Help us pick a pistol, for LEO. - Page 3

Ibmikey · August 30, 2015, 10:51 PM

Having administered entry level tests where often we would get 5-700 applicants for two or three job openings, the written and first interview will lessen the pack to manageable numbers with a long road yet in front of the applicant. The testing/background/hiring process normally takes months to complete with a final list of qualified applicaants provided for administrators to make the final choice (s). I wish your boy luck but have him continue to test with other organizations that are hiring if he wants to narrow his personal odds. I had an easier time when hired as only 104 persons sought two positions, i made one of those and retired partially thirty years later and after another 13 years part time i finally made a clean break.
I loved my service as a Police Officer but If i were pursuing a career today LE would not be on my list.

Ignition Override · August 31, 2015, 01:28 AM

Mike38:

Has your son-in-law handled any CZ handguns, tried the triggers, noticed the engineering/manufacturing quality etc?
The CZ-75 variants might be worth considering, being used by some US police depts., Czech, Slovakian police, Brazil, Russia, Israeli Shin Bet (intell. and their "FBI/MI5" plus their Yamas: Special Ops), Delta Force, among others.

He is familiar with Delta Force, the US Army's counter-terrorist units? They would seem to require the most reliable, effective guns.
When Russia buys and issues a Czech gun, to me that also says something.

Pilot · August 31, 2015, 04:59 AM

I'd suggest a CZ also. If he wants polymer, the P-09 is a good full size choice. If he wants something more compact the P-07, PCR, and P-01 are all good, lighter weight choices.

**Aguila Blanca** · August 31, 2015, 06:08 AM

I'm a little late to the party but I'll just add that around here officers do not purchase their duty weapons, the departments issue them. I believe our state law provides that police officers are police officers 24/7, so pretty much all officers carry when off duty -- they may be required to do so, I'm not certain. The departments don't issue weapons for off-duty carry, but they do have guidelines, either in the form of an approved list or an enumeration of specific criteria that the gun must satisfy.

Your son would probably be making a serious mistake buying a gun before he gets placed with a department and knows what they allow or issue. You can't assume that a Glock is always safe. The department on the next town to mine issues SIGs in .45 Auto, single stack. I knew of another agency that was issuing SIGs in .357 SIG.

Tell him to cool his jets until he knows where he'll be working.

Cyanide971 · August 31, 2015, 08:14 AM

Good luck to your son!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibmikey

I wish your boy luck but have him continue to test with other organizations that are hiring if he wants to narrow his personal odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Your son would probably be making a serious mistake buying a gun before he gets placed with a department and knows what they allow or issue.

Very good points indeed, especially considering the vast number of applicants and, the variety of issued sidearms between different agencies and whatnot.

For example, where I live there are three primary options for potential LEO's; one is at local level with either the city or bordering county, both of which issue Glock 22's, and then two at state level, one of which issues Glock 21's whereas the other issues Glock 37's.

2450paul · September 5, 2015, 09:26 PM

I've read 85% of PDs use Glocks

L-2 · September 12, 2015, 01:30 PM

The percentages are constantly varying. From Glock's website (and we know that isn't updated regularly) the USA % is 65%; but in some states, the percentages are in the 80's; so a particular state could be at 85%.

At a Glock Armorers' class in 2013, the Glock Rep for the western states did say HI and CA were in the 80+% for law enforcement use.

manta49 · September 12, 2015, 01:59 PM

There is a lot more to being a police officer than what handgun they carry, something that they are unlikely ever to need. As for the caliber i would go for the most tried tested and used handgun caliber ever the 9 MM. I am not a Glock fan but i can see the attraction to police officer, cheap reliable light and easy to use.

SpareMag · September 13, 2015, 09:16 AM

Seems to me the easiest option would be for him to follow what other officers carry on whatever force hires him on. Most likely the force will also have LEO discounts with a local supplier.

If you go odd caliber, the force may not provide rounds for training, and I can envision a civil issue if the forces uses .32 PPKs and your S-I-L takes a perp with a Desert Eagle .50.

jason.copas · September 13, 2015, 12:48 PM

Personally, I would recommend he buy something he would be willing to carry OFF duty. And a smaller platform makes a good argument for a 9mm, especially with a new shooter. Tiny little 40 cal's can get brutal in the recoil department.

