Why stop at book max load?

[Gitsum]

+1 HEAVY METAL. however, Pizza I see your point as well but I believe that in "general", these book recommendations should be followed and that anyone going over should realize that they are entering basically uncharted territory and take it from there under their own accord. (at their own risk)

[Jammer Six]

If you exceed published data, avoid my range, please.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six

If you exceed published data, avoid my range, please.

Which book?

[1SOW]

The loading manual load range is safe for average modern firearm in good condition.

This is worth a lot and all that's needed for most reloaders.

There are sturdy firearms that can handle higher pressures. There is NOT a list somewhere to KNOW if yours qualifies. This leaves either personal experimentation or believing what you read or hear from others. Both can be dangerous.

One small example: In some venues, Competitors do test/push beyond upper load limits.
In 9mm Luger, many competitors load them to extreme pressures to reach "Major Power Factor". For example, 1500'/sec with a 124gr CMJ bullet or 115gr @ almost 1600'/sec.
These loads are commonly "discussed online" in competitor forums. Typically, it's close to case full of slower powders, sometimes compressed and using magnum primers. Many thousands of these rounds are fired every weekend at matches all over the country.

Your typical M&P, Glock or Ruger would not be a likely safe candidate for these loads.

It's strictly a travel at your own risk deal, using experience, testing or a great deal of trust in someone else's experience; or maybe all three.

[TXGunNut]

You really know how to open a can of worms, OP. As we all know, folks who write loading manuals have better equipment and lawyers than we do. Feel free to decide which one has the most influence. I don't know but I will say that most of my rifles max out in accuracy long before they max out in powder charge. If you have a load that is approaching max velocity and max accuracy proceed with caution. If you're using a Hodgdon or Winchester powder check their site but their max loads are just that; MAX.

[mrawesome22]

I've found the info on the Hodgdon site to be A++.

Their velocities listed match my chronogtaph readings very closely so I believe them when tjey say stop.

But a lot of their data goes past what my books say, so I guess I am over the books max, but not over hodgdon's.

[SHR970]

32 H&R magnum. Loaded in a Riger Single Six not a POS Harrington and Richardson model 504 this round can be loaded from the SAAMI 21K psi to 35 K psi safely.

Edit:Some nights I jus't can't spell

[SL1]

While it is true that many old cartridges have been chambered in modern guns that can withstand MUCH higher pressures, it is also true that there is PRESSURE-TESTED data for many of them with warnings that those higher pressure cartridges be used ONLY in specific guns. So, in that sense, I don't consider using those PRESSURE-TESTED loads to be "loading over book max."

But, going over the maximum pressure-tested loads, you lose a valuable check on the safety of your loads. Some powders exhibit pressure spikes when they are burned in the wrong conditions, and some manuals stop below SAAMI pressure limits to avoid that type of behavior (and some choose to not even publish ANY data for powders that have exhibited that type of behavior in a cartridge). So, book max may be a safety threshold even when it is not at SAAMI max.

SL1

[SHR970]

But in my example, there is no second tier load data. The same also holds true for the 32 S&W long. If you look at PO Ackleys reloading manuals and see the charges listed for the 32 long vs. today, you would think he was insane.

Now for the other info about below SAAMI max and pressure spikes, the best contemporary example of that would be loads with Blue Dot that Alliant expressly says don't use (ie 357 125 gr. bullets). A use that has been around for decades is "suddenly" deemed unsafe.

[Heavy Metal 1]

What SHR970 just said was something I was thinking about earlier today...a load that was deemed "safe" because it was in the manual suddenly isn't anymore! Hmmm... My initial inquiry on this was for my education knowing that there are those of you with greater metallurgic knowledge than I who know about these very concepts we have been discussing. My earlier comment that the load maximums are relative, to an extent, seems likely to me given the following example: one of my load manuals lists its 8mm load as having been developed on a M98 VZ24. The listed load range for a 170 grain Speer bullet using IMR 4064 powder is 45-49 grains. Since this load was developed on that rifle we can assume that other M98 VZ24's would tolerate a similar load range. Just as we could expect that certain VZ24's would top out, i.e. show high pressure signs at perhaps 47 grains there may very well be other VZ24's that wouldn't top out until maybe 51 grains. Now we don't want to push our luck by going too far, but PERHAPS a smidgen over just might be ok in our gun. We would be straying into uncharted territory and pushing our luck, but it just might be ok. Again please note I AM NOT ADVOCATING THIS, just discussing the concept. I just find it all very interesting. Earlier today I tested a new load in a rifle I had not loaded for until today. The best accuracy was achieved at about 3/4 the way up the load chart. I tested loads up to the book max to see if a second accuracy node could be found and none was so I just called it good enough at the point where I had achieved the best accuracy. The Turk Mauser I referred to in an earlier post had a second accuracy node that was superior to the initial one at a load that was 1 grain over the book max and no pressure signs have been seen. Again I A M NOT ADVOCATING ANYONE ELSE DO THIS.

