Ever a good way to bring this up with LEO? - Page 2

Wagonman · March 23, 2009, 10:09 AM

As someone posted, I also have had my weapon out countless times but haven't had finger on trigger on duty yet---thank God.

That said, there is no such thing as routine T-Stop. If I care enough to stop you I care enough to have my weapon out, behind my right leg and finger indexed.

Mr. James · March 23, 2009, 10:52 AM

This was an "oops" shooting in Fairfax County, Virginia. Salvatore Culosi, a 37-year-old optometrist, was shot to death by a police "tactical" officer serving a warrant for bookmaking.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012502245.html

Were I ever to be in the OP's suggested situation, I'd not think it the opportune time to suggest a wee bit of remedial training. I'd shut up, do as I'm told, and take it up with his supervisors after the fact.

Creature · March 23, 2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Here's a link to one such shooting. The cop involved definitely did mean to be pointing at the suspect, and definitely should not have had her finger on the trigger while doing so. Note the gun appears to be a Sig with a long heavy DA trigger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HcvIH6GpW8

I have seen that footage on television. It is hard to see it on youtube, but when viewed on TV, it can clearly be seen as a Beretta 92.

G-man 26 · March 23, 2009, 02:55 PM

I would assume that the officer in question knows that they should not have their finger on the trigger unless ready to shoot. This would also lead to the assumption on my part that this officer is about to shoot me.

Edward429451 recounts a case of mistaken identity, involving SWAT guys with mp-5's. Yours may well have been the same thing, mistaken ID, and your officer knew exactly what they were doing, and thought you were a real BAD guy. Assume the worst, and do what you are told. You could also say a prayer that your assumptions are correct, and this cop knows what they are doing, and you come out OK to complain about the problem after the fact. If the guns are out, the time to talk is over.

pax · March 23, 2009, 03:05 PM

Creature,

Thanks.

pax

Creature · March 23, 2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Note the gun appears to be a Sig with a long heavy DA trigger.

I should have added that Beretta 92 also has a long heavy DA trigger on them as well....

csmsss · March 23, 2009, 03:23 PM

It shouldn't make any difference what trigger mechanism the LEO's firearm uses. His/her finger shouldn't be on the trigger until AFTER he/she has made the decision to shoot, and not before then - just as for any of us. Any and sundry things can happen to us in a moment of exigency, and putting your finger inside the trigger housing is an invitation for any of them to happen.

I find it absurd that some LEO agencies teach placing the finger inside the guard prior to making the decision to shoot. That seems incredibly foolish to me.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 23, 2009, 03:55 PM

There's a similar video on a officer who does the same with an MP-5. He shoots one next to the noggin of a downed supsect. It was claimed that the suspect was still wiggling so he shot next to his head to calm him.

Might be on Youtube. It started with a nut with a knife on a roof and running around (IIRC). But I could be wrong on that.

Whiteboy67 · March 23, 2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

There's a similar video on a officer who does the same with an MP-5. He shoots one next to the noggin of a downed supsect. It was claimed that the suspect was still wiggling so he shot next to his head to calm him.

Is that supposed to be a good excuse?

Glenn E. Meyer · March 23, 2009, 05:15 PM

It beats 'I'm stupid and my department skimped on my training'. Or does it?

Look at the world - do most people, step up and say - I'm stupid.

Cramer on John Stewart maybe?

JohnH1963 · March 23, 2009, 07:38 PM

How long does it take for someone to draw a weapon and fire one round? About 1-2 seconds. There are guys out there that can do it in less then a second easily.

Therefore, winning the gunfight comes down to fractions of a second at times. Having your finger on the trigger is less safe, but more effective. It will save valuable milliseconds which may mean the difference between life and death.

MikeGoob · March 23, 2009, 08:08 PM

maybe that makes sense when its open war and you're in enemy territory, but for police, MOST of the time they arent in a situation where they need to fire their weapon. Like some have said, they've drawn while on duty many times but never fired.

