223 Loads shooting slow

Reef · December 25, 2013, 09:05 AM

OK, so I loaded up a batch of 223 and went to the range to chrono a few to check the load. The velocities were not what I expected.

• Brass- range, mixed head stamps, all trimmed to 1.750”
• Bullet- Hornady 55gr BT-FMJ w/c
• Powder- H335, 23.0 grains
• Primer- CCI 41
• Seating depth- 2.200” OAL
• Lightly crimped
• Loading Manual- Hornady 8th edition
• Range conditions- sunny, 45*F, light wind, low humidity, near sea level
• Chronograph- CED M2 placed about 15’ from the muzzle
• Gun- Sig M400 Enhanced, 16” barrel, 1 in 7” twist

Results of 18 shot string:
No issues with the rounds as far as feeding/ejecting goes, just the speed looks off.

High= 2444.0
Low= 2297.0
Extreme Spread= 147.0
Average= 2377.6
S.D.= 33.8
95%= +- 17.8

The load manual suggests a speed of 3000 fps with 22.4 and 3100 fps with 23.2. The test gun was a Remington 700 with a 26” barrel and a 1 in 12” twist. I don’t think it would make that much of a difference so that’s the reason for the post. Any suggestions or ideas are appreciated in advance.

PA-Joe · December 25, 2013, 09:33 AM

What is your barrel length. Add or subtract 25 fps per inch. Also 45degrees is on the cool side so velocities will be lower.

SonOfGun · December 25, 2013, 09:39 AM

Your powder charge is below START load in a Speer #13 manual.

They list a 55 gr bullet with H335 START at 24.0 gr and MAX at 26.0 gr using a magnum primer.

I suggest using more than one manual for comparison.

With all the variables factored in you may or may not have the same results. All components will produce different results.

You would be amazed how much more velocity 10 more inches of barrel will produce. My long range rifle has a 30 inch barrel for that reason.

steve4102 · December 25, 2013, 09:40 AM

Yes, a 10 inch reduction barrel length can have huge affect on velocity.
That said 2300fps does seem kinda low.

Your 23gr load is the bare minimum according to Hodgdon. Work the load up towards max of 25.3 gr and see if things improve. I'm not a fan of loading Minimum loads.

andyjr11 · December 25, 2013, 09:54 AM

I agree with the low load wt. being the problem. I shoot the same bullet with a load 0f 25 gr. of 335 out of a 24" barrel and get over 2900 fps.

cryogenic419 · December 25, 2013, 10:38 AM

Ran that through Quickload using the specs you supplied, the only real variance being case capacity and its showing 2529 fps.

rg1 · December 25, 2013, 10:43 AM

In this situation TRUST Hodgdon's data for H335 with 55 FMJ bullets in an AR15 rifle. Hornady's data is low for an AR rifle. Maybe in their bolt action rifle using the exact combination they tested their data is correct? I'd start at 24 grains of H335 and work up to 25 grains looking for best accuracy. Using 25 grains you should be near 3000 fps in your rifle.

Marco Califo · December 25, 2013, 10:53 AM

For what it is worth, the Sierra manual lists higher loads for their 55 grain bullets. For bolt guns they go past 27 grains. They have a separate guide for AR type, the main diff being lower velocities which are lower, mainly because you are talking about 24" vs 16.25".
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads...223rembolt.pdf

Reef · December 25, 2013, 02:12 PM

Thanks for all the replies! I just looked over some of the other manuals and the Hodgdon’s Website, concur the charge is low. Going to start at 24 and work up from there. Again, thanks for the help and a very Merry Christmas!

Dave

chris in va · December 25, 2013, 11:38 PM

Lyman 49

55gr SP
H335 24.3 3142 - 27 3270

Gotta be a misprint though, 130fps difference?

mehavey · December 26, 2013, 12:04 PM

That spread in velocities tells me either: Ignition problems, or Chronograph problems.

Run some commercial/military ball over the chrono and see what you get.
Even at 16" you should approach 2,900 w/ SD's ~20-ish.

If still reading low, you've isolated the problem. Check battery (my Oehler like lithiums when cold)

If reading comes back "normal," up the powder charge and see if ignition improves. (You're already running a mag primer)

rebs · December 26, 2013, 03:25 PM

23.0 grs is definately a very light load, start with 24.0 and go up in .2 gr increments

RC20 · December 26, 2013, 04:21 PM

Quote:

What is your barrel length. Add or subtract 25 fps per inch. Also 45degrees is on the cool side so velocities will be lower.

The OP listed his barrel length at 26 inches.

With a low charge and non magnum primers the variation is likely due to inconsistent light off.

Get it up a bit an maybe do the magnum primers and see how she goes.

mehavey · December 26, 2013, 04:30 PM

I believe it was 16" ("Sporter") length
SIG M400 Enhanced
(Note also that his CCI-41 is already a mag primer)

But I agree w/ probability of inconsistent ignition due to combination of low charge weight/temp effects (although 45° ain't all that low)

Brian Pfleuger · December 26, 2013, 04:33 PM

The OP lists his barrel length at 16". He's 10" shorter than the gun used in the data. It's not unusual to lose 50-75fps per inch with really short barrels. 25-50 per inch is a good average but that's with similarly length barrel. The shorter the barrel the more you lose per inch.

