Cleaner powder for .45? - Page 2

AustinMike · December 28, 2004, 12:25 AM

I took my first batch of Clays loads out today. 230 gr Rainier with 4 grains of Clays. Very pleasant target load! They functioned great in my Kimber 1911 and Taurus PT145. Looks to be a good clean load. Thanks to ya'll that recommended it. I may also have to try some Universal Clays for heavier loads.

ZWolfgang · December 28, 2004, 12:46 AM

Made up my first batch of .357 target loads using AA#5. Gave it 10 gr. of AA#5 pushing a Rainier 140gr. plated FP. From my 3" S&W M13 I averaged 1014 fps measured at about 12' from the muzzle.

Observations on this powder... it's a little stinky and a little dirty as compared to the Power Pistol I have used. Seems comparable to 2400 in with regard to cleanliness of burn - but obviously having much less power. It has a moderate amount of flash also, but more of a darker yellow flash, rather than the bright white flash of PowerPistol. My only concern with AA#5's dirtiness and stinkiness is that my practice room is very small and ventilation is not exceptionally forceful until I open the door (which I usually do during reloads). I think my next batch of target/practice loads will be made up with PowerPistol... it burns much cleaner. And the bright flash PP exhibits during practice is no big deal.

So I found AA#5 to be so-so; I really don't want to use it anymore, but I'm sure I can find some way to use it up. I'll bet most of you have particl containers of powders around that you don't really care to use any more of, right?

My search will continue for a clean burning powder with low flash. Anyone have any idea if AA#7 or AA#9 are any cleaner than AA#5? What about flash?

I have a fresh, new pound of Universal Clays, so from what I've read here, I'm excited to try it out next. I'm hoping it doesn't have much "flash", in which case I may use it for practice as well as for defense loads with my S&W and Ruger models with 3" barrels. Clean, moderate to stronger power, and low flash is what I'm looking for. Need fairly quick burning too for my 3" barrels on the .357's.

Cal4D4 · December 28, 2004, 02:35 AM

AA#7 is very clean burning and as low a flash as any I've found. My big gripe with it is the amount of charge for a given level of performance. Although much slower burning than PP or Hodgdon's Universal it generally is used in midrange loadings. Hodgdon's Universal works well - clean, good ignition, modest flash - in mid range loads at 60% or so of the charge weight required of AA#7. Universal is also bulky which helps visually in those skinny, deep .357 cases.

ZWolfgang · December 28, 2004, 03:53 AM

Cal4d4... well I was about ready to pass right over AA#7 after my stinky experience with AA#5.

But it sounds like I should give #7 a try if Universal doesn't quite "get it" for me. From what you sau, though, Universal may well give me just what I'm seeking... a fairly warm defense loading (140 gr. JHP at 1150 fps from the 3" tube), not a full-on HOT loading (125 gr. at 1450 fps) that meters well and burns cleanly with little to no flash. Thanks for the info.

WESHOOT2 · December 28, 2004, 07:08 AM

Hodgdon says virtually all (we're talkin' handgun) powders leave about the same amount of speckles, EXCEPT their miraculous Titegroup, which ejects the least unburnt residues.

AustinMike · December 28, 2004, 08:46 AM

Not sure how we jumped to .357 from .45

but I've used AA #9 for some time in my .44 mag loads. It burns pretty clean and seems to have good energy. I'm messing with H110 at the moment. Initially, it seems a tad dirtier than #9, but it makes a much bigger boom. Wish I had a Chrony!

ZWolfgang · December 29, 2004, 03:52 AM

AustinMike... I'm the culprit who jumped to .357. But still in keeping with your original intent of trying to determine which powders are the clean ones! Sorry.

AustinMike · December 29, 2004, 09:18 AM

No worries, ZWolfgang. I was just razzin' you.

It's all good. I'm also looking for the cleanest loads in .357 and .44 mag. I'm lazy and hate cleaning guns!