Wagonman · March 23, 2009, 10:44 PM

On Target On Trigger

Off Target Off Trigger

roklok · March 24, 2009, 12:00 AM

I was trained by a very respected law enforcement agency that when pointed at a threat, the finger is on the trigger. If the threat is not imminent the weapon is in the "guard" position and finger is off trigger. We had this DRILLED into us. Pointed at threat.........finger ON trigger. If the threat is not real and imminent enough to warrant the finger on trigger, it is not real and imminent enough to be pointed at in the first place.

BikerRN · March 24, 2009, 03:31 AM

If you have a LEO pointing a gun at you with his or her finger on the trigger, the time to argue, correct or admonish them is not when such is occuring.

In short, complain to the administration after the situation has been resolved and you are "on your way".

Biker

Careby · March 24, 2009, 04:23 PM

In the late 80's I was in the Navy and stationed aboard a submarine tender at King's Bay, Georgia with a contingent of marines aboard providing nuclear weapons security. The marines had just been issued Beretta 9mm's to replace the 1911's they formerly carried. The 1911's had been carried with an empty chamber, but that policy changed when the Beretta 9mm's were adopted. In one security drill I was the designated "bad guy" and at the conclusion of the drill I was on the deck and surrounded by six gung-ho marines kicking and screaming at me with loaded 9mm's pointed at my head, fingers on triggers. I felt more in danger on that one day than at any other time in the ten years I served, including four years on a nuclear sub (SSBN).

grymster2007 · March 24, 2009, 04:53 PM

I've had LEOs pointing guns at me, with finger on trigger, more than once and have to say it is scary. The scariest was a very young CHP officer pulled me over on a traffic stop. As he approached the window, I went for my wallet in right hip pocket. His gun came out pronto, he took a step back and started yelling for me to put my hands on the wheel. All the while, his gun was waving around. I distinctly remember the white knuckle on his trembling finger as it was hooked around the trigger.

I did not ask him to take his finger off the trigger and I think my immediate compliance, without comment might have greatly contributed to my ability to post here today.

... much to the chagrin of many.

That was a long time ago. He made mistakes and so did I. Now I wait for my ticket quietly, with my hands open-palm on the wheel.

Keltyke · March 24, 2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Now I wait for my ticket quietly, with my hands open-palm on the wheel.

+1. I sit there with my hands on the wheel until I receive a command. I don't roll down the window, or reach for ANYTHING until told to do so.

armsmaster270 · March 24, 2009, 07:13 PM

Time to roll down the windows is before he approaches.

Brian Pfleuger · March 24, 2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Time to roll down the windows is before he approaches.

Yepper.

I start out by using my signals and stopping like a sane human being, as well as getting as far off the road as is practical, to give the officer plenty of room between their posterior and traffic. I roll down the window before I come to a stop. If it's night time I also turn on ALL internal lights. Shut off the radio and the engine. Hands on the wheel. When the officer makes a request, like "License and registration please." I say "Certainly, the registration is in the glove box." When I retrieve the registration, I leave the glove box open so they can see what's in there. Now that I carry, I keep my wallet where I can reach it without going anywhere near my gun and also have it in my hands when the officer approaches.

ANYTHING that you can do to give every possible indication that you are not only not a threat but in fact a friend will help you. Not just because you have a gun but also, many times, helping to prevent you from getting a ticket.

Littlehoov · March 24, 2009, 08:24 PM

Thankfully, I havent been pulled over in a while. But my standard procedure is as follows:

1. Turn car off, turn hazard lights on
2. Roll down both front windows (they are illegally tinted in my state, so I make sure this happens)
3. Optionally put keys on roof of car
4. Keep hands on steering wheel.

Now my question is this...since I turned 21, I now carry a pistol unconcealed in my car nearly all the time. What is the best thing to do in that situation?

I was thinking as the offer was approaching the car I could shout that there is a pistol lying on the front seat...but that could turn into a hairy situation....

grymster2007 · March 24, 2009, 10:32 PM

T

Quote:

Thankfully, I havent been pulled over in a while.

Yeah... been a couple weeks for me too.

