Primer Thickness

roy reali · March 12, 2006, 04:26 PM

Are there some primers that are constructed thinner then others? In other words, they don't need as heavy of a firing pin strike as others.

The reason that I am asking concerns an older revolver that I just started to reload for. Once in awhile, a round will fail to ignite. The rounds all have very light firing pin indentations in them wether they fire or not. The hammer is not striking with all that much force.

I am now using CCI primers for it. If there are thinner ones, which ones would they be. If not, can the hammer be made stronger.

Thanks in advance.

Foxman · March 12, 2006, 05:11 PM

I would try Remington primers, I have always found them to be slightly softer than the CCI ones and Winchester.

Goldy · March 12, 2006, 05:23 PM

Federal by all means. Many thousands of rounds in Bianchi Cup matches with double action , tuned revolvers and only a couple of missfires with Federal.

Goldy

roy reali · March 12, 2006, 05:50 PM

So, from your two replies I take that CCI primers are thicker. Is that an accurate assumption?

JoeHatley · March 12, 2006, 07:27 PM

I think the primer cup is very similar between brands. It's the compound where the differences really are.

Joe

Jim Watson · March 12, 2006, 07:30 PM

Federal pistol primers have both a more sensitive priming compound AND a softer or thinner cup metal. (I loaded some top end handbook 9mm P with Federals ans scared myself over the cratered primers. Same load with any other brand looked normal.) They are your best chance for reliable ignition.

roy reali · March 12, 2006, 07:31 PM

So, does this mean that changing primers might not solve the problem? I realize a gunsmith's visit might be needed. I just wanted to try the primer thing first.

Foxman · March 13, 2006, 05:30 AM

I have found the CCi take a heavier strike to fire than Rem primers, I would also +1 on the Federals being slightly more sensitive. Give it a go youve nothing to lose only price of 50 carton of each primer and you may be pleasantly surprised.

roy reali · March 13, 2006, 10:26 AM

Could I not just resize some cases and just add a primer to them? Then I could run them through the revolver to see if there is any change in ignition reliability.

This would save me a trip to the range. The nearest range is at a distance that makes it impratical except on weekends.

How loud is a round with just a primer? Is there a way to muffle the sound so as not to disturb the neighborss?

Leftoverdj · March 13, 2006, 10:44 AM

Sure, you can do the testing with just the primer. Sound is nearly as loud as a .22, though.

Provide some cover noise, music on, vaccum cleaner running, anything like that, and do your shooting inside a taped up cardboard box with a hand hole cut in it.

mete · March 13, 2006, 10:47 AM

Hardly any noise with just the primer. The primer cup can be of different thickness but different hardness too. There are specs but I can't find them .For firing pin protrusion [ about .060"], firing pin radius, and firing pin force [inch/ounces ? ] to set off a primer.

roy reali · March 13, 2006, 10:49 AM

We have an in wall, block fireplace. I am thinking of using that. It should muffle most of the sound.

Are there any harmful fumes from shooting primers only?

JoeHatley · March 13, 2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

So, does this mean that changing primers might not solve the problem?

What gun are you having light hits with? Switching to Federal primers may help, but you probably should address the gun first.

Joe

roy reali · March 13, 2006, 10:55 AM

It is an old, Hopkins and Allen in .38S&W. The gun is in near new condition. The locking latch is solid, so it appears safe to shoot.

Like I mentioned earlier, I took the gun to the range. Every once in awhile a round would not go off. Looking at the primers, the dent is hardly apparent. So I either need easier to ignite primers if they exist, or take the gun to a gunsmith.

I do appreciate all the help I am getting here.

Leftoverdj · March 13, 2006, 11:06 AM

Depends on the revolver and your skill level. Many of the older revolvers have a spring tension screw near the bottom of the grip on the front side. Those screws frequently back out and tightening it may be all you need. You may also be able to increase spring tension by putting a thin metal shim between the screw and the spring.