-Mike

crazylegs · December 29, 2004, 01:42 PM

Another vote here for Straight Clays. 4.2 grains behind a 200 grn. LRNWC yeilds xcellent results out of my G30 (KKM) barrel
crazylegs

ZWolfgang · December 29, 2004, 02:54 PM

Mike... my quest for clean burning is as much for reducing stinky, dirty air in my practice room as for reducing cleaning tasks... until I started shooting in a small (long) room, I never realized how much gunk comes out along with the bullet... polluting the air and littering the room with ash and, depending on the load and gun) unburnt powder. I have to open the door and turn on a huge fan nearly with every reload.

PDshooter · December 29, 2004, 09:14 PM

Unique!
Just bought a new can for all my 38 shooting. WOW! is cleaned-up!

ZWolfgang · December 29, 2004, 10:02 PM

Last night's experience with Universal left me deciding to try it for .45 acp, but give up on it for .357. It just doesn't develop enough power and while it's a little cleaner than AA#5, it's no where near as clean as PowerPistol, nor does it develop the power that PP offers.

Quite interestingly, PowerPistol is grouped with relatively fast powders (Unique, Universal, 231, etc.), yet offers substantially more power than those powders... it offers potency equivalent to much slower powders (AA#9, 2400, 4227). And it requires significantly less quantity to achieve that power (saves money), burns more quickly (excellent for those of us who like to shoot .357's with 2.5", and 3" barrels), is phenomenally clean burning, and it meters beautifully. Damned impressive powder! Quite remarkable, really.

The more I try other powders, the more I realize how great PowerPistol really is and the more I like it! I'd say if any powder deserves the description "unique", it is Power Pistol!

Cal4D4 · December 30, 2004, 02:02 AM

steve's burning rates
shows Power Pistol as faster than Universal, AA5 and others

reloading bench burning rate
shows PP as slower than Universal.

Burning rate is a little hard to pin down with some powders sometimes. 800X, Power pistol and Blue Dot all have shown different characteristics when used outside (above and below) their indicated (by manufacturer) pressure ranges.

ZWolfgang · December 30, 2004, 04:45 AM

Cal... my use of PowerPistol or any powder is within generally recommended pressure ranges for caliber. Both of those charts (as well as others in reloading books) do group PowerPistol in the same *general* range as Unique and Universal with regard to burn rate. And as Steve indicates on his chart, exact ranking of a given powder above or below any other particular powder is of little meaning. The exact positioning of powders on burn rate charts is quite variable... thus the various positions given on any chart are to be taken generally, not precisely.

My only point is that Power Pistol is "grouped" with such powders as Unique and Universal when it comes to burn rate, yet offers power comparable to such powders as AA#9 and 2400, which are grouped no where near Unique or Universal. To my knowledge, prior to the existence of PowerPistol, to gain higher power, one had to choose powders with slower burn rates, whether that was desired or not.

Now, for those who desire it, you can have relatively high power from a powder with a relatively fast burn rate, smaller charge, and exceptionally clean burning.

I know of no other powder with such characteristics which, for my purposes, is exactly what I desire for loads intended for shorter barrel .357's: a faster, very clean burning powder which develops ample (though not massive) power! I'm sure that's why so many people who try Power Pistol love it. And this powder is also excellent for lighter loads when exceptionally clean burning and smaller charges are desired. As such, I think it's more versatile than most powders out there.

Of course for heavy magnum loads, one would still look to much slower powders.

Cal4D4 · December 30, 2004, 11:19 AM

Agreed, PP is good stuff. My post was only a comment on the nature of burning rates. I've heard that PP was originally developed around the concept of the small case volume and high pressure range of the 9mm. Very impressive in others also.

ZWolfgang · December 30, 2004, 02:18 PM

Cal... yes, I think you're right... the initial application was 9mm... and who knows, it's probably good in small shotgun shells too!

encore · January 4, 2005, 12:38 PM

i like 700x for being clean and it works well in most calibers for semi-auto pistols

December 28, 2004, 12:25 AM	#26
AustinMike Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 171	Clays rocks! I took my first batch of Clays loads out today. 230 gr Rainier with 4 grains of Clays. Very pleasant target load! They functioned great in my Kimber 1911 and Taurus PT145. Looks to be a good clean load. Thanks to ya'll that recommended it. I may also have to try some Universal Clays for heavier loads.