[Tom Matiska]

The "metallurgic logic" as explained to me is that metal has a perfect memory.... it remembers everything done to it......which brings us to why I don't buy used guns from strangers.

[brickeyee]

Why stop at book max load?

If you think blowing up a gun might be expensive, look into the costs of new fingers.

Even trying to repair damage is VERY expensive.

I have a number of cartridges that are wildcats with no factory data, and some antiques that are pretty close to the same with nothing like SAAMI data to even start from.

I load VERY carefully and conservatively.

Damaging expensive antiques is no more desirable than damaging fingers, hands, or arms.

[HiBC]

So,OP,may I ask you a few questions?FWIW,I load for some wildcat cartridges,so I make my own max sometimes,and I can also say I have loaded beyond book max a bit on occasion.I'm not entirely raining on your parade.

Do you understand the process of case obturation and stretch,brass thinning,and controlling shoulder setback to provide a known head clearance?
Tell me about the bent paper clip check.Do you have,and use,the tools to know you are setting your shoulder back for .002,or.004,or .006 head clearance?

Do you know the percentage of locking lug bearing surface your rifle has?In other words,are both lugs bearing at 70 percent or better?

How do you buy and control your brass?What kind of records do you keep?

As,do you buy 500 or 1000 of the same lot,have a standard batch size,and then when you replace your working batch,are you replacing with the same lot?

How do you buy your powder?Think about"I'd like three 8 lb jugs of Varget,all the same lot" versus,"Well,I got me a pound of powder from Charlies gun shop,oh gosh,I'm out,hey Charlie,got another pound?"Charlie says,"Yup,just came in yesterday"

What was the temp at the range when you developed your load?Thats pretty useful,to a point.That point is,oh,shoot up a bunch of cans or prairie dogs...till the doggone barrel will blister you,then wait til the next PD sticks his head up....meanwhile a round is sitting in a 150 degree chamber,getting a lot warmer than when you worked up your load.

Will you substitute a CCI primer for a Win,or a Rem,if you run out and its a hold up?

Will you let your brother try one of your loads in his rifle?

Do you always wear shooting glasses?

I could go on,but I'll quit now.

[Gitsum]

So,OP,may I ask you a few questions?FWIW,I load for some wildcat cartridges,so I make my own max sometimes,and I can also say I have loaded beyond book max a bit on occasion.I'm not entirely raining on your parade.

Do you understand the process of case obturation and stretch,brass thinning,and controlling shoulder setback to provide a known head clearance?
Tell me about the bent paper clip check.Do you have,and use,the tools to know you are setting your shoulder back for .002,or.004,or .006 head clearance?

Do you know the percentage of locking lug bearing surface your rifle has?In other words,are both lugs bearing at 70 percent or better?

How do you buy and control your brass?What kind of records do you keep?

As,do you buy 500 or 1000 of the same lot,have a standard batch size,and then when you replace your working batch,are you replacing with the same lot?

How do you buy your powder?Think about"I'd like three 8 lb jugs of Varget,all the same lot" versus,"Well,I got me a pound of powder from Charlies gun shop,oh gosh,I'm out,hey Charlie,got another pound?"Charlie says,"Yup,just came in yesterday"

What was the temp at the range when you developed your load?Thats pretty useful,to a point.That point is,oh,shoot up a bunch of cans or prairie dogs...till the doggone barrel will blister you,then wait til the next PD sticks his head up....meanwhile a round is sitting in a 150 degree chamber,getting a lot warmer than when you worked up your load.

Will you substitute a CCI primer for a Win,or a Rem,if you run out and its a hold up?

Will you let your brother try one of your loads in his rifle?

Do you always wear shooting glasses?

I could go on,but I'll quit now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited
I am also interested in the OP's question. Is this really helping any of us? How about a point that we can follow here. We are asking for help, not sarcasm.

[Hal]

Why stop at book max load?

Because having the bolt of my Winchester 670 sticking out of my skull isn't my idea of a fashion statement /

Since I don't have the equipment to test the actual pressures being generated, I prefer to stay on the safe side.

The relationship between charge weight and generated pressure isn't linear.
ie: one grain more won't produce a known increase in pressure.

Do people go "off book"?
Of course they do.
Some of the best loads out there are a result of going outside the published figures.
Have I?
In my earlier and more foolish days - yes.

