The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 15, 2013, 04:34 PM   #1
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,197
"Gun Show Loophole"

I'm not a fan of crowds, and I don't like buying expensive stuff from private sellers, so I have to confess I've never been to a gun show.

From the news one gets the impression that you can buy whatever you want at a gun show without any checks (which if true would be a pretty big loophole in our current controls). From - presumably better informed - sources online one gets the impression that that's nonsense.

My question is why - if it doesn't exist to begin with - are so many people opposed to closing this loophole. I'm not looking to start an argument, but closing an imaginary loophole seems like a pretty easy concession to make.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 04:38 PM   #2
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,439
People are concerned about it because even though no "gun show loophole" exists, what some people are actually proposing is making all private, non-licensee transactions a matter of a federally regulated and checked procedure.

These proposals would not apply merely to gun shows, but to all private, non-licensee transactions.
zukiphile is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 04:45 PM   #3
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
The issue is not gun shows. The issue is private sales without background checks. Many such sales occur at gun shows because that's where the buyers happen to be, but in states where such transactions are allowed, they could just as well happen in a private home or in a gas station parking lot.

Many people object to the idea of the government looking over their shoulder if they choose to sell their own personal property.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 04:45 PM   #4
Battler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2000
Posts: 1,185
As mentioned, it's a backdoor or proxy to attacking the private sale. I think as an attack vector against the "RKBA" it makes an entity to the feds called the "gun show", which I don't think currently exists in law at least at the federal level. Gun shows represent an aggregate of, if you're against gun ownership, the wrong sort of people gathering in large numbers to do the wrong thing. It could open the door further to messing with gun shows as a full entity, or to harangue the non-gun dealers present at gun shows on future gun bills.
Battler is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 04:57 PM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
At first the mythology was that any gun could be bought without NICS or the other official forms of checks at gun shows.

This was shown to be untrue but it was argued that gun shows were an easy venue for private sellers to meet. Some shows had tables of 'private' sales that were there constantly or folks who always had a a few guns they toted around for 'private' sales.

Thus, the show was seen and called in some places a risk for or attractive nuisance for potentially illegal purchases.

Private sales at a show would have to go through a check. I presume the parking lot would be patrolled.

That's the story.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 05:02 PM   #6
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 9,333
I hate jumping into this frying pan, but I have 2 comments / questions...

BTW... I sell at only one local gun show, I do not sell weapons, but rather ammo, reloading components, & hunting stuff I no longer need ( it allows me funds for new purchases )... personally I'd like to bring a gun or two, but the local show I attend, requires a tax I.D. number ( which in essence means I'm a "business" ) my understanding of the laws ( & I'm not a lawyer, & hate that stuff ), is if I'm a business & selling guns without an FFL, then I'm in violation of the law... ( feel free to explain how / why I'm wrong... please )

I bought a gun from a guy a couple tables down from me at that local gun show, several years ago... the guy had 20-30 rifles for sale on his table, but didn't have an FFL, I didn't have to fill out any paperwork on the old Swiss straight pull bolt rifle I bought... it didn't make me nervous buying from him, but I would never put myself, as a seller, in that position ( legally )

my 2nd point, is more of an observation of the proposed changes... how on earth can these guys pass laws, that are in no shape or form enforceable ??? if I were to sell my buddy a gun I had before the ( pre all encompassing registration date ) there would be no record of me owning it, & thus no record of the sale... what motivation would either of us have for going to the gun shop & paying a fee to transfer that unregistered gun??? as an FYI... I "trade in" any handgun to the local FFL, as I want paper trail, that say's I don't own it any more, but that is just not practical on grandpa's shotgun... the proposed law is not inforceable ??? & in fact tempts regular law abiding citizens into becoming fire arms criminals... those passing such laws should be ashamed
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 05:06 PM   #7
Battler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2000
Posts: 1,185
Quote:
what motivation would either of us have for going to the gun shop & paying a fee to transfer that unregistered gun???
Peace of mind, which is probably worth more than $25 to you. The low likelihood of getting caught is mirrored by the unimaginable penalty if someone backtracks the gun to you for some reason and either of you mentions the terms of the sale.
Battler is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 05:50 PM   #8
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,197
Gotcha, thanks.
So the "loophole" is really just the fact that gun owners are exercising their 1st amendment rights along with their 2nd.

I have sold a few guns in parking lots - which is legal in my state. So that would be a marginal pain next time I want to change things up, but I'd still give them that - and the mental health reporting - over restrictions on what I can own.

Whether you agree with it or not at least those restrictions follow some sort of logic. As long as he didn't look suspicious a criminal in my state could buy pretty much any gun he wanted via the classifieds. My state also has very little gun crime, so I don't think it's an issue, but at least I can follow the line of reasoning.
Banning semi-autos with a pistol grip on the other hand....... not so much.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 06:29 PM   #9
lefteye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2006
Posts: 1,433
The "gun show loophole" does not exist. FFL dealers at gun shows are required to have the purchaser complete a 4473 and the FFL must submit the info to ATF for the NICS check which usually takes 30 seconds. This the same process that must be used at the FFL dealer's normal place of business.