Whatever department he ends up at, assuming he makes it through all the red tape, may or may not allow whatever service size gun he buys. But I believe most police departments are more lenient on off duty weapons, and it gives him something to practice with in the meantime. Not to mention it can serve as a CCW weapon (he has a permit) as well.

357 Python · September 13, 2015, 03:37 PM

As stated earlier most departments issue a particular duty weapon or have a list of approved weapons they will allow officers to purchase for duty use. Some departments require their officers to use the department issued duty weapon until they come off of probation then they are allowed to purchase their own from the list. News flash, not all departments issue a Glock pistol. My department still issues the Beretta 92FS pistol. If your SIL is allowed to choose his duty weapon take him to a range that rents guns so he can try as many as possible. If he is given a list he can try those on that list without actually buying until he makes his decision. As for caliber most departments choose that as well. Many departments will provide the officer with duty ammo so that everything is uniform. The idea is that an officer who has his own ammo may be considered by some attorneys as a rogue cop gone bad, the department ammo isn't lethal enough so the cop got his own. I know it sounds screwy and it is but lawyers (both defense and prosecutors) can be idiots where ammo is concerned. If the department allows him to choose the gun and caliber the range trip can be extremely valuable. He can try the various combinations until he find one that works for him.

lefteye · September 13, 2015, 04:40 PM

Quote:

I know it sounds screwy and it is but lawyers (both defense and prosecutors) can be idiots where ammo is concerned.

Lawyers who defend or prosecute criminal defendants in cases involving firearms are much more likely to have knowledge about firearms, particularly handguns and handgun ammunition, than most people have. Their knowledge may come from personal firearms experience and/or their experience with firearms experts.

GM1967 · September 13, 2015, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Lawyers who defend or prosecute criminal defendants in cases involving firearms are much more likely to have knowledge about firearms, particularly handguns and handgun ammunition, than most people have. Their knowledge may come from personal firearms experience and/or their experience with firearms experts.

Having been on a jury not long ago in a firearms case, I kind of disagree with the above....I don't think either of the lawyers involved knew anything about guns, I don't think the judge knew much about them, and I seemed to be the only gun enthusiast on the jury. I'm not so sure the police involved knew all that much about guns either. The lawyers aren't selected for their gun knowledge.

I did think it was very sad that a nice Dan Wesson Model 15 .357 was going to get destroyed. Although it had already been treated with some chemical for the fingerprint process (which yielded no usable prints), a sort of sticky white residue all over it -- I think they said it was superglue. I wonder if that can come off without harm to the gun.

Related to another recent post about "What guns criminals carry", this revolver was only loaded with three rounds...the other cylinders had been empty. I wonder if the cylinder had even been closed properly so that the hammer would fall on a live round when the trigger was pulled.

But back to the topic at hand, as others suggested, he should wait until he knows he's hired and he knows what guns the department will allow him to carry (if he gets a choice at all, which seems to be rare) before he buys himself a gun. It probably will be a Glock or S&W M&P in 9mm. I'd go for a Springfield XDm myself (I have one), but the others are fine choices.

lefteye · September 13, 2015, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Having been on a jury not long ago in a firearms case, I kind of disagree with the above....I don't think either of the lawyers involved knew anything about guns, I don't think the judge knew much about them, and I seemed to be the only gun enthusiast on the jury. I'm not so sure the police involved knew all that much about guns either. The lawyers aren't selected for their gun knowledge.

I certainly don't question your recent jury experience and I agree prosecutors and defense lawyers aren't selected for there gun knowedge. While I don't know if any prosecutors or defense lawyers have any personal firearms experience, I would expect attorneys in criminal cases involving firearms would learn something about firearms from dealing with testimony and exhibits relating to firearms. I am a retired government attorney and confess that at the time I accepted the job offer I knew virtually nothing about the subject matter that became the focus of my career. (I was never involved in any criminal case.)