I wouldn't be the LEAST bit surprised to see a 16" barrel be at least 500fps slower than a 26" barrel, all else being equal, besides this being a semi instead of a bolt.

Sierra's data shows 2800fps from a 20" barrel and 24.2gr H335. So getting 4" less barrel and a very low charge of a slow powder... seems entirely believable to me.

mehavey · December 26, 2013, 04:38 PM

SIDENOTES: QL(default settings) thinks it should be in the mid 2,600's with that load/barrel.
Temp effect is projected to drop it ~35fps.

Reef · December 29, 2013, 05:16 PM

Follow up from OP of 25 December:

Brass: Sorted range brass, using all LC for this test, trimmed to 1.750”
Bullet: Hornady 55gr BT-FMJ w/c
Powder: H335, starting at 24.0, 0.2 increases to 25.0
Primer: CCI #41
Seating depth: 2.250”
Lightly crimped
Loading Manual: Sierra Edition V, 6th printing
Range conditions: Overcast, 50*F, light wind, 95% Relative Humidity, Barometer 30.02
Chronograph: CED M2 placed about 15’ from the muzzle
Gun: Sig M400 Enhanced, 16” barrel, 1 in 7” twist

Wanted to validate the Chronograph so I shot a 5 shot string using Geco 55 gr FMJ.

The box of the factory ammo lists 3314 fps at the muzzle using a 23.6” barrel.

ALL ARE 5 SHOT STRINGS

Results using Geco Factory Loaded Ammo:
• High= 2868
• Low= 2821
• ES= 47.0
• Ave= 2844
• S.D.= 15.0
• 95%= +- 23.3
• 1.706” group (outside to outside -.224)

Reload Test #1 at 24.0gr
• High= 2735
• Low= 2668
• ES= 67.0
• Ave= 2696.8
• S.D.= 29.5
• 95%= +- 45.8
• .685” group

Reload Test #2 at 24.2gr
• High= 2751
• Low= 2635
• ES= 116.0
• Ave= 2684.4
• S.D.= 46.1
• 95%= +- 71.5
• .521” group

Reload Test #3 at 24.4gr
• High= 2787
• Low= 2694
• ES= 93.0
• Ave= 2747.6
• S.D.= 32.6
• 95%= +- 50.5
• .535” group

Reload Test #4 at 24.6gr
• High= 2784
• Low= 2720
• ES= 64.0
• Ave= 2764.2
• S.D.= 23.2
• 95%= +- 35.9
• .427” group

Reload Test #5 at 24.8gr
• High= 2813
• Low= 2764
• ES= 49.0
• Ave= 2789.2
• S.D.= 18.5
• 95%= +- 28.7
• .547” group

Reload Test #6 at 25.0gr
• High= 2839
• Low= 2775
• ES= 64.0
• Ave= 2809.6
• S.D.= 21.2
• 95%= +- 32.9
• .373” group

All targets were placed at 25 yards and using 2 MOA Red Dot Aimpoint optic (my disclaimer for large groups)!

mehavey · December 29, 2013, 05:27 PM

You're within 50fps of where QuickLoad(default settings) thinks you should be w/ all loads, and ignition looks consistent.

Glad things are back in synch...

rg1 · December 29, 2013, 10:01 PM

Nice follow-up post with technical info. Strange that many many reloaders with Hornady 55 fmj's in their AR's say 25 grains is their most accurate load. I feel this level is safe also with most all combinations of components, cases and primers. Do as you did though and work up. A lot of Hornady 55 FMJ loaders load to a shorter overall length with them from 2.200-2.230" and some like you load out to 2.250".

December 25, 2013, 10:53 AM	#8
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	For what it is worth, the Sierra manual lists higher loads for their 55 grain bullets. For bolt guns they go past 27 grains. They have a separate guide for AR type, the main diff being lower velocities which are lower, mainly because you are talking about 24" vs 16.25". http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads...223rembolt.pdf __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; December 25, 2013 at 02:37 PM.

December 25, 2013, 02:12 PM	#9
Reef Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2012 Location: East Texas Posts: 105	Thanks for all the replies! I just looked over some of the other manuals and the Hodgdon’s Website, concur the charge is low. Going to start at 24 and work up from there. Again, thanks for the help and a very Merry Christmas! Dave __________________ 1911 is Faster than 911

December 26, 2013, 04:33 PM	#15
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The OP lists his barrel length at 16". He's 10" shorter than the gun used in the data. It's not unusual to lose 50-75fps per inch with really short barrels. 25-50 per inch is a good average but that's with similarly length barrel. The shorter the barrel the more you lose per inch. I wouldn't be the LEAST bit surprised to see a 16" barrel be at least 500fps slower than a 26" barrel, all else being equal, besides this being a semi instead of a bolt. Sierra's data shows 2800fps from a 20" barrel and 24.2gr H335. So getting 4" less barrel and a very low charge of a slow powder... seems entirely believable to me. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

December 26, 2013, 04:38 PM	#16
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	SIDENOTES: QL(default settings) thinks it should be in the mid 2,600's with that load/barrel. Temp effect is projected to drop it ~35fps. Last edited by mehavey; December 26, 2013 at 04:43 PM.