December 28, 2004, 12:46 AM	#27
ZWolfgang Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 254	Made up my first batch of .357 target loads using AA#5. Gave it 10 gr. of AA#5 pushing a Rainier 140gr. plated FP. From my 3" S&W M13 I averaged 1014 fps measured at about 12' from the muzzle. Observations on this powder... it's a little stinky and a little dirty as compared to the Power Pistol I have used. Seems comparable to 2400 in with regard to cleanliness of burn - but obviously having much less power. It has a moderate amount of flash also, but more of a darker yellow flash, rather than the bright white flash of PowerPistol. My only concern with AA#5's dirtiness and stinkiness is that my practice room is very small and ventilation is not exceptionally forceful until I open the door (which I usually do during reloads). I think my next batch of target/practice loads will be made up with PowerPistol... it burns much cleaner. And the bright flash PP exhibits during practice is no big deal. So I found AA#5 to be so-so; I really don't want to use it anymore, but I'm sure I can find some way to use it up. I'll bet most of you have particl containers of powders around that you don't really care to use any more of, right? My search will continue for a clean burning powder with low flash. Anyone have any idea if AA#7 or AA#9 are any cleaner than AA#5? What about flash? I have a fresh, new pound of Universal Clays, so from what I've read here, I'm excited to try it out next. I'm hoping it doesn't have much "flash", in which case I may use it for practice as well as for defense loads with my S&W and Ruger models with 3" barrels. Clean, moderate to stronger power, and low flash is what I'm looking for. Need fairly quick burning too for my 3" barrels on the .357's. Last edited by ZWolfgang; December 28, 2004 at 02:35 AM.

December 28, 2004, 07:08 AM	#30
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	ejecta Hodgdon says virtually all (we're talkin' handgun) powders leave about the same amount of speckles, EXCEPT their miraculous Titegroup, which ejects the least unburnt residues. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" Last edited by WESHOOT2; December 28, 2004 at 07:09 AM. Reason: sloppy morning spelling, ay?

January 4, 2005, 12:38 PM	#42
encore Junior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Posts: 10	clean powder i like 700x for being clean and it works well in most calibers for semi-auto pistols

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December 28, 2004, 02:35 AM	#28
Cal4D4 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2001 Location: southern california Posts: 679	AA#7 is very clean burning and as low a flash as any I've found. My big gripe with it is the amount of charge for a given level of performance. Although much slower burning than PP or Hodgdon's Universal it generally is used in midrange loadings. Hodgdon's Universal works well - clean, good ignition, modest flash - in mid range loads at 60% or so of the charge weight required of AA#7. Universal is also bulky which helps visually in those skinny, deep .357 cases.

December 28, 2004, 03:53 AM	#29
ZWolfgang Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 254	Cal4d4... well I was about ready to pass right over AA#7 after my stinky experience with AA#5. But it sounds like I should give #7 a try if Universal doesn't quite "get it" for me. From what you sau, though, Universal may well give me just what I'm seeking... a fairly warm defense loading (140 gr. JHP at 1150 fps from the 3" tube), not a full-on HOT loading (125 gr. at 1450 fps) that meters well and burns cleanly with little to no flash. Thanks for the info.

December 28, 2004, 08:46 AM	#31
AustinMike Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 171	Not sure how we jumped to .357 from .45 but I've used AA #9 for some time in my .44 mag loads. It burns pretty clean and seems to have good energy. I'm messing with H110 at the moment. Initially, it seems a tad dirtier than #9, but it makes a much bigger boom. Wish I had a Chrony!

December 29, 2004, 03:52 AM	#32
ZWolfgang Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 254	AustinMike... I'm the culprit who jumped to .357. But still in keeping with your original intent of trying to determine which powders are the clean ones! Sorry.

