Do you de-cap your brass?

[larryh1108]

Dry media, clean then de-cap
Wet media, decap then tumble.
Nothing worse than dry media in flash holes.
Talk about extra work!

[Real Gun]

My brass is washed before tumbled and polished before decapping/sizing. Lately the 45 Colt cases are really "stiff" going into decapping/resizing, so I spray them with One Shot for a nice, smooth action. I plan to add more car wax to the media and see if the One Shot expense can be cutback.

Lee's notion that brass should be processed dirty (and separately from any progressive sequence) seems absurd to me. One Shot to the rescue, but let's wash those cases first.

[GJSchulze]

I think your digging for a answer your never going to find

No, if that's what everyone says then I'll know there really isn't any scientific or experiential basis and is likely voodoo. I don't mean that as an insult, when I was into stereo equipment there was a lot of voodoo, too.

I do it to know the flame is going to shoot into hole same way every time

Read the rest of my post. I'm saying that you don't know that because of the other variables present. And being an engineer, I don't see how believing that it works makes you shoot any better.

What I believe is that these beliefs get handed down from person to person and people lose the context with which it was meant. A lot of this seems to make sense, but does it in fact make a difference? And maybe some of it does under certain circumstances. Does an army sharpshooter, who is aiming at someone hundreds of yards away load his own or does he use the ammo that is provided to him? Maybe someone can answer that, but I'm betting that out in the field there's no way they can reload.

Remember, 90% of half the stuff you read on the Internet is not true. I think Ben Franklin said that.

[schmellba99]

There are thousands of variables as it is in making a case filled with powder go boom.

Does cleaning the primer pockets on pistol brass make any difference? Likely not, and you'd be hard pressed to find somebody that honestly claims it does.

And while it may not make a smidge of difference one way or another, I can guarantee you that cleaning the primer pockets does absolutely nothing to negatively impact the thousands of variables inherent the grand equation of reloading. So rather than prove that it helps, can you prove that it hurts?

If that answer is "no", and it is with almost certainty, then there is no loss.

In any reloading process one step is depriming spent brass and another step is cleaning said brass. One before the other is not right or wrong, but both need to be done. I prefer to deprime first, clean second.

I clean them first because, like another poster said, I want to, I have the tools to easily do so, it makes me feel better about the ammo I have loaded (and regardless of what you think, when one is confident in their equipment they do tend to perform with said equipment better), and most importantly - imparts no negative benefit to the whole process.

In fact, since you are an engineer, it could be argued that you are eliminating, even if only to a small degree, a negative variable by starting with clean brass versus pressing a new primer into a primer pocket that is caked with built up carbon deposits. Would you not agree to that much?

[GJSchulze]

So rather than prove that it helps, can you prove that it hurts

You can't prove a negative. It's a meaningless question because it has no answer. Really, I'm just trying to get people to think about it.

If that answer is "no", and it is with almost certainty, then there is no loss.

The loss would be the time spent in doing so. The loss would be in using that time to practice shooting more which would have more effect on accuracy than a clean pocket.

I prefer to deprime first, clean second.

I only shoot pistol for which the reloading process is different, in part because I use a progressive press. Depriming first really defeats the purpose of using a progressive. Pistol shooters use more ammo and that is a factor in how things are done. Also, in shooting a pistol freestyle, and not from a bench, your own ability far outweighs your reloading process.

If you use a single stage press to reload rifle, then certainly depriming first and then cleaning takes the same amount of time as the reverse and you might as well do it that way. I would.

In fact, since you are an engineer, it could be argued that you are eliminating, even if only to a small degree, a negative variable by starting with clean brass versus pressing a new primer into a primer pocket that is caked with built up carbon deposits. Would you not agree to that much?

You have me mistaken for a scientist. An engineer most certainly considers the cost vs. value of a process. I'm not sure what a mathematician would do, he'd probably still be counting his components.

One of the things this conversation points out is that when people discuss reloading, they quite often do not say whether they are talking about rifle or pistol. It matters and when some newbie, who shoots pistol, asks about reloading and a rifle person answers, the pistol person can be led into a step that wastes his time or gets him distracted from something important. Or a new rifle person might skip a step if he gets answer by a pistol person. I've seen this in magazine articles, too.

[CrustyFN]

I tumble with the primer in. Take them out and load as normal. Go shoot and repeat.

[tobnpr]

Tumble/Clean.
Then run through the progressive press- decap/size in one stroke.

"Clean" primer pockets having a "benefit" is B.S.

[fct10]

I agree with Jepp2 and others.

I use universal de-capping die, then tumble, then lube,resize, trim and tumble again.

It is an extra step but I find it helps with primer pocket and makes full length resizing easier.

I have a small ultrasonic but have not tried it.

[schmellba99]

You can't prove a negative. It's a meaningless question because it has no answer. Really, I'm just trying to get people to think about it.

Yes, you can prove a negative. It's not hard to do.

The loss would be the time spent in doing so. The loss would be in using that time to practice shooting more which would have more effect on accuracy than a clean pocket.

You assume the time is lost. That is a completely arbitrary assumption that cannot be proven or applied universally to everybody. For me, the time is not lost because I prefer my brass to have clean primer pockets and to deal with dirt only in the decapping process. That's not a loss if it is of value to me.

I only shoot pistol for which the reloading process is different, in part because I use a progressive press. Depriming first really defeats the purpose of using a progressive. Pistol shooters use more ammo and that is a factor in how things are done. Also, in shooting a pistol freestyle, and not from a bench, your own ability far outweighs your reloading process.

I disagree that depriming first defeats the purpose of a progressive. I still load my rounds as quickly when I start with clean brass. Depriming and cleaning is a separate step from loading. Does it take a little more time? Sure, but time and the value thereof is a relative variable.

You have me mistaken for a scientist. An engineer most certainly considers the cost vs. value of a process. I'm not sure what a mathematician would do, he'd probably still be counting his components.

Since I work with a broad spectrum of engineers on a daily basis, I'd argue vehemently that engineers may think they consider cost versus value, but very few actually understand what either really means.

One of the things this conversation points out is that when people discuss reloading, they quite often do not say whether they are talking about rifle or pistol. It matters and when some newbie, who shoots pistol, asks about reloading and a rifle person answers, the pistol person can be led into a step that wastes his time or gets him distracted from something important. Or a new rifle person might skip a step if he gets answer by a pistol person. I've seen this in magazine articles, too.

True, and I'd agree that it is generally not a necessary aspect of reloading to clean primer pockets, even with rifle reloading for the vast majority of people. A clean pocket or dirty pocket on rifle brass isn't going to make much of a difference at 200 yards on a deer with a vital region 10" in diameter. But yet it is perfectly acceptable to state that cleaning primer pockets in rifles is a necessary step, but not pistol?

Again, there may be absolutely no material performance benefit to cleaning the primer pockets in pistol brass, proving there is would be difficult. But an nth of logic would tell you that there is no negative benefit from a performance standpoint, and if there is no negative benefit, then it's impossible to state with certainty that it is a waste of time.

And since I am going to clean brass prior to loading it anyway, depriming and cleaning the pockets is not enough effort in addition to what is already required to deter me from doing it. And that means that it is not a negative benefit to me.

[tobnpr]

In fact, since you are an engineer, it could be argued that you are eliminating, even if only to a small degree, a negative variable by starting with clean brass versus pressing a new primer into a primer pocket that is caked with built up carbon deposits. Would you not agree to that much?

Even if the primer pocket were "caked" (and I've yet to see that, with my own brass with excess of a dozen reloads) with carbon as you say, you are assuming that's a "negative" variable, as you have no basis in fact or evidence to