Minor vs. Major

craigmac · December 30, 2006, 03:19 PM

I have never shot in compitition, but I am planning on getting involved asap. What is the differance between major and minor? I understand that 9mm is minor and .40 and above is major. Is there any pluses or minuses to being in one catagory vs. another?

I wanted to pick up a new gun for this and didn't know if the minor/major classifications were having any bearing other than caliber.

Thanks,

CraigMac

GoSlash27 · December 30, 2006, 05:29 PM

This is an argument that flies back and forth in USPSA.
Major/ minor isn't really something to worry about IMO when you first start because it'll be years before you get good enough to see an advantage one way or the other.
Major means you make bigger holes (increasing your chances for breaking a perforation for a higher score), can knock down steel with sloppier shots, and you have an easier penalty calculation in your scoring.
Downside is you can't shoot as rapidly.
I would personally pick a handgun I like to shoot and let the chips fall where they may. I shoot limited-10 major.

joseywales · December 30, 2006, 07:16 PM

Welcome to the world of competiton shooting!

To your question, in USPSA, there are scoring zones that are assigned point values on each paper target.
The same scoring zone can have a different point value based upon whether the round is categorized as 'major' or 'minor' power factor.

Zone Major Minor
A 5pts 5pts
B/C 4pts 3pts
D 3pts 1pts

Theoretically, the 'major' load is more difficult to shoot quickly, hence it earns more points per shot. 'Major' caliber is .45acp, .40s&w, 38super (there are exceptions to this), and 'minor' caliber is 9mm. (After a bit of practice, I found that I shoot my Glock 35/40s&w as quickly as my Glock 34/9mm...you get familiar with the recoil impulse and the way the sight tracks and you simply don't notice the difference).

IMHO, there are more important considerations to make regarding the selection of a competition pistol than the 'major/minor' power factor rating.

1. Do you already have a pistol of 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp caliber that you like to shoot? If you do, I would suggest that you try a few USPSA matches with your current pistol, just to see how you like it. At the match, you'll see many people with different kinds of pistols, most are happy to tell you 'more than you'll want to know' about why they chose that particular pistol/caliber. Most will let you 'try out' their pistol/gear as well. It will give YOU a good idea of how the sport operates, what type of equipment YOU would like to use or try, which Division YOU would like to play in, etc.

2. Do you reload?
If not, 9mm is much more inexpensive to shoot (obviously translates to more shooting).

3. What's the size of your gun budget?
Probably the most inexpensive Division within USPSA is the Production Division. As the name implies, pistols in this Division are mostly 'off-the-shelf' pistols from Glock, CZ, SigArms, Springfield, etc. Usually inexpensive pistols that run very well with inexpensive factory 9mm ammo. Other pistol Divisions provide for more expensive options.

4. Do you plan to use this gun for home-defense/carry as well as competition?
If so, Production division is probably the choice to make.

In any case, pick the pistol that you like to shoot the most and get to a match with it.

Whichever equipment Division you participate in, realize that you are only competing against others within that same Division (sort of a 'match within a match').

Take a peek at the USPSA website and review the "How Do I Get Started" and "What is Practical Shooting". It will give you a good basis for understanding the different Divisions, equipment, scoring, etc prior to your first match.

Wish you well in your endeavor. It's an absolutely great sport!

71Commander · December 31, 2006, 08:28 AM

What should be pointed out is if you are shooting in a class, such as Production, all scoring is minor, regardless of caliber used. The disadvanage come in when you shoot in a major class with a minor caliber.

GoSlash27 · December 31, 2006, 10:56 AM

tenntucker,
I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that "production" is the only class that disregards major/minor.
Others, such as L-10, Revolver, etc make the distinction.

But I'm with you; don't worry about M/m.

71Commander · December 31, 2006, 12:04 PM

I wans't real clear. If you want to shoot minor, you don't have to compete with major shooters, who get a scoring advantage. You can compete in a class against minor/minor scoring. Not all minor shooters are at a disadvantage.

