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October 6, 2010, 08:39 AM | #1 | |
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New Philly PD Order on OC
Issued 9-22.
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October 6, 2010, 09:11 AM | #2 |
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Given our rules - might we get some meaningful commentary. So what? One might ask?
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October 6, 2010, 09:16 AM | #3 |
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well for residents of Philly it's worth knowing what to expect
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October 6, 2010, 10:26 AM | #4 |
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How can they require open carry to have a concealed permit in Philly with their state firearms pre-emption laws? This seems to be harassment. You can't just pull people over just to see if they have a driver license.
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October 6, 2010, 10:28 AM | #5 |
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because PA law allows Philly to require a CC to OC.
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October 6, 2010, 10:31 AM | #6 | |
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October 6, 2010, 10:32 AM | #7 | |
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stupid but legal. what if the carrier did not have a permit? how would you know without checking? not agreeing. just asking |
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October 6, 2010, 10:33 AM | #8 | |
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If they can do it with firearms then they can do it with cars too.... that means they can effectively stop anyone at any time and justify it as "possible XYZ violation". Tell me that's not a civil rights violation!
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October 6, 2010, 10:33 AM | #9 | |
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October 6, 2010, 10:35 AM | #10 |
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San Diego just lost $35,000 in a false arrest of an open carrier:
http://www.examiner.com/la-in-los-an...-35-000-part-1 If they want to get rid of open carry - and there are arguments for that - then police directive is not the way to do it. Even people against open carry will see the issue with a police force making firearms regulations. Banning of open carry - or any firearms regulation for that matter - needs to go through the legislature. You know, someone held accountable to the people. Normal people will just view this as the oft-mentioned "police state". edit: this post is based off of faulty premises, please ignore it
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gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner Last edited by Sefner; October 6, 2010 at 12:30 PM. Reason: edited post based PA's exemption laws |
October 6, 2010, 11:20 AM | #11 | ||
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This is really "old news." It's my understanding that it's been the law for a long time in Pennsylvania that Philadelphia can ban open carry without a concealed gun permit and that Philadelphia has, by city ordinance, for a long time done so. All that seems to be new is that the Philadelphia PD has adopted some new, or revised, policy regarding the manner in which the law is to be enforced. |
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October 6, 2010, 11:33 AM | #12 |
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Sounds to me like they are just trying to standardize their procedure. Way to often Cop A has a different set of rules than Cop B, or doesn't know the law.
Frankly it seems a fair way to deal with it. Verify they are carrying legally and then let them go. Besides if you have a concealed carry license, carry concealed and avoid the whole mess. No need to open carry and get stopped every 10 feet. |
October 6, 2010, 11:42 AM | #13 |
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What the hell is a VUFA Violation?
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October 6, 2010, 12:16 PM | #14 | ||
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The actual state law: Quote:
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October 6, 2010, 12:29 PM | #15 |
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Ahhh. OP made it sound a little different. Thanks for the clarification and correction guys.
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October 6, 2010, 01:11 PM | #16 |
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I must be confused, because I don't see the difference between open carrying with a license and driving with a license.
OC w/o license is illegal Driving w/o license is illegal OC w/ license is legal Driving w/ license is legal So how can they detain you for OC to check if you have a license if they can't detain you for driving to check if you have a license?
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October 6, 2010, 01:38 PM | #17 | |
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October 6, 2010, 01:44 PM | #18 |
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But nonetheless, it looks like the PPD will be doing just that unless a court tells them they can't.
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October 8, 2010, 10:43 AM | #19 | |
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October 8, 2010, 10:45 AM | #20 | |
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October 8, 2010, 07:23 PM | #21 | |
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October 8, 2010, 09:14 PM | #22 | ||
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Forgive my ignorance of Pennsylvania's history with CCW laws, but how did the carve-out come about in the first place? Quote:
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October 8, 2010, 09:44 PM | #23 |
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I see two problems here:
1) Pennsylvania recognizes carry permits from a number of other states. Given that there is currently a court case on-going over the fact that Philadelphia has illegally arrested people for lawfully carrying with a Florida license, and unlawfully confiscated their firearms, I would have expected to see mention that out of state permits are valid ... or a list of which out of state permits are valid. 2) I don't think this directive passes constitutional muster. It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle without a license, too, but you don't see the Philadelphia police stopping every car on the streets until they can verify that the driver has a license, and that the license is current and valid. The legal basis for making a Terry stop is that there must be a "reasonable suspicion" based on clearly articulable facts on the part of the officer that a crime is being committed, has been committed, or is about to be committed. Having just been informed that open carry is legal within Philadelphia if the carrier has a carry permit ... what possible "reasonable suspicion" of a crime can there be just from seeing a person wearing a firearm in a holster? What clearly articulable fact could possibly turn that into a potential criminal act? |
October 9, 2010, 07:24 AM | #24 |
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That alleged Teletype message/ directive looks bogus to me. It's not written in "police-speak". and uses terms mostly popular with the firearms comunity.
It would probably be directed to "all officers, and comands" It probably would include an "efective date" in the heading. I dont think they would instruct an officer to "Sieze" the firearm, but retain posession, or remove from the person pending investigation. It just dont read right to me. Glenn D |
October 9, 2010, 10:22 AM | #25 |
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Glenn, I ran this by a friend who is a retired police officer living in Philadelphia. He responded this morning that it is genuine.
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