Seriously, I haven't been stopped in a long, long time, but if I am, I'll keep my hands in sight, move real slow and follow all commands immediately.

Edward429451 · March 24, 2009, 10:54 PM

I've been pulled over many times over the years with an unconcealed weapon in the vehicle on the seat next to me...You don't shout I have a gun!

You keep your hands visible to them and declare the weapon in a nonchalent manner during the first exchange of conversation with them, if they don't see it first, which they almost never have.

Rich Miranda · March 25, 2009, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Now my question is this...since I turned 21, I now carry a pistol unconcealed in my car nearly all the time. What is the best thing to do in that situation?

I was thinking as the offer was approaching the car I could shout that there is a pistol lying on the front seat...but that could turn into a hairy situation....

Many moons ago in CA I received security officer training (never did actually work as one though) by an LAPD officer. He taught us that if we were pulled over while armed to roll down the window ASAP. Then actually place both hands -palm down, all fingers visible- on the door (where the window comes out from), so as to be visible as the officer walked up. Then, when the officer was next to you say clearly and calmly, "Officer, I work as a security guard, and I'm carrying a firearm" without ever moving your hands. Then follow his directions.

I doubt any of those procedures were law, but they were meant to make sure everyone remained calm.

March 23, 2009, 10:52 AM	#27
Mr. James Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: The Old Dominion Posts: 1,521	This one was fatal This was an "oops" shooting in Fairfax County, Virginia. Salvatore Culosi, a 37-year-old optometrist, was shot to death by a police "tactical" officer serving a warrant for bookmaking. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012502245.html Were I ever to be in the OP's suggested situation, I'd not think it the opportune time to suggest a wee bit of remedial training. I'd shut up, do as I'm told, and take it up with his supervisors after the fact. __________________ "...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li "When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat

March 23, 2009, 02:55 PM	#29
G-man 26 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2008 Location: southern, CA Posts: 212	assume I would assume that the officer in question knows that they should not have their finger on the trigger unless ready to shoot. This would also lead to the assumption on my part that this officer is about to shoot me. Edward429451 recounts a case of mistaken identity, involving SWAT guys with mp-5's. Yours may well have been the same thing, mistaken ID, and your officer knew exactly what they were doing, and thought you were a real BAD guy. Assume the worst, and do what you are told. You could also say a prayer that your assumptions are correct, and this cop knows what they are doing, and you come out OK to complain about the problem after the fact. If the guns are out, the time to talk is over. __________________ "When one man speaks to another man who doesn't understand him, and when the man who's speaking no longer understands, it's metaphysics." Voltaire

March 23, 2009, 03:05 PM	#30
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Creature, Thanks. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

March 23, 2009, 03:55 PM	#33
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	There's a similar video on a officer who does the same with an MP-5. He shoots one next to the noggin of a downed supsect. It was claimed that the suspect was still wiggling so he shot next to his head to calm him. Might be on Youtube. It started with a nut with a knife on a roof and running around (IIRC). But I could be wrong on that. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 23, 2009, 05:15 PM	#35
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	It beats 'I'm stupid and my department skimped on my training'. Or does it? Look at the world - do most people, step up and say - I'm stupid. Cramer on John Stewart maybe? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 23, 2009, 10:09 AM	#26
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	As someone posted, I also have had my weapon out countless times but haven't had finger on trigger on duty yet---thank God. That said, there is no such thing as routine T-Stop. If I care enough to stop you I care enough to have my weapon out, behind my right leg and finger indexed.

March 23, 2009, 03:23 PM	#32
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	It shouldn't make any difference what trigger mechanism the LEO's firearm uses. His/her finger shouldn't be on the trigger until AFTER he/she has made the decision to shoot, and not before then - just as for any of us. Any and sundry things can happen to us in a moment of exigency, and putting your finger inside the trigger housing is an invitation for any of them to happen. I find it absurd that some LEO agencies teach placing the finger inside the guard prior to making the decision to shoot. That seems incredibly foolish to me.

