOM is. If I were to do it again, Id ditch the Springfield rail, and go with an Ultimak. It would get the sight lower, allow you to use any mount, and it would deal with the heat better.

As far as "doing it again", I probably wouldnt do it, at least not with a Springfield. Mine had a few issues that were very annoying to me, and Springfield was less than honest with me when I called in about them. Ive owned a number of their guns since the mid 80's, and the difference in quality, fit and finish between the early guns and the current guns, is pretty dramatic. I had trouble with the last seven Springfields I bought. The SOCOM was number seven, and at this point, most likely my last Springfield.

Easy

They really arent all that bad. Most of the complaints, usually trigger slap and canted front sights, came from the early SAR's, and by the time the ban came in the problems were pretty much gone. Personally, Id take one of the Century guns over one of the American "built" guns, without hesitation.

[SR420]

The M8 from UltiMAK is an excellent mount for scout scopes and red dots.

AK103K
As far as "doing it again", I probably wouldnt do it, at least not with a Springfield. Mine had a few issues that were very annoying to me, and Springfield was less than honest with me when I called in about them. Ive owned a number of their guns since the mid 80's, and the difference in quality, fit and finish between the early guns and the current guns, is pretty dramatic. I had trouble with the last seven Springfields I bought. The SOCOM was number seven, and at this point, most likely my last Springfield.

My experience with the M1A was similar (2001 Scout) so I ended up having Smith Enterprise custom build my M14s including their version of the SOCOM from that point forward... there are no Springfield M1As in my collection.

[Come and take it.]

Doesn't barnaul have a 150ish bullet loaded in one of their 7.62x39 cartridges? With a load such as that I bet the difference in power between an AK and a socom would be pretty tight.

I was getting about 2600 fps through a socom I had once but couldn't guarantee that all socom would chrono out at that velocity. I have heard chrono velocities as low as 2300 fps out of a socom.

compare that to the advertised velocity of 2100 fps for the 150 ish bullet in the 7.62x39 from Barnaul the difference is arguable.

[mike0311]

Hello everyone just joined the forum,I to am on the fence about which battle rifle i wish to buy or build,lots of vids on builting ak's,ar's and have been really thinging about sks's also m1a's our way out my prive range.I've handled all of them except the sks.a buddy of mine has a ak-74 chambered in .308.still pondering on it.

[AK103K]

Doesn't barnaul have a 150ish bullet loaded in one of their 7.62x39 cartridges?

I dont remember seeing any Barnaul in anything heavier than 125 grain, but its been awhile since Ive seen any Barnaul at all. Are they selling under that name again? I thought they were selling under the Brown and Silver Bear trademarks now.

I have a couple of cases of Wolf 154 grain SP's that shoot very well. Ive always found Wolf to be very inconsistent, and its usually been my last choice, if I had one. This stuff is on the good side, or at least the lot I got.

When it comes to 7.62x39, Ive always found Barnaul to be the most consistent and accurate, especially their 125 grain SP's. Ive pulled the bullets on Wolf, Barnaul, and a couple of others, and the Barnaul SP was the only one that had a jacketed base. It looked very much like a Sierra Game King bullet. The Wolf Ive pulled had your typical exposed lead, roll crimp base of a FMJ type military bullet. Some of those had smears across the base, which isnt good. This includes their "HP" match bullets, which I think is just a sales gimmick. True match bullets have a "perfect" jacketed base, and a hollow point. The base is more critical to accuracy than the nose of the bullet.

I to am on the fence about which battle rifle i wish to buy or build,lots of vids on builting ak's,ar's

Mike, Id highly suggest you leave the "builds" to your second or third gun, and look for a "good" name factory made rifle for your first.

I know the price of the builds can be appealing, but they can also be very aggravating, if you, or the person who built them, didnt know what they were doing. Ive had a couple of AR's that were home built that "looked" great, but were more trouble than they were worth, and not very good shooters. Im afraid theres a little more to it than just assembling parts. Im not saying there arent decent homebuilds out there, but my experience, or maybe it was just my expectations, with them hasnt been all that good. Seems these days, even some of the factory guns can be a challenge.

The SKS's are OK, but they arent an AK or AR either. Everyone should have at least one, just to get to know them, but I think once you do, youll know why you want that AK or AR more.

[shootniron]

Different kinds of guns. but AK's are a dime a dozen...get the SOCOM.