GoSlash27 · December 31, 2006, 12:17 PM

Gotcha, and I agree.
I find that my personal inadequacies are much more glaring than the finer points of M/m. I don't double-tap fast enough to notice the difference in follow-up shot speed between a 9mm and a .40. I don't shoot accurately enough at these sort of events to notice accuracy differences in ammo. And I have yet to have a round barely break a perforation by less than 1/2mm.
But I have noticed that some minor shooters have problems getting steel to lay down.
Much ado about nuthin' IMO. I might think differently if I ever classify Master

[edit] it occurs to me after reviewing all this....I really should be shooting production myself instead of L-10M. Thanks for the food for thought![/edit]

Jim Watson · December 31, 2006, 12:41 PM

Joseywales' Question No 1 is the most important.

If you have a gun even remotely suitable for the event, go shooting.
Your main problem will be trying to sort out all the help and advice you get, most shooting organizations recruit strongly.

UniversalFrost · December 31, 2006, 10:46 PM

quick question on the major/minor thing. I am totally new to pistol competition shooting (long range rifle guy, palma, etc...) and was looking to get into it.

I currently carry a Berretta 92FS that has a 96 and barrel. I also have a .357 sig barrel for this setup and boy does it shoot.

Anyway, I was wondering if I can compete with this setup as a 9mm in minor, then switch to the other slide and barrel in .40S&W. Since the slide and barrel of the 96 are factory take offs would this still classify as a production gun (92 frame is no different than a 96 frame) with a 96 slide on a 92 frame?

Otherwise I was thinking of using an hk USPc in .40S&W or a colt commander 1911 or xd45 for the major and the beretta for minor.

Jim Watson · January 1, 2007, 12:12 AM

You are overthinking it, U.F.
Take your 92 9mm P and associated equipment to a USPSA club, check the box marked "Production" and shoot the match.
None of that other stuff is competitive versus properly selected or purpose built match guns.

GoSlash27 · January 1, 2007, 10:22 AM

UF,
What he said. What would really help you is a "D" spring and a trigger job.

UniversalFrost · January 1, 2007, 01:08 PM

Yup, already got the D spring and all the normal goodies for the 92FS.

Also, I was looking through the website and the rule book and the rule book said to check the site for the list of approved guns, but I could not find anywhere on the site that had a list a approved guns.

Any help is appreciated.

GoSlash27 · January 1, 2007, 01:55 PM

UF,
Here ya go.

Quote:

92 Series full size frame (including 92, 92D, 92DS, 92 F, 92FS, 92S, 92SB, 92SB-F, 92G-SD, 92FS Brigadier, 92FS Deluxe, 92G, 92G Elite, 92G Elite II, 92 FS Centurion, 92D Centurion,92G Centurion, 92 Stock, 92 EL)

GoSlash27 · January 1, 2007, 02:00 PM

Also something else worth noting:

Quote:

...colt commander 1911 ...

Single-action pistols are verboten for production class. The first firing must be accomplished double-action. Cocked 'n' locked or manually cocking the first shot will incur a procedural penalty.

HTHs and Happy New Year!
-John

Jim Watson · January 1, 2007, 02:12 PM

Bear in mind; the Approved List is ONLY for Production; guns are DA-SA, DAO, or Glock Tricky Trigger and similar. All calibers are scored Minor. Putting your .40 upper on your 9mm lower would not be legit and would not gain you anything.

Any Division but Open (scope sights and compensators), the minimum caliber to be loaded to Major power factor is .40. If you just wanted to shoot your Frankengun 96/92, USP, or XD .40 or .45 it would best enter in Limited 10; the guns in straight Limited have larger magazine capacity than readily available for your guns. Most serious Limited and L-10 guns are pretty refined and you would be a step behind with a service type pistol. Not that you could not have a good time trying to catch up.

I don't know anybody who shoots a Commander at high levels. The 3/4" shorter barrel, sight radius, and balance are not a huge disadvantage but they are a disadvantage with no advantage to counterweigh it.