March 23, 2009, 07:38 PM	#36
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	How long does it take for someone to draw a weapon and fire one round? About 1-2 seconds. There are guys out there that can do it in less then a second easily. Therefore, winning the gunfight comes down to fractions of a second at times. Having your finger on the trigger is less safe, but more effective. It will save valuable milliseconds which may mean the difference between life and death.

March 23, 2009, 08:08 PM	#37
MikeGoob Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2006 Posts: 876	maybe that makes sense when its open war and you're in enemy territory, but for police, MOST of the time they arent in a situation where they need to fire their weapon. Like some have said, they've drawn while on duty many times but never fired.

March 23, 2009, 10:44 PM	#38
Wagonman Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,014	On Target On Trigger Off Target Off Trigger

March 24, 2009, 12:00 AM	#39
roklok Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2008 Location: Fort Yukon, Alaska Posts: 735	I was trained by a very respected law enforcement agency that when pointed at a threat, the finger is on the trigger. If the threat is not imminent the weapon is in the "guard" position and finger is off trigger. We had this DRILLED into us. Pointed at threat.........finger ON trigger. If the threat is not real and imminent enough to warrant the finger on trigger, it is not real and imminent enough to be pointed at in the first place.

March 24, 2009, 03:31 AM	#40
BikerRN Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2007 Location: "State of Discombobulation" Posts: 1,333	If you have a LEO pointing a gun at you with his or her finger on the trigger, the time to argue, correct or admonish them is not when such is occuring. In short, complain to the administration after the situation has been resolved and you are "on your way". Biker

March 24, 2009, 04:23 PM	#41
Careby Member Join Date: March 3, 2009 Location: Northeastern Kentucky Posts: 22	In the late 80's I was in the Navy and stationed aboard a submarine tender at King's Bay, Georgia with a contingent of marines aboard providing nuclear weapons security. The marines had just been issued Beretta 9mm's to replace the 1911's they formerly carried. The 1911's had been carried with an empty chamber, but that policy changed when the Beretta 9mm's were adopted. In one security drill I was the designated "bad guy" and at the conclusion of the drill I was on the deck and surrounded by six gung-ho marines kicking and screaming at me with loaded 9mm's pointed at my head, fingers on triggers. I felt more in danger on that one day than at any other time in the ten years I served, including four years on a nuclear sub (SSBN).

March 24, 2009, 04:53 PM	#42
grymster2007 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: In the oak studded hills near Napa Posts: 2,203	I've had LEOs pointing guns at me, with finger on trigger, more than once and have to say it is scary. The scariest was a very young CHP officer pulled me over on a traffic stop. As he approached the window, I went for my wallet in right hip pocket. His gun came out pronto, he took a step back and started yelling for me to put my hands on the wheel. All the while, his gun was waving around. I distinctly remember the white knuckle on his trembling finger as it was hooked around the trigger. I did not ask him to take his finger off the trigger and I think my immediate compliance, without comment might have greatly contributed to my ability to post here today. ... much to the chagrin of many. That was a long time ago. He made mistakes and so did I. Now I wait for my ticket quietly, with my hands open-palm on the wheel. __________________ grym

March 24, 2009, 07:13 PM	#44
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	Time to roll down the windows is before he approaches. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

March 24, 2009, 08:24 PM	#46
Littlehoov Member Join Date: March 3, 2009 Posts: 57	Thankfully, I havent been pulled over in a while. But my standard procedure is as follows: 1. Turn car off, turn hazard lights on 2. Roll down both front windows (they are illegally tinted in my state, so I make sure this happens) 3. Optionally put keys on roof of car 4. Keep hands on steering wheel. Now my question is this...since I turned 21, I now carry a pistol unconcealed in my car nearly all the time. What is the best thing to do in that situation? I was thinking as the offer was approaching the car I could shout that there is a pistol lying on the front seat...but that could turn into a hairy situation....

March 24, 2009, 10:54 PM	#48
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	I've been pulled over many times over the years with an unconcealed weapon in the vehicle on the seat next to me...You don't shout I have a gun! You keep your hands visible to them and declare the weapon in a nonchalent manner during the first exchange of conversation with them, if they don't see it first, which they almost never have.

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