I have read virtually all of your posts on this forum. I sincerely appreciate your experience and expertise.

And yes, I agree with your recommendations in this thread.

Ibmikey · September 13, 2015, 09:46 PM

Having been called into Superior Court on a number of occasions to testify as an expert witness on firearms, i found most attorneys were content to rely on such expert testimony rather than become experts or even familar with weapons themselves.

lefteye · September 13, 2015, 10:28 PM

Do you mean the opposing attorney did not cross-examine you or did not ask any questions about firearms? Certainly the attorney calling you as an expert witness had to ask you questions in his live direct examination in court (unless your testimony was submitted in written form such as a deposition).

wmg1299 · September 14, 2015, 08:40 AM

I would recommend that he not buy anything at all before he is accepted into a police academy. A lot of potential recruits think that they can help themselves by buying their own gun and practicing before the academy starts. They are often wrong.

When I went through a police academy 10 years ago, myself and two of my academy mates had never fired a handgun. Many recruits were prior military. One of my academy mates had grown up around guns and considered himself somewhat of an expert. All of our instructors agreed that they prefer to teach recruits with military experience or no experience at all. A great deal of our training time consisted of instructors addressing and correcting the bad habits of our “expert.”

The vast majority of agencies have a short list of approved firearms that they will either issue or arrange for officers to purchase at a discount from a supplier. Certified academy instructors will often provide recruits with the opportunity to fire multiple approved weapons, and will make an assessment of each shooter’s physical attributes. Experienced instructors can provide valuable input on which model, caliber, grip and sight arrangement will maximize each recruit’s performance after accounting for factors such as hand size, grip strength, and ability to handle recoil.

I wish your son-in-law the best of luck in his chosen career. My advice would be for him to be patient in this matter. Exercising patience when there is time to do so will serve him well as a law enforcement officer.

Ibmikey · September 14, 2015, 09:37 AM

Lefteye, I have testified on both sides although as a working LE officer itt was normally for the prosecution. My testimony was given in court and subject to cross, i was not challenged to any serious degree regarding my testimony on the issue at hand during each appearance. Council was not ignorant of firearms and did ask questions but eventually accepted the "expert" testimony on the issues.

salvadore · September 15, 2015, 02:47 PM

Anecdotally, my sonny boy took the LEO coarse at ISU about 10 years ago. He owned a 1991 .45acp Colt. It was ridiculed and called antique, but sonny took top gun in his class. Probably didn't change any glockinator types and I agree there are probably few departments that allow it anymore but it is a great and much maligned shooter.

9x18_Walther · September 17, 2015, 12:19 PM

I imagine some of the CZ hate in police departments stem from the manual stating that for the CZ-75 or the B models that you can decock the pistol by pulling the hammer and easing down the hammer.

Really CZ? I suppose nobody's thumb can slip.

ftttu · September 17, 2015, 12:47 PM

I've been hunting/shooting starting around 4 so I believe that really helped me getting Company high shooter in USMC bootcamp. However, during that same time period, we heard that a female Marine shot higher than me and she never shot a gun before she entered service.

I was one of the top shooters in my police academy, and I would have had top gun if I was able to shoot on final qual day but I was unable due to injury.

So...there is no best here. If you go in with experience and prior training, it may even hurt you since the agency wants you trained their way. You may have bad traits that may be too hard to get rid of since they may be so ingrained.

August 31, 2015, 01:28 AM	#52
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,886	Mike38: Has your son-in-law handled any CZ handguns, tried the triggers, noticed the engineering/manufacturing quality etc? The CZ-75 variants might be worth considering, being used by some US police depts., Czech, Slovakian police, Brazil, Russia, Israeli Shin Bet (intell. and their "FBI/MI5" plus their Yamas: Special Ops), Delta Force, among others. He is familiar with Delta Force, the US Army's counter-terrorist units? They would seem to require the most reliable, effective guns. When Russia buys and issues a Czech gun, to me that also says something. Last edited by Ignition Override; August 31, 2015 at 01:52 AM.