[rclark]

Some of the best loads out there are a result of going outside the published figures

Yep. Take for example the Skeeter load for .44Spec (my favorite). This is 'out side' .44Spec SAMMI specs ... Or the .44spec Keith load. I have found with testing Trail Boss very good loads (and good chrono numbers) in .45 Colt above the manuals max. Also in .45 Colt we have Tier 1 (14,000psi SAMMI), Tier 2 (20,000 psi) and Tier 3 (30,000psi Ruger Only Loads) but .45 Colt is a really a special case. .44Mag for example should not exceed max. According to Linebaugh, the Ruger cylinder blow at 80,000cup, so the max absolute safe pressure for the caliber is 40,000cup which happens to be SAMMI (or was, I think it is listed in psi now). Know your gun. Trust your sources, and work up. Knowledge is power and experience is invaluable. YMMV. I rarely shoot rifle, so no comment on that side of the reloading hobby.

That all said, do I push the evelope? I admit I did with my extensive Trail Boss tests for .45 Colt and I do use the Skeeter load for .44Spec. My .45 Colt loads are Tier 2 which is safe in any modern .45 Colt revolver (that I use). My magnum loads are sub 1200fps in both .44Mag and .357Mag. I have no need to 'really' push the envelope. Leave that to others.

BTW, when testing a 'new' (to you) powder for the first time, NEVER exceed or be near max. Stay in the midrange. See how it shoots and work up from there (if needed). A chronograh is invaluable for load testing.

[HiBC]

My appologies.Sarcasm was not my intent.I was hoping my questions would turn on lightbulbs of thought.

Then the readers mind could save a lot of typing.

I will offer a theory:Those with a year or two of loading experience will have the confidence but lack the broad knowledge of variables,and so they will not be limited by the max load.They will venture boldly forth.

I think you will find the folks who have been handloading for 20 or 30 years or more know the grey area around the line and choose to keep a safety margin between themselves and the edge.

Lets make a different version of the OP's question:
Suppose it was re-framed around legal blood alchohol levels and driving home successfully for 20 years from the bar over the legal limit.It could be argued it was safe because it had been done for 20 years,no problem.

Maybe so.What is a very good idea,after doing it 20 years,is to say"But,if I keep doing it,sooner or later,I will have or cause an accident,or I will get pulled over and given a DUI,or I will stick a bolt and break off a bolt handle,or blow a primer and scrap my eye,or ....."So,whatever I got away with up to this day,fine.But starting now,I can say"I just do not need to get my first DUI,or blow up my first gun,at the age of XX.
I don't really lose anything.Actually,I win.

[SHR970]

Since we are reframing questions how about this; what if the manufacturer does not list a particular powder for an application? Does it make sense to try out that powder anyways? These days Alliant lists Bullseye, Unique, Blue Dot, and 2400 for pistol use. So suddenly Red Dot, Green Dot, and Herco are unsafe to use? Other books say it's alright to use them.

Max. loads.....there is a wide discrepancy between the different published sources on what constitutes a max. load. Some books max. loads don't even make other books start loads; even with the same components and OAL. So who do you trust now?

Max. loads vs. firearms: There are three tiers of data for certain calibers but that is a fairly recent development. Why; because people took advantage of the strength of certain classes of weapons and bumped the pressures up to take advantage of this. Eventually the book wirters codifed and standardized it. The 7.92 X 57 IS Mauser (M98) has long been castrated by SAAMI due to the 8mm I Mauser (1888 Commission) rifles. Though the books say that the M94, 95, and 96's are weaker than the M98, the pressures for the M98 loads have been held 10,000 psi less than the M9X series. Some books have taken the bend that SAAMI is wrong in this regard and they comply to Euro standards of pressure; of course they warn you not to use these in a 1888 and hope you actually pay attention to what you are doing.

Last for your consideration: You look at the page of Silhouette loads for certain calibers and see that even with heavier bullets that they use more of a given powder than in the previous section. You even notice that the start load is just shy of the previous sections max. load with certain powders. Strange how they decided to go from using PSI to CUP for these. (Speer #12 Pages 520 vs. pages 522 & 523).

[HiBC]

I do not think anyone "went from psi to CUP" to confound you.CUP is older data made with older equiptment.The game of handgun silhouette was far more popular some years back when CUP was the measuring equiptment they had.That game is not generating enough revenue these days to redo the pressure testing.

Using different powders than listed?Well,sure,to a degree there are product family loyalties,they will sell the stuff that makes money for them.There is a limit to how many powders they will test.Try another manual.

The folks who make the loading data are not working against us.

They provide us a service.I appreciate it.

You can use any powder you want,and use as much as you want.Load as far over max as you choose.That is what I do.I just freely choose to consider max a guidline to pay attention to.

I shoot a .375 Chatfield Taylor wildcat.Very little load data available.I made up my own.