1911ONR · January 3, 2007, 12:20 PM

I didn't believe that the M/m power factor scoring difference was that big - just shoot all A zone hits. Right. I have heard from several top shooters that shooting minor will kill your placement at major tournaments. At the 2006 Single Stack Classic, the highest placed shooter scoring minor was Doug Koenig who came in 7th. The next minor was 38th. That being said, just shoot what you got! For us mere mortals, it's better to get started and enjoy the heck out of it. Once you're drawn in and reach a plateau, you can worry about equipment races.

Rich636 · January 3, 2007, 01:24 PM

"Single-action pistols are verboten for production class. The first firing must be accomplished double-action. Cocked 'n' locked or manually cocking the first shot will incur a procedural penalty." -Goslash

Are you allowed to manually lower the hammer onto a chambered round, as in the case of a CZ-75? I wonder if that would be considered unsafe on the range since it doesn't have a decocking mechanism.

-Rich

1911ONR · January 3, 2007, 02:30 PM

Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is unsafe at any speed. Most CZs have a decocker. There might be SA/DA models out there with out a decocker, but certainly must have a manual safety. If you can't safely drop the hammer with a decocker then I wouldn't use it for stock/production divisions.

Rich636 · January 3, 2007, 02:46 PM

1911ONR, The CZ-75B model has no decocker but is capable of DA first shot or SA cocked and locked. I'm not a fan lowering hammers on loaded chambers by hand either unless the circumstances are right.

Jim Watson · January 3, 2007, 03:28 PM

Angus Hobdell and Matthew Mink are Master shooters who lower the hammer on CZ75B for IPSC Production. They say they would rather do that than try to tune up the more complicated CZ75BD with decocking machinery. I have done it, too, lowering the hammer and shooting a CZ75 in IDPA SSP with never an AD or even close in competition or practice. My CZ83 owners manual has instructions for the procedure.

If you want to be able to shoot AC/DC with assurance, the only guns I know of offhand that have both manual safeties AND mechanical decocking are the H&K USP Var 1, and current production Taurus Beretta derivative.

Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to lowering the hammer on a SA pistol like 1911 for a Condition 2 start; you can uncock one "administratively" with time for a careful job of it, but you will then be cocking it in haste and under stress. Not good.

GoSlash27 · January 3, 2007, 04:14 PM

If there's any rule regarding it I'm not aware of it. It'd depend on your range master.

December 30, 2006, 03:19 PM	#1
craigmac Junior Member Join Date: December 22, 2006 Location: Indianapolis, indiana Posts: 8	Minor vs. Major I have never shot in compitition, but I am planning on getting involved asap. What is the differance between major and minor? I understand that 9mm is minor and .40 and above is major. Is there any pluses or minuses to being in one catagory vs. another? I wanted to pick up a new gun for this and didn't know if the minor/major classifications were having any bearing other than caliber. Thanks, CraigMac

December 30, 2006, 05:29 PM	#2
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	This is an argument that flies back and forth in USPSA. Major/ minor isn't really something to worry about IMO when you first start because it'll be years before you get good enough to see an advantage one way or the other. Major means you make bigger holes (increasing your chances for breaking a perforation for a higher score), can knock down steel with sloppier shots, and you have an easier penalty calculation in your scoring. Downside is you can't shoot as rapidly. I would personally pick a handgun I like to shoot and let the chips fall where they may. I shoot limited-10 major. __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