August 31, 2015, 04:59 AM	#53
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	I'd suggest a CZ also. If he wants polymer, the P-09 is a good full size choice. If he wants something more compact the P-07, PCR, and P-01 are all good, lighter weight choices. __________________ Pilot

September 5, 2015, 09:26 PM	#56
2450paul Member Join Date: April 12, 2005 Location: Eastern Texas Posts: 16	Which Glock I've read 85% of PDs use Glocks

September 13, 2015, 10:28 PM	#66
lefteye Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Posts: 1,433	Do you mean the opposing attorney did not cross-examine you or did not ask any questions about firearms? Certainly the attorney calling you as an expert witness had to ask you questions in his live direct examination in court (unless your testimony was submitted in written form such as a deposition). __________________ Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70) NRA Life Member RMEF Life Member Last edited by lefteye; September 13, 2015 at 10:41 PM.

September 14, 2015, 09:37 AM	#68
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Lefteye, I have testified on both sides although as a working LE officer itt was normally for the prosecution. My testimony was given in court and subject to cross, i was not challenged to any serious degree regarding my testimony on the issue at hand during each appearance. Council was not ignorant of firearms and did ask questions but eventually accepted the "expert" testimony on the issues. Last edited by Ibmikey; September 14, 2015 at 09:43 AM.

August 30, 2015, 10:51 PM	#51
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Having administered entry level tests where often we would get 5-700 applicants for two or three job openings, the written and first interview will lessen the pack to manageable numbers with a long road yet in front of the applicant. The testing/background/hiring process normally takes months to complete with a final list of qualified applicaants provided for administrators to make the final choice (s). I wish your boy luck but have him continue to test with other organizations that are hiring if he wants to narrow his personal odds. I had an easier time when hired as only 104 persons sought two positions, i made one of those and retired partially thirty years later and after another 13 years part time i finally made a clean break. I loved my service as a Police Officer but If i were pursuing a career today LE would not be on my list.

August 31, 2015, 06:08 AM	#54
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,466	I'm a little late to the party but I'll just add that around here officers do not purchase their duty weapons, the departments issue them. I believe our state law provides that police officers are police officers 24/7, so pretty much all officers carry when off duty -- they may be required to do so, I'm not certain. The departments don't issue weapons for off-duty carry, but they do have guidelines, either in the form of an approved list or an enumeration of specific criteria that the gun must satisfy. Your son would probably be making a serious mistake buying a gun before he gets placed with a department and knows what they allow or issue. You can't assume that a Glock is always safe. The department on the next town to mine issues SIGs in .45 Auto, single stack. I knew of another agency that was issuing SIGs in .357 SIG. Tell him to cool his jets until he knows where he'll be working.

September 12, 2015, 01:30 PM	#57
L-2 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2004 Location: Nevada Posts: 523	The percentages are constantly varying. From Glock's website (and we know that isn't updated regularly) the USA % is 65%; but in some states, the percentages are in the 80's; so a particular state could be at 85%. At a Glock Armorers' class in 2013, the Glock Rep for the western states did say HI and CA were in the 80+% for law enforcement use.

September 12, 2015, 01:59 PM	#58
manta49 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2011 Location: N Ireland. UK. Posts: 1,809	There is a lot more to being a police officer than what handgun they carry, something that they are unlikely ever to need. As for the caliber i would go for the most tried tested and used handgun caliber ever the 9 MM. I am not a Glock fan but i can see the attraction to police officer, cheap reliable light and easy to use.

September 13, 2015, 09:16 AM	#59
SpareMag Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2012 Posts: 514	Seems to me the easiest option would be for him to follow what other officers carry on whatever force hires him on. Most likely the force will also have LEO discounts with a local supplier. If you go odd caliber, the force may not provide rounds for training, and I can envision a civil issue if the forces uses .32 PPKs and your S-I-L takes a perp with a Desert Eagle .50.