I have a way to use a chronograph to help me find max loads.My .257 AI load is not in the books.

I figured out 25.3 gr Varget with a 69 gr Nosler comp in .223 with my own test methods before data was published.

IMO,for my loads in my rifles,the 7mm Rem Mag can be loaded to the same pressures as similar cartridges.

But I cannot recomend that to anyone else.

I've been loading for 43 years.I will always give you the sound advice to study your manuals and heed the guidlines.

If you choose to go your own way,OK by me.But you will have to take personal ownership of what happens.

[Jammer Six]

This thread is an excellent demonstration of why we need gun laws.

[SHR970]

This thread is an excellent demonstration of why we need gun laws.

1.You can't regulate stupid.

2. This is an excellent demonstration of opinions bases on years of experience and assumption of circumstances. You'll see that there is a lot of commonality in the answers.

3. You will also see that there are plenty of counter questions being posed as they are based on real life situations.

[SHR970]

HiBC

I shoot a .375 Chatfield Taylor wildcat.Very little load data available.I made up my own.

Only data I know for that one is from Ackley's...and that data is 50 years old. BTW, I was considering going that way until the 375 RUM came out. I never like the belt when one was not needed; but that's just me.

I've been loading for 43 years.I will always give you the sound advice to study your manuals and heed the guidlines.

I've been in the game for 20....I certainly agree with you there.

If you choose to go your own way,OK by me. But you will have to take personal ownership of what happens.

And please don't be in the lane next to me when it happens.

Reloading is much like being college trained for a job. After studying hard, you think you know it. It takes two to five years for you to figure out that you really don't understand as much as you thought. Then you begin to figure things out and really start learning. For those of us who have been in the game long enough, one of our goals is to help the neophites survive the first 5 years.

[SL1]

Contrary to what HiBC wrote about data for Silhouette loads being "old data," Speer's latest manual states that some of its revolver loads with heavy bullets were shot in the CUP system because the bases of those bullets obstruct the psi sensor area of the case. So, NEW data is STILL being shot in the CUP system, for various reasons.

As for pushing book max, as I wrote in another thread, WHICH book? It seems that most of the newer books are going to psi data, which is basically a good idea, since it is better data.

BUT, SAAMI's new psi standards are definitely downgrades from their previous CUP standards for a FEW cartridges, particularly the .357 and .44 Magnums. CIP pressure standards in THEIR psi system are substantially higher than the SAAMI psi standard for those cartridges.

This tends to create a situation where people find that their guns have effectively become less powerful than they were before the change in standards, and it is reasonable for them to resist that change by continuing to use the old data, so long as it exists.

But, as new components come out and old components are retired, it is harder to keep doing that, and that has created a secondary "unofficial standard" for those Magnums that is no more (or less) supported by SAAMI than the "three tiered" loading data for the .45 Colt. We see respected magazines (e.g., Handloader) publishing loads that are above SAAMI psi pressure limits, but those loads are NOT stated to be pressure-tested. So, what is a handloader to do if he wants to keep his same power level and use new components as then come out? It seems to me that SAAMI has made things worse, rather than better, for these few cartridges. But, that ALSO makes it harder for us to support the idea that you should NEVER go above "book" max charge data.

I would like to see SAAMI adopt another psi pressure standard for the .357, .41, and .44 Magnums that is equivalent to the old CUP standards. They can call it a "+P" standard to save face for the current standard actually being "minus P" and let manufacturers decide what guns are suitable for the more powwerful ammo, just like in other calibers with "+P" standards.

Doing that would help people realize that there is really a purpose to the max charge data. As it stands now, the concept of max charges is seriously damaged by different books showing substantially different loads due to different standards, and then having SOME gun writers and Internet posters trying to use misleading arguments to prove that those standards are really the same when the aren't. Those arguments tend to confuse the real issues surrounding the variation in max loads for a particular gun with particular reloading components that is caused by actual variations in the guns and components. If we want new folks to take those issues to heart, we need to stop using those same issues to "muddy the waters" with respect to the change from CUP to psi standards (just so that the SAAMI folks don't have to admit that they really create substantially different ACTUAL pressures in the same gun with the same components).

SL1

[Deja vu]

There was a time I use to push it by going a little over. I no longer do so.

There are some questions such as loading from the hornady and the Hodgdon load books you get very different loads for the 357 magnum.

for the 125 grain Hornady bullets in 357 magnum Hornadys max load is 1 grain less than Hodgdon starting load. using H110 and all the same components.

[Ike666]

As my primary flight instructor used to say, "If you exceed red-line, you've just become a test pilot because nobody knows when the wings will peel off now."

If you exceed the rated capacity of any device, you are risking a kaboom. It may be big or it may be small. It may be just over the line, or more than 100% above. We just don't know.