December 25, 2013, 09:05 AM	#1
Reef Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2012 Location: East Texas Posts: 105	223 Loads shooting slow OK, so I loaded up a batch of 223 and went to the range to chrono a few to check the load. The velocities were not what I expected. • Brass- range, mixed head stamps, all trimmed to 1.750” • Bullet- Hornady 55gr BT-FMJ w/c • Powder- H335, 23.0 grains • Primer- CCI 41 • Seating depth- 2.200” OAL • Lightly crimped • Loading Manual- Hornady 8th edition • Range conditions- sunny, 45*F, light wind, low humidity, near sea level • Chronograph- CED M2 placed about 15’ from the muzzle • Gun- Sig M400 Enhanced, 16” barrel, 1 in 7” twist Results of 18 shot string: No issues with the rounds as far as feeding/ejecting goes, just the speed looks off. High= 2444.0 Low= 2297.0 Extreme Spread= 147.0 Average= 2377.6 S.D.= 33.8 95%= +- 17.8 The load manual suggests a speed of 3000 fps with 22.4 and 3100 fps with 23.2. The test gun was a Remington 700 with a 26” barrel and a 1 in 12” twist. I don’t think it would make that much of a difference so that’s the reason for the post. Any suggestions or ideas are appreciated in advance. __________________ 1911 is Faster than 911

December 25, 2013, 09:33 AM	#2
PA-Joe Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 909	What is your barrel length. Add or subtract 25 fps per inch. Also 45degrees is on the cool side so velocities will be lower.

December 25, 2013, 09:39 AM	#3
SonOfGun Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2012 Location: Utah Posts: 110	Your powder charge is below START load in a Speer #13 manual. They list a 55 gr bullet with H335 START at 24.0 gr and MAX at 26.0 gr using a magnum primer. I suggest using more than one manual for comparison. With all the variables factored in you may or may not have the same results. All components will produce different results. You would be amazed how much more velocity 10 more inches of barrel will produce. My long range rifle has a 30 inch barrel for that reason.

December 25, 2013, 09:40 AM	#4
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,952	Yes, a 10 inch reduction barrel length can have huge affect on velocity. That said 2300fps does seem kinda low. Your 23gr load is the bare minimum according to Hodgdon. Work the load up towards max of 25.3 gr and see if things improve. I'm not a fan of loading Minimum loads.

December 25, 2013, 09:54 AM	#5
andyjr11 Member Join Date: March 27, 2013 Posts: 40	I agree with the low load wt. being the problem. I shoot the same bullet with a load 0f 25 gr. of 335 out of a 24" barrel and get over 2900 fps.

December 25, 2013, 10:38 AM	#6
cryogenic419 Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 569	Ran that through Quickload using the specs you supplied, the only real variance being case capacity and its showing 2529 fps.

December 25, 2013, 10:43 AM	#7
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	In this situation TRUST Hodgdon's data for H335 with 55 FMJ bullets in an AR15 rifle. Hornady's data is low for an AR rifle. Maybe in their bolt action rifle using the exact combination they tested their data is correct? I'd start at 24 grains of H335 and work up to 25 grains looking for best accuracy. Using 25 grains you should be near 3000 fps in your rifle.

December 25, 2013, 11:38 PM	#10
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Lyman 49 55gr SP H335 24.3 3142 - 27 3270 Gotta be a misprint though, 130fps difference?

December 26, 2013, 12:04 PM	#11
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	That spread in velocities tells me either: Ignition problems, or Chronograph problems. Run some commercial/military ball over the chrono and see what you get. Even at 16" you should approach 2,900 w/ SD's ~20-ish. If still reading low, you've isolated the problem. Check battery (my Oehler like lithiums when cold) If reading comes back "normal," up the powder charge and see if ignition improves. (You're already running a mag primer)

December 26, 2013, 03:25 PM	#12
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	23.0 grs is definately a very light load, start with 24.0 and go up in .2 gr increments

December 26, 2013, 04:30 PM	#14
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	I believe it was 16" ("Sporter") length SIG M400 Enhanced (Note also that his CCI-41 is already a mag primer) But I agree w/ probability of inconsistent ignition due to combination of low charge weight/temp effects (although 45° ain't all that low)

December 29, 2013, 05:27 PM	#18
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	You're within 50fps of where QuickLoad(default settings) thinks you should be w/ all loads, and ignition looks consistent. Glad things are back in synch...

December 29, 2013, 10:01 PM	#19
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Nice follow-up post with technical info. Strange that many many reloaders with Hornady 55 fmj's in their AR's say 25 grains is their most accurate load. I feel this level is safe also with most all combinations of components, cases and primers. Do as you did though and work up. A lot of Hornady 55 FMJ loaders load to a shorter overall length with them from 2.200-2.230" and some like you load out to 2.250".