Gun owners who are not FFL dealers may sell a firearm to another person at a gun show or at home without obtaining a 4473 and submitting it to the ATF for a NICS check.

In other words, gun owners who are not FFL dealers are not treated by federal law as though they were FFL dealers.

If anti-gun people insist on calling this a "loophole", they should refer to it as the "private sale loophole", the same "loophole" that exists for any personal property for which there is no registration or license requirement such as a used lawn mower or virtually any other product often found at a garage sale.

PS I believe sellers at gun shows in some jurisdictions must be FFL dealers and some jurisdictions do not allow gun shows.
__________________
Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70)
NRA Life Member
RMEF Life Member

Last edited by lefteye; January 15, 2013 at 07:05 PM.
lefteye is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 06:38 PM   #10
JWT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2007
Location: Southern Arizona
Posts: 3,888
The Gun Show Loophole is a favorite whipping boy and talking point for Bloomberg in particular.

The anti gunners, and hence the media, claim 40% of guns are sold without background checks. Anyone know where they ginned up that number. Seems extraordinarily high to me.
JWT is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 07:09 PM   #11
JimDandy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2012
Posts: 2,556
Plus there's an added and blatant in-your-face expense involved. When you buy from a dealer that gets absorbed into your final bill and you can't see it. When you buy from a private sale and have to jump the hoops, you end up paying that use fee, and possibly a use tax on top of it.
JimDandy is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 07:13 PM   #12
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,461
Are there any other private transactions between individuals that are required to go through such a check?

Quote:
The anti gunners, and hence the media, claim 40% of guns are sold without background checks. Anyone know where they ginned up that number. Seems extraordinarily high to me.
I believe it's a statistic widely cited by the Brady Campaign, so of course it's highly scientific and unbiased.

We've been running an informal poll at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511888 and after 74 responses, the mathematical weighted average is 23.5%, and that among those of us who are much more familiar with firearms and firearms transactions than the average US citizen. The average in the general population is probably much lower.

Last edited by spacecoast; January 15, 2013 at 07:20 PM.
spacecoast is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 07:35 PM   #13
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
I'd challenge anyone to come up with even anecdotal evidence that gun shows are a significant source for crime guns.

Lanza didn't buy one there. Cho, Loughner, Holmes, and the others didn't buy one there.

Folks, gun shows and private sales are simply not a big enough problem that they need to be regulated. Asking for more restrictions, no matter how "harmless" they may seem, is a slippery slope.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 08:04 PM   #14
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
An attempt to cancel gun shows at the Austin event center was turned down by the City Council. State Attorney General told them he would sue them into the ground.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 08:18 PM   #15
Battler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2000
Posts: 1,185
Mass-shooting-driven gun control pushes end up conflating the unrelated "crime stats" and "mass shootings".

Crime = Chicago, DC etc. = Ban Private Sale + "oh I lost it" (registration equivalent)

Mass Shootings = Ban certain Hardware Types


It appears that the realistic gun control push at the federal level will be against mags and the private sale.
Battler is offline  
Old January 15, 2013, 09:25 PM   #16
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2012
Posts: 755
It was was a problem that was "created" by the media and anti gunners. They needed a reason to go after private gun sales, so they made the gun show loophole. They claim you can walk into a gun show and purchase a fully automatic firearm, grenade launcher, and even RPG's. the talk about it repeatedly on TV and the sheep eventually say"bah..bah, gun shows are bahhhddd". So it begins. The same as most "anti's" have no idea that an AR-15 fires only one round when the trigger is depressed. This is a world of manipulation and misinformation of the media and the anti gun crowd. It is hard to convince people that their politicians and their favorite news station, has lied or fed them misinformation...
__________________
" The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to
keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect
themselves against tyranny in Government.
..." - Thomas Jefferson
CharlieDeltaJuliet is offline  
Old January 16, 2013, 01:34 AM   #17
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
Quote:
The anti gunners, and hence the media, claim 40% of guns are sold without background checks. Anyone know where they ginned up that number. Seems extraordinarily high to me.
I think I found the primary source of this statistic. Which as you'll note says "Perhaps" and then fails to provide any reference

Quote:
Today, private parties can buy
and sell many guns a year while
claiming not to be engaged in
the business. Perhaps 40% of all
gun sales nationwide — roughly
6.6 million transactions in 2008
— are made by private parties.
Moreover, private parties can sell
handguns to anyone 18 years of
age or older; licensed retailers
cannot sell handguns to anyone
under 21 years of age
Source
sigcurious is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 03:01 PM   #18
Seeker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2001
Location: Lacomb, Oregon
Posts: 1,393
I live in Oregon, where there is no registration on firearms, and have been many gun shows here but not in any other states. I see people having their backgrounds checked at gun shows, and believed this to be the case across the country, so was confused by the "Gun Show Loophole". I thought the "Gun Show Loophole" dog and pony show was resolved back when the anti-gun types called it "Kitchen Table" sales.