December 30, 2006, 07:16 PM	#3
joseywales Member Join Date: November 3, 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 29	major v. minor scoring Welcome to the world of competiton shooting! To your question, in USPSA, there are scoring zones that are assigned point values on each paper target. The same scoring zone can have a different point value based upon whether the round is categorized as 'major' or 'minor' power factor. Zone Major Minor A 5pts 5pts B/C 4pts 3pts D 3pts 1pts Theoretically, the 'major' load is more difficult to shoot quickly, hence it earns more points per shot. 'Major' caliber is .45acp, .40s&w, 38super (there are exceptions to this), and 'minor' caliber is 9mm. (After a bit of practice, I found that I shoot my Glock 35/40s&w as quickly as my Glock 34/9mm...you get familiar with the recoil impulse and the way the sight tracks and you simply don't notice the difference). IMHO, there are more important considerations to make regarding the selection of a competition pistol than the 'major/minor' power factor rating. 1. Do you already have a pistol of 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp caliber that you like to shoot? If you do, I would suggest that you try a few USPSA matches with your current pistol, just to see how you like it. At the match, you'll see many people with different kinds of pistols, most are happy to tell you 'more than you'll want to know' about why they chose that particular pistol/caliber. Most will let you 'try out' their pistol/gear as well. It will give YOU a good idea of how the sport operates, what type of equipment YOU would like to use or try, which Division YOU would like to play in, etc. 2. Do you reload? If not, 9mm is much more inexpensive to shoot (obviously translates to more shooting). 3. What's the size of your gun budget? Probably the most inexpensive Division within USPSA is the Production Division. As the name implies, pistols in this Division are mostly 'off-the-shelf' pistols from Glock, CZ, SigArms, Springfield, etc. Usually inexpensive pistols that run very well with inexpensive factory 9mm ammo. Other pistol Divisions provide for more expensive options. 4. Do you plan to use this gun for home-defense/carry as well as competition? If so, Production division is probably the choice to make. In any case, pick the pistol that you like to shoot the most and get to a match with it. Whichever equipment Division you participate in, realize that you are only competing against others within that same Division (sort of a 'match within a match'). Take a peek at the USPSA website and review the "How Do I Get Started" and "What is Practical Shooting". It will give you a good basis for understanding the different Divisions, equipment, scoring, etc prior to your first match. Wish you well in your endeavor. It's an absolutely great sport!

December 31, 2006, 08:28 AM	#4
71Commander Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Going back to Tennessee Posts: 55	What should be pointed out is if you are shooting in a class, such as Production, all scoring is minor, regardless of caliber used. The disadvanage come in when you shoot in a major class with a minor caliber. __________________ NRA member USPSA CRO US Army 70-72 Patriot Guard Rider

December 31, 2006, 10:56 AM	#5
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	tenntucker, I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that "production" is the only class that disregards major/minor. Others, such as L-10, Revolver, etc make the distinction. But I'm with you; don't worry about M/m. __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

December 31, 2006, 12:04 PM	#6
71Commander Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Going back to Tennessee Posts: 55	I wans't real clear. If you want to shoot minor, you don't have to compete with major shooters, who get a scoring advantage. You can compete in a class against minor/minor scoring. Not all minor shooters are at a disadvantage. __________________ NRA member USPSA CRO US Army 70-72 Patriot Guard Rider

December 31, 2006, 12:17 PM	#7
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	Gotcha, and I agree. I find that my personal inadequacies are much more glaring than the finer points of M/m. I don't double-tap fast enough to notice the difference in follow-up shot speed between a 9mm and a .40. I don't shoot accurately enough at these sort of events to notice accuracy differences in ammo. And I have yet to have a round barely break a perforation by less than 1/2mm. But I have noticed that some minor shooters have problems getting steel to lay down. Much ado about nuthin' IMO. I might think differently if I ever classify Master [edit] it occurs to me after reviewing all this....I really should be shooting production myself instead of L-10M. Thanks for the food for thought![/edit] __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

December 31, 2006, 12:41 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Joseywales' Question No 1 is the most important. If you have a gun even remotely suitable for the event, go shooting. Your main problem will be trying to sort out all the help and advice you get, most shooting organizations recruit strongly.

December 31, 2006, 10:46 PM	#9
UniversalFrost Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,300	quick question on the major/minor thing. I am totally new to pistol competition shooting (long range rifle guy, palma, etc...) and was looking to get into it. I currently carry a Berretta 92FS that has a 96 and barrel. I also have a .357 sig barrel for this setup and boy does it shoot. Anyway, I was wondering if I can compete with this setup as a 9mm in minor, then switch to the other slide and barrel in .40S&W. Since the slide and barrel of the 96 are factory take offs would this still classify as a production gun (92 frame is no different than a 96 frame) with a 96 slide on a 92 frame? Otherwise I was thinking of using an hk USPc in .40S&W or a colt commander 1911 or xd45 for the major and the beretta for minor. __________________ Lifetime member VFW and NRA "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (when all else fails play dead) -Red Green

January 1, 2007, 12:12 AM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	You are overthinking it, U.F. Take your 92 9mm P and associated equipment to a USPSA club, check the box marked "Production" and shoot the match. None of that other stuff is competitive versus properly selected or purpose built match guns.