December 29, 2004, 09:18 AM	#33
AustinMike Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 171	No worries, ZWolfgang. I was just razzin' you. It's all good. I'm also looking for the cleanest loads in .357 and .44 mag. I'm lazy and hate cleaning guns! -Mike

December 29, 2004, 01:42 PM	#34
crazylegs Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2004 Posts: 145	Another vote here for Straight Clays. 4.2 grains behind a 200 grn. LRNWC yeilds xcellent results out of my G30 (KKM) barrel crazylegs

December 29, 2004, 02:54 PM	#35
ZWolfgang Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 254	Mike... my quest for clean burning is as much for reducing stinky, dirty air in my practice room as for reducing cleaning tasks... until I started shooting in a small (long) room, I never realized how much gunk comes out along with the bullet... polluting the air and littering the room with ash and, depending on the load and gun) unburnt powder. I have to open the door and turn on a huge fan nearly with every reload.

December 29, 2004, 09:14 PM	#36
PDshooter Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 607	Unique! Just bought a new can for all my 38 shooting. WOW! is cleaned-up!

December 29, 2004, 10:02 PM	#37
ZWolfgang Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 254	Last night's experience with Universal left me deciding to try it for .45 acp, but give up on it for .357. It just doesn't develop enough power and while it's a little cleaner than AA#5, it's no where near as clean as PowerPistol, nor does it develop the power that PP offers. Quite interestingly, PowerPistol is grouped with relatively fast powders (Unique, Universal, 231, etc.), yet offers substantially more power than those powders... it offers potency equivalent to much slower powders (AA#9, 2400, 4227). And it requires significantly less quantity to achieve that power (saves money), burns more quickly (excellent for those of us who like to shoot .357's with 2.5", and 3" barrels), is phenomenally clean burning, and it meters beautifully. Damned impressive powder! Quite remarkable, really. The more I try other powders, the more I realize how great PowerPistol really is and the more I like it! I'd say if any powder deserves the description "unique", it is Power Pistol!

December 30, 2004, 02:02 AM	#38
Cal4D4 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2001 Location: southern california Posts: 679	steve's burning rates shows Power Pistol as faster than Universal, AA5 and others reloading bench burning rate shows PP as slower than Universal. Burning rate is a little hard to pin down with some powders sometimes. 800X, Power pistol and Blue Dot all have shown different characteristics when used outside (above and below) their indicated (by manufacturer) pressure ranges.

December 30, 2004, 04:45 AM	#39
ZWolfgang Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 254	Cal... my use of PowerPistol or any powder is within generally recommended pressure ranges for caliber. Both of those charts (as well as others in reloading books) do group PowerPistol in the same general range as Unique and Universal with regard to burn rate. And as Steve indicates on his chart, exact ranking of a given powder above or below any other particular powder is of little meaning. The exact positioning of powders on burn rate charts is quite variable... thus the various positions given on any chart are to be taken generally, not precisely. My only point is that Power Pistol is "grouped" with such powders as Unique and Universal when it comes to burn rate, yet offers power comparable to such powders as AA#9 and 2400, which are grouped no where near Unique or Universal. To my knowledge, prior to the existence of PowerPistol, to gain higher power, one had to choose powders with slower burn rates, whether that was desired or not. Now, for those who desire it, you can have relatively high power from a powder with a relatively fast burn rate, smaller charge, and exceptionally clean burning. I know of no other powder with such characteristics which, for my purposes, is exactly what I desire for loads intended for shorter barrel .357's: a faster, very clean burning powder which develops ample (though not massive) power! I'm sure that's why so many people who try Power Pistol love it. And this powder is also excellent for lighter loads when exceptionally clean burning and smaller charges are desired. As such, I think it's more versatile than most powders out there. Of course for heavy magnum loads, one would still look to much slower powders.

December 30, 2004, 11:19 AM	#40
Cal4D4 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2001 Location: southern california Posts: 679	Agreed, PP is good stuff. My post was only a comment on the nature of burning rates. I've heard that PP was originally developed around the concept of the small case volume and high pressure range of the 9mm. Very impressive in others also.

December 30, 2004, 02:18 PM	#41
ZWolfgang Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 254	Cal... yes, I think you're right... the initial application was 9mm... and who knows, it's probably good in small shotgun shells too!