Replacement springs are available for many of the older guns and available springs can sometimes be modified to work in other guns. Making a spring from scratch is a real trick without professional heat treating equipment.

roy reali · March 14, 2006, 07:48 PM

I just compared the primer indentation of one of my .38S&W cases and one of my 9mm cases. The .38's dent is slightly shallower. But it is also much wider. Could there be a problem with the firing pin?

**Unclenick** · March 14, 2006, 08:44 PM

Sure. Why not? It could be worn. Try checking the H&A's firing pin protrusion. Also, check that the cylinder doesn't shove forward enough to avoid a good pin strike. A shim washer is often need in S&W's to correct cylinder position. Make sure the latch really is holding and isn't hopping and letting the mechanism move forward. Make sure your modern brass's rims aren't too thin by checking that the case heads don't recess down in too far when you load them. These could all cause inadequate strike depth.

Many primers, including the Federals still use lead compounds for their superior sensitivity and reliability. There are lead vapors as a result, however, so keep the fumes away from small children and pregnant women.

Primer loudness depends on the shape of the resonator you fire them in. In a revolver they will be louder than a rifle, and about like a loud cap gun. They are, when you think about it, just exactly that. But the caps have been renamed "primers" to distinguish them from black powder caps for cap nipples.

Nick

roy reali · March 14, 2006, 11:15 PM

I took two new cases and primed them. They both went off perfectly even though the primer dent seems the same. Can a new case versus a once fired case have anything to do with this?

I do think I will have a gunsmith give this gun the once over anyway. I have another gun to take in so I'll have him look at this one too.

**Unclenick** · March 15, 2006, 01:16 PM

Take your cases with you so he can see the firing pin indentations.

Nick

onlybrowning · March 15, 2006, 11:36 PM

I too agree with addressing the gun, but if it is any consolidation, I assume Federal is a slightly more sensitive primer because the lee hand primer I have does not recommend use of them in their product for fear of explosion. Some handpriming tools will give maximum numbers of primers they want in the tray, so that MAY be an indication, but I am not sure...

March 12, 2006, 04:26 PM	#1
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Primer Thickness Are there some primers that are constructed thinner then others? In other words, they don't need as heavy of a firing pin strike as others. The reason that I am asking concerns an older revolver that I just started to reload for. Once in awhile, a round will fail to ignite. The rounds all have very light firing pin indentations in them wether they fire or not. The hammer is not striking with all that much force. I am now using CCI primers for it. If there are thinner ones, which ones would they be. If not, can the hammer be made stronger. Thanks in advance.

March 12, 2006, 05:11 PM	#2
Foxman Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 466	I would try Remington primers, I have always found them to be slightly softer than the CCI ones and Winchester. __________________ Better the man suspected of being a fool keep his mouth shut, than to open it and remove all doubt.

March 12, 2006, 05:50 PM	#4
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:foxman And Goldy So, from your two replies I take that CCI primers are thicker. Is that an accurate assumption?

March 12, 2006, 07:27 PM	#5
JoeHatley Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,135	I think the primer cup is very similar between brands. It's the compound where the differences really are. Joe __________________ Go NRA

March 12, 2006, 07:31 PM	#7
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re: Joehatley So, does this mean that changing primers might not solve the problem? I realize a gunsmith's visit might be needed. I just wanted to try the primer thing first.

March 12, 2006, 05:23 PM	#3
Goldy Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 163	Federal by all means. Many thousands of rounds in Bianchi Cup matches with double action , tuned revolvers and only a couple of missfires with Federal. Goldy

March 12, 2006, 07:30 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	Federal pistol primers have both a more sensitive priming compound AND a softer or thinner cup metal. (I loaded some top end handbook 9mm P with Federals ans scared myself over the cratered primers. Same load with any other brand looked normal.) They are your best chance for reliable ignition.

March 13, 2006, 05:30 AM	#8
Foxman Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 466	I have found the CCi take a heavier strike to fire than Rem primers, I would also +1 on the Federals being slightly more sensitive. Give it a go youve nothing to lose only price of 50 carton of each primer and you may be pleasantly surprised. __________________ Better the man suspected of being a fool keep his mouth shut, than to open it and remove all doubt.