The anti-gun types seem to be very effective in pushing this aspect of their gun-control, and the only real motivation I can see is that to regulate private transactions would require that the item being bought/sold be logged in a database that tracks who owns what, I just don't see any way to require background checks of private transactions without a national registry and big trouble for possessing an un-registered firearm.

So it seems to me that the purpose for universal background checks is universal gun registration and this has been their goal for a long time.
__________________
Molon Labe
Seeker

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson
Don't Tread On Me!
"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson

In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us.
-Thich Nhat Hanh
Seeker is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 05:04 PM   #19
mayosligo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 301
When you are a private seller at the gun shows I have been to, you have to sign in, show ID and sign in the gun as well as yourself as a person selling. Meanwhile there are deputies and ATF folks at the show. What criminals are visiting these shows to engage in illegal sales?
mayosligo is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 06:41 PM   #20
Dan F
Member
 
Join Date: July 13, 2011
Location: MD *gah*
Posts: 57
This is a link to an article discussing how disingenuous the President and other gun control proponents are in their use of the statistics in this study, summarized here.

Among other things, the author points out that the survey was done almost 20 years ago (1994), had a very small sample size (251), that over 75% of the referenced sales occurred before mandatory checks were implemented, and that if you break out the data to expose assumptions made (about friends, family, and other transfers), a truer number of unchecked transactions is 11.5%.

I also located this report, by the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2001, that surveyed inmates on how they obtained firearms, and what firearms they used. Less that 2% obtained them at gun shows or flea markets (what percentage of those had background checks done was not specified), and less than 2% used full auto or the dreaded “military-style semiautomatic firearm” (pistols, rifles or shotguns with high capacity mags and the usual scary cosmetic features).
Dan F is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 06:44 PM   #21
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
The source at the link is the New England Journal of Medicine. The NEJM is a long time gun hating outfit known for making up "statistics".
thallub is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 08:22 PM   #22
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Quote:
y question is why - if it doesn't exist to begin with - are so many people opposed to closing this loophole
HUH?!?!? If it doesn't exist, how can it be closed?

It does NOT exist - period. Folks are free (in most states) to sell their private property to someone who wants to buy it. They are free to sell guns at garage sales - been there done that - through newspaper ads - again been there done that - or in the parking lot of ....(fill in the blank).

Some folks prefer to hit a target audience - those found at gun shows. no different than you taking your used car to a car show and trying to find a buyer, or your lawn equipment to a garden show, or any of a number of alternatives analogies
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 09:10 PM   #23
Justice06RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2010
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,360
Quote:
Peace of mind, which is probably worth more than $25 to you. The low likelihood of getting caught is mirrored by the unimaginable penalty if someone backtracks the gun to you for some reason and either of you mentions the terms of the sale.
Peace of mind can be free if you use a Bill of Sale when you sell any firearm. No need to pay $25 or whatever cost to the LGS. Keep records of all your firearm sales if you choose, and keep them in your home.

On that regard, even if a gun you previously owned was used a crime after you sold it to someone else, the court would have to prove you were in possesion of the gun and was there at the scene of the crime. Nothing to worry about if you actually aren't involved in the crime.

Same thing if you sell a car to a private individual. If later that week after you sell your car, the new owner does a felony with the vehicle (robbery etc), they have to prove you were driving it (which you won't be.)
Justice06RR is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 10:06 PM   #24
Madcap_Magician
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 668
There is a 'gun show loophole' that I wouldn't mind closing, but am generally also neutral toward.

I see some private sellers who are at every gun show in the state, all the time, always with a table full of guns, never the same guns, who actively buy and sell at the shows. They are not FFL holders, but 'private individuals selling their collection.'

This seems like an open dodge to me, as it appears to me that they meet the legal definition of a dealer, as they are in the regular business of buying and selling firearms, so it seems like they should have an FFL.

I know they're not an FFL because I've sold two guns and bought one from two of these non-dealer dealers.
Madcap_Magician is offline  
Old February 4, 2013, 11:34 PM   #25
kozak6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 3,113
Gun shows don't have anything to do with it. That's just what it's called because it sounds scary. Pretty much every guy selling guns from a table has (or needs!!!) an FFL and will conduct background checks. Sure, private sellers might bring a few guns in, but not that many.

What it really regulates is private sales of firearms.

Should you be able to sell a gun to someone without federal involvement? That's all it comes down to. Nothing more, nothing less.
kozak6 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.13334 seconds with 10 queries