January 1, 2007, 10:22 AM	#11
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	UF, What he said. What would really help you is a "D" spring and a trigger job. __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

January 1, 2007, 01:08 PM	#12
UniversalFrost Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,300	Yup, already got the D spring and all the normal goodies for the 92FS. Also, I was looking through the website and the rule book and the rule book said to check the site for the list of approved guns, but I could not find anywhere on the site that had a list a approved guns. Any help is appreciated. __________________ Lifetime member VFW and NRA "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (when all else fails play dead) -Red Green

January 1, 2007, 02:12 PM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Bear in mind; the Approved List is ONLY for Production; guns are DA-SA, DAO, or Glock Tricky Trigger and similar. All calibers are scored Minor. Putting your .40 upper on your 9mm lower would not be legit and would not gain you anything. Any Division but Open (scope sights and compensators), the minimum caliber to be loaded to Major power factor is .40. If you just wanted to shoot your Frankengun 96/92, USP, or XD .40 or .45 it would best enter in Limited 10; the guns in straight Limited have larger magazine capacity than readily available for your guns. Most serious Limited and L-10 guns are pretty refined and you would be a step behind with a service type pistol. Not that you could not have a good time trying to catch up. I don't know anybody who shoots a Commander at high levels. The 3/4" shorter barrel, sight radius, and balance are not a huge disadvantage but they are a disadvantage with no advantage to counterweigh it.

January 3, 2007, 12:20 PM	#16
1911ONR Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 19	I didn't believe that the M/m power factor scoring difference was that big - just shoot all A zone hits. Right. I have heard from several top shooters that shooting minor will kill your placement at major tournaments. At the 2006 Single Stack Classic, the highest placed shooter scoring minor was Doug Koenig who came in 7th. The next minor was 38th. That being said, just shoot what you got! For us mere mortals, it's better to get started and enjoy the heck out of it. Once you're drawn in and reach a plateau, you can worry about equipment races.

January 3, 2007, 01:24 PM	#17
Rich636 Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2005 Posts: 189	"Single-action pistols are verboten for production class. The first firing must be accomplished double-action. Cocked 'n' locked or manually cocking the first shot will incur a procedural penalty." -Goslash Are you allowed to manually lower the hammer onto a chambered round, as in the case of a CZ-75? I wonder if that would be considered unsafe on the range since it doesn't have a decocking mechanism. -Rich

January 3, 2007, 02:30 PM	#18
1911ONR Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 19	Lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is unsafe at any speed. Most CZs have a decocker. There might be SA/DA models out there with out a decocker, but certainly must have a manual safety. If you can't safely drop the hammer with a decocker then I wouldn't use it for stock/production divisions.

January 3, 2007, 02:46 PM	#19
Rich636 Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2005 Posts: 189	1911ONR, The CZ-75B model has no decocker but is capable of DA first shot or SA cocked and locked. I'm not a fan lowering hammers on loaded chambers by hand either unless the circumstances are right.

January 3, 2007, 03:28 PM	#20
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Angus Hobdell and Matthew Mink are Master shooters who lower the hammer on CZ75B for IPSC Production. They say they would rather do that than try to tune up the more complicated CZ75BD with decocking machinery. I have done it, too, lowering the hammer and shooting a CZ75 in IDPA SSP with never an AD or even close in competition or practice. My CZ83 owners manual has instructions for the procedure. If you want to be able to shoot AC/DC with assurance, the only guns I know of offhand that have both manual safeties AND mechanical decocking are the H&K USP Var 1, and current production Taurus Beretta derivative. Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to lowering the hammer on a SA pistol like 1911 for a Condition 2 start; you can uncock one "administratively" with time for a careful job of it, but you will then be cocking it in haste and under stress. Not good.

January 3, 2007, 04:14 PM	#21
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	If there's any rule regarding it I'm not aware of it. It'd depend on your range master. __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply.

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