March 13, 2006, 10:26 AM	#9
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:experiment Could I not just resize some cases and just add a primer to them? Then I could run them through the revolver to see if there is any change in ignition reliability. This would save me a trip to the range. The nearest range is at a distance that makes it impratical except on weekends. How loud is a round with just a primer? Is there a way to muffle the sound so as not to disturb the neighborss?

March 13, 2006, 10:44 AM	#10
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Sure, you can do the testing with just the primer. Sound is nearly as loud as a .22, though. Provide some cover noise, music on, vaccum cleaner running, anything like that, and do your shooting inside a taped up cardboard box with a hand hole cut in it.

March 13, 2006, 10:47 AM	#11
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Hardly any noise with just the primer. The primer cup can be of different thickness but different hardness too. There are specs but I can't find them .For firing pin protrusion [ about .060"], firing pin radius, and firing pin force [inch/ounces ? ] to set off a primer.

March 13, 2006, 10:49 AM	#12
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:leftoverdj We have an in wall, block fireplace. I am thinking of using that. It should muffle most of the sound. Are there any harmful fumes from shooting primers only?

March 13, 2006, 10:55 AM	#14
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:joehatley It is an old, Hopkins and Allen in .38S&W. The gun is in near new condition. The locking latch is solid, so it appears safe to shoot. Like I mentioned earlier, I took the gun to the range. Every once in awhile a round would not go off. Looking at the primers, the dent is hardly apparent. So I either need easier to ignite primers if they exist, or take the gun to a gunsmith. I do appreciate all the help I am getting here.

March 13, 2006, 11:06 AM	#15
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Depends on the revolver and your skill level. Many of the older revolvers have a spring tension screw near the bottom of the grip on the front side. Those screws frequently back out and tightening it may be all you need. You may also be able to increase spring tension by putting a thin metal shim between the screw and the spring. Replacement springs are available for many of the older guns and available springs can sometimes be modified to work in other guns. Making a spring from scratch is a real trick without professional heat treating equipment.

March 14, 2006, 07:48 PM	#16
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	More Info I just compared the primer indentation of one of my .38S&W cases and one of my 9mm cases. The .38's dent is slightly shallower. But it is also much wider. Could there be a problem with the firing pin?

March 14, 2006, 08:44 PM	#17
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Sure. Why not? It could be worn. Try checking the H&A's firing pin protrusion. Also, check that the cylinder doesn't shove forward enough to avoid a good pin strike. A shim washer is often need in S&W's to correct cylinder position. Make sure the latch really is holding and isn't hopping and letting the mechanism move forward. Make sure your modern brass's rims aren't too thin by checking that the case heads don't recess down in too far when you load them. These could all cause inadequate strike depth. Many primers, including the Federals still use lead compounds for their superior sensitivity and reliability. There are lead vapors as a result, however, so keep the fumes away from small children and pregnant women. Primer loudness depends on the shape of the resonator you fire them in. In a revolver they will be louder than a rifle, and about like a loud cap gun. They are, when you think about it, just exactly that. But the caps have been renamed "primers" to distinguish them from black powder caps for cap nipples. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 14, 2006, 11:15 PM	#18
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Back To The Drawing Board? I took two new cases and primed them. They both went off perfectly even though the primer dent seems the same. Can a new case versus a once fired case have anything to do with this? I do think I will have a gunsmith give this gun the once over anyway. I have another gun to take in so I'll have him look at this one too.

March 15, 2006, 01:16 PM	#19
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Take your cases with you so he can see the firing pin indentations. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 15, 2006, 11:36 PM	#20
onlybrowning Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2005 Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Posts: 275	I too agree with addressing the gun, but if it is any consolidation, I assume Federal is a slightly more sensitive primer because the lee hand primer I have does not recommend use of them in their product for fear of explosion. Some handpriming tools will give maximum numbers of primers they want in the tray, so that MAY be an indication, but I am not sure...