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Old January 4, 2012, 06:31 PM   #1
passintime
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What does NIB mean to you?

I recently puchased a pistol off of the internet advertised as NIB (not from TFL).

I received the gun today and noticed a few things.

1. It only had one mag. Now, this gun shipped back in the late 1990's with 2 mags when it was new. I only received one.

2. There were several handling marks on it and several scratches. The metal where the lower meets the upper (it was a Ruger Mark series pistol) showed several nicks.

I have PM'd the seller about item #1 asking about the other mag. I have not brought up the other until I sought advice. What would you do in this situation? What does NIB mean to you? When something is sold as NIB, do you expect to get everything that came with it originally? I am not whining, as perhaps I should have inquired whether the gun came with both mags.

Thanks for your input!
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:38 PM   #2
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If buying from a private seller and they use the term NIB, I would expect all the bits and pieces I would have gotten if I had purchased it retail. I would also expect disclosure of excessive handling. IMO, if I had sold the gun you described, unfired LNIB would be a better description. Did you get to see any pictures before hand?
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:42 PM   #3
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There were 2 pictures, but its a stainless gun and the major handling marks were angled away from the camera. Probably should have been more thorough in my requests.
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:42 PM   #4
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I agree with sigcurious, "LNIB" is probably more suited here.

If someone advertises a firearm ( or anything for that matter ) "NIB", then it should be in the original box with all parts that came with the item from the factory. If it came with a sticker, pen, gun lock, or warranty card. . .all of that should be with it.

I would even go as far to say that I would like to have the test fire casings if they were available.

Hope this helps!
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:44 PM   #5
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New In Box

To me NEB means "New In Box" nothing less and nothing more. If I buy something listed as NIB I expect it to be new, undamaged, and complete; in its original packaging with any accessories, manuals, and paperwork that came from factory.
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:46 PM   #6
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NIB ("New In Box") means "Brand new, unfired (other than at factory for proofing), complete with all original accessories." When buying a NIB firearm that's a number of years old, I expect that it won't be covered with rust but IMHO to expect that it has never been handled is unreasonable.

Unless the gun you bought is severely beat up I don't think the handling marks are anything you can legitimately complain about -- unless the seller deliberately sent you fuzzy photos to mask the marks. But it should have come with both magazines plus any boxes, cases, accessories, manuals, etc. that were with it when it left the factory.
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Old January 4, 2012, 06:58 PM   #7
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My criteria for "like NIB" is maybe a little more lenient than others.

-Maybe one or two range trips, certainly no more than a hundred rounds fired.
-Never out "in the field," exposed to the elements, or stored anywhere other than indoors.
-All of the stuff that came from the factory, including manual. I can be forgiving if the factory test fire cases are not included.
-Absolutely no rust, wear, marks, scrapes, scratches, blemishes, or anything other than brand new 100% finish.
-No. Replacement. Parts. If it broke on your first trip to the range and a part was replaced, it is not NIB, even if it was never fired again.
-If it is a Glock, I really want to see that the copper-colored grease is still there. I may give this a pass if all the other criteria are met.

That is if the ad says "like NIB." If it straight says "NIB" it better be brand new, never fired, and exactly like it came from the factory.
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Old January 4, 2012, 07:20 PM   #8
Brian Pfleuger
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I see no distinction between "LNIB" and "NIB" except that the "L" means the gun has been used a little.

NIB means perfect as new, in fact new, unused, complete as originally shipped.

LNIB means perfect as new, very lightly used but with no visible or mechanical indications of having been used, complete, as originally shipped.

If "NIB" means "new", "LNIB".... "like new" must logically mean it appears and acts as new. Otherwise, it's NOT "like" new.
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Old January 4, 2012, 07:21 PM   #9
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Yep, to my way of thinking, NIB means New, in box. No firing, all standard in-box items, just like it came from the factory. Anything less is... less.
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Old January 4, 2012, 07:34 PM   #10
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Ditto New never fired NIB
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Old January 4, 2012, 07:45 PM   #11
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New In Box ...to me means unfired, and largely unhandled ...and everything that came with the gun ( new in box ) ...manuals, etc included....

The problem is ....you're buying off the internet ...and all the perils of "buyer beware" come to mind. Its a reason I never buy off the internet ...regardless of the savings...I don't need the aggravation.
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:02 PM   #12
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My take

As the OP can see, terms mean different things to different people.

For me: NIB means new in the box which only means it hasn't been fired. It could be handled, dropped, cleaned, dry fired, etc.