September 13, 2015, 12:48 PM	#60
jason.copas Junior Member Join Date: August 9, 2015 Posts: 9	Personally, I would recommend he buy something he would be willing to carry OFF duty. And a smaller platform makes a good argument for a 9mm, especially with a new shooter. Tiny little 40 cal's can get brutal in the recoil department. Whatever department he ends up at, assuming he makes it through all the red tape, may or may not allow whatever service size gun he buys. But I believe most police departments are more lenient on off duty weapons, and it gives him something to practice with in the meantime. Not to mention it can serve as a CCW weapon (he has a permit) as well.

September 13, 2015, 03:37 PM	#61
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	As stated earlier most departments issue a particular duty weapon or have a list of approved weapons they will allow officers to purchase for duty use. Some departments require their officers to use the department issued duty weapon until they come off of probation then they are allowed to purchase their own from the list. News flash, not all departments issue a Glock pistol. My department still issues the Beretta 92FS pistol. If your SIL is allowed to choose his duty weapon take him to a range that rents guns so he can try as many as possible. If he is given a list he can try those on that list without actually buying until he makes his decision. As for caliber most departments choose that as well. Many departments will provide the officer with duty ammo so that everything is uniform. The idea is that an officer who has his own ammo may be considered by some attorneys as a rogue cop gone bad, the department ammo isn't lethal enough so the cop got his own. I know it sounds screwy and it is but lawyers (both defense and prosecutors) can be idiots where ammo is concerned. If the department allows him to choose the gun and caliber the range trip can be extremely valuable. He can try the various combinations until he find one that works for him.

September 13, 2015, 09:46 PM	#65
Ibmikey Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2013 Location: Now relocated to Texas Posts: 2,943	Having been called into Superior Court on a number of occasions to testify as an expert witness on firearms, i found most attorneys were content to rely on such expert testimony rather than become experts or even familar with weapons themselves.

September 14, 2015, 08:40 AM	#67
wmg1299 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2013 Location: DFW Metroplex Posts: 190	I would recommend that he not buy anything at all before he is accepted into a police academy. A lot of potential recruits think that they can help themselves by buying their own gun and practicing before the academy starts. They are often wrong. When I went through a police academy 10 years ago, myself and two of my academy mates had never fired a handgun. Many recruits were prior military. One of my academy mates had grown up around guns and considered himself somewhat of an expert. All of our instructors agreed that they prefer to teach recruits with military experience or no experience at all. A great deal of our training time consisted of instructors addressing and correcting the bad habits of our “expert.” The vast majority of agencies have a short list of approved firearms that they will either issue or arrange for officers to purchase at a discount from a supplier. Certified academy instructors will often provide recruits with the opportunity to fire multiple approved weapons, and will make an assessment of each shooter’s physical attributes. Experienced instructors can provide valuable input on which model, caliber, grip and sight arrangement will maximize each recruit’s performance after accounting for factors such as hand size, grip strength, and ability to handle recoil. I wish your son-in-law the best of luck in his chosen career. My advice would be for him to be patient in this matter. Exercising patience when there is time to do so will serve him well as a law enforcement officer.

September 15, 2015, 02:47 PM	#69
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Anecdotally, my sonny boy took the LEO coarse at ISU about 10 years ago. He owned a 1991 .45acp Colt. It was ridiculed and called antique, but sonny took top gun in his class. Probably didn't change any glockinator types and I agree there are probably few departments that allow it anymore but it is a great and much maligned shooter.

September 17, 2015, 12:19 PM	#70
9x18_Walther Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2015 Posts: 500	I imagine some of the CZ hate in police departments stem from the manual stating that for the CZ-75 or the B models that you can decock the pistol by pulling the hammer and easing down the hammer. Really CZ? I suppose nobody's thumb can slip.

September 17, 2015, 12:47 PM	#71
ftttu Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2011 Posts: 226	I've been hunting/shooting starting around 4 so I believe that really helped me getting Company high shooter in USMC bootcamp. However, during that same time period, we heard that a female Marine shot higher than me and she never shot a gun before she entered service. I was one of the top shooters in my police academy, and I would have had top gun if I was able to shoot on final qual day but I was unable due to injury. So...there is no best here. If you go in with experience and prior training, it may even hurt you since the agency wants you trained their way. You may have bad traits that may be too hard to get rid of since they may be so ingrained.