LNIB to means it probably has been fired.

Just because it is "new" doesn't mean it can't have nicks, scuffs, and other problems. Just the fact it has been around any length of time should account for that.
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:24 PM   #13
dyl
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wear

As for the level of wear:

my expectation (whether correct or not) would be that a NIB gun would only be handled as much as a pistol sold "new" behind the counter of a gun store - or less. I've bought guns that have been handled before and and it sat well with me so "new" to me (and probably most folks) apparently doesn't mean "untouched".

How much wear can a "new" gun in a brick-and-mortar store accumulate? The most I'd imagine is a few racks of the slide, a few dry fires, everyone tests the reach to the controls, maybe a field strip and that's it. I don't see the man behind the counter letting the gun get scratched up or monkeyed with too badly.

Sorry you didn't get what you were hoping for! Perhaps you can let him know what you found and maybe get a partial refund for the degradation in value. You never know, he could have been careless or could have been shady. It may be worth letting him know even if it's for a subtle "I know what you're up to"

Depending on the finish, you may be able to take those scratches out yourself since it's stainless steel.

Last edited by dyl; January 4, 2012 at 08:36 PM.
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:25 PM   #14
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NIB = NEW IN BOX with all oem equipment
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:34 PM   #15
dyl
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I kind of disagree that wear comes with age automatically.

There are collectors of firearms who have kept old guns in great condition. Or maybe a more common example: safe queens. They don't get scrapes unless they are taken out and used.

My opinion: Wear comes naturally with use over time.

This analogy may not apply to firearms, but if you buy a new car you don't demand that no one has sat in the seat, no one has touched the door knob. But we would raise the point when we inspect the exterior/interior about defects in the paint/finish, and scratches. Then ask the value to be compensated for.
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:48 PM   #16
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NIB to me means it was never fired and never sold to/bought by an individual and it goes without saying it comes with EVERYTHING it does when bought new. Cable locks, manuals, page to apply for warranty, spent casings if provided, test targets if provided,mags, all interchangeable backstraps, aforementioned items still in ziploc bags if applicable, E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G!

LNIB is all a private user can sell as IMO.

IF I buy a car from a dealer, can I then sell it to you as new? Not unless I'm a dealer. Same goes for guns in my book. Can I sell it as Like New? Surely, but new? Not a chance in hell I am buying a gun at a new price, or expecting it to be same as new from an individual.

I've bought new and the guns still had some scratches on them. i don't know that I would equate scratches with wear, I would have to evaluate it on a case by case basis.
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:49 PM   #17
passintime
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To add to this post, the person on the internet from whom I bought this gun has an FFL and is a dealer.
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Old January 4, 2012, 08:54 PM   #18
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Obviously, LNIB and NIB means different things to different folks.

I'm not sticking up for the seller - but - was he the original purchaser? If not, he may not have known that they were originally furnished with an additional magazine.

As with any purchase on the internet - especially if something is used or even pre-owned and NIB - you should always go on the assumption of "buyer beware".

I personally think that a lot of factors figure in - is it being purchased as a "collector's item" - example - a Colt Python that is NIB or LNIB that will be a safe queen or is it a pistol that is going to be used and a shooter? If so, it's gooing to get wear when you use it and if it has a couple of "handling marks" and you didn't pay top price for it - you either live with it or send it back.

On any online auction or direct sale - if in doubt - contact the seller and ask questions - just what is included, are there any handling marks, has it been shot, etc.? Can you furnish me with a complete listing of what is included? I'd ask these questions even though it was advertised as NIB. Before purchasing, find out what the return policy is if it doesn't live up to your expectations. If not enough photos or views are shown, then ask for additional photos.

I personally have sold hundreds of items on online auctions and I make it a point to describe everything I can about the item - and, I have often furnished extra images to a potential buyer. I have also answered hundreds of questions about the items. I have also purchased a number of guns that were LNIB or NIB but were of a mfg. date of as long ago as twenty-five years ago. The seller was selling them as such but I also realize that they may have been handled - and some of them did have handling marks on them. The price was agreeable to me as well as the seller so there wasn't an issue - I was planning on putting even more handling marks on them as I used them.

I fully understand the OP's thinking and am not being flip about it. In the end, it's a 50/50 situation. Because we all think and interpret things differently, as a buyer, you need to ask questions and the seller needs to answer them - you don't "assume" anything. If the seller isn't willing to answer your questions and communicate - walk away.
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Old January 4, 2012, 09:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dyl
I kind of disagree that wear comes with age automatically.

There are collectors of firearms who have kept old guns in great condition. Or maybe a more common example: safe queens. They don't get scrapes unless they are taken out and used.
This is very true. A lot depends on the attitude, orientation, and discretion of the gun shop where a firearm is originally sold. Back when Colt was selling their original WW1 replica, the Model O1911 (not the later O1918, the O1911 was the limited production one) I looked at a couple in two different, small gun shops about equi-distant from me. One was out in a display case, the owner allowed anyone to handle it, and even though it had never been sold or shot -- it was getting "shopworn." It was "NIB," nut it didn't look all that new. The other FFL took the attitude that he knew this was a limited production piece and he assumed there was a good chance whoever bought it would never fire it -- so he kept it under wraps. He did allow me to see it and even to handle it, but he made it VERY clear that the slide had never been racked and that the slide WOULD NOT be racked until it was sold, and then only if the buyer elected to do so.

The funniest part is that the guy with the shopworn example was asking more than the guy with the pristine example. Unfortunately, both were a little more than I felt I could afford.
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Old January 4, 2012, 09:46 PM   #20
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I buy a lot online so I'll tell you, to me NIB is new, as it came from the factory, with all the goodies, and no nicks, scratches, or dents. It's NEW.

LNIB might have a few handling marks, but no real damage, and with all the goodies that came from the factory. Like new but not new.

Unfired means it might have some scratches and dings from handling, no box or goodies unless it's mentioned in the ad. But it has not been fired except for factory testing. No turn ring on a revolver, no carbon in the guts for an auto.

Unfortunately a lot of sellers figure once you have their gun in your hands you'll just love it so much you won't want to return it. Unless what you got is a rarity, I'd return it and look for another one.
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Old January 4, 2012, 10:03 PM   #21
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To me NIB would have to be no handling marks, all items originally shipped from the manufacturer. Including owner's manual, warranty registration card, advertising, and original packaging material.
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Old January 4, 2012, 10:23 PM   #22
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What's hard to understand? Does anyone believe that a "new" pistol is the same as a "lightly used" or "almosr new" pistol?
The seller lied, or at best intentionally deceived the buyer.
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Old January 4, 2012, 10:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
NIB to me means it was never fired and never sold to/bought by an individual and it goes without saying it comes with EVERYTHING it does when bought new. Cable locks, manuals, page to apply for warranty, spent casings if provided, test targets if provided,mags, all interchangeable backstraps, aforementioned items still in ziploc bags if applicable, E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G!

LNIB is all a private user can sell as IMO.

IF I buy a car from a dealer, can I then sell it to you as new? Not unless I'm a dealer. Same goes for guns in my book. Can I sell it as Like New? Surely, but new? Not a chance in hell I am buying a gun at a new price, or expecting it to be same as new from an individual.

I've bought new and the guns still had some scratches on them. i don't know that I would equate scratches with wear, I would have to evaluate it on a case by case basis.
I agree w/ ripnbst. And LNIB means as it came from factory, all the accesories, never fired. Anything less is "almost LNIB" with disclosures for fireing, blems, etc.
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Old January 4, 2012, 10:42 PM   #24
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New in box means NEW, Not previously owned, full factory warranty .

Second hand, means_ _ second hand.
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Old January 4, 2012, 10:57 PM   #25
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If the seller is a NON dealer then NIB--New In Box means that the seller is the only owner, the gun is COMPLETELY unused, appears new in EVERY respect, was purchased in the VERY recent past (days or weeks at most) and comes with ALL original factory packing and accessories.

The only conditions I would accept as being accurate for a previously sold gun being described as NIB (by a NON dealer) would be something along the lines of:
I bought this gun, took it home and on the way home, I decided I didn't want it. So I (never took it out of the box/took it out of the box to look at it but didn't disassemble it or shoot it.) I called the gun store the next day but they wouldn't take it back so here we are a week later and I'm selling it.
If it's been shot, field stripped, pulled out and dryfired a few times for fun, cleaned a couple of times as practice, lubricated with the user's favorite motor oil, etc. then describing it as NIB is not accurate. If the manual is dogeared or the anti-corrosive packing paper is missing then it's not NIB. If it's been in the bottom of a closet for 15 years then it's not NIB even if all the other conditions apply.

It MIGHT be LNIB--LIKE New In Box assuming that it appears new in EVERY respect and comes with ALL original factory packing and accessories.

If the seller is a dealer then NIB means NEVER previously sold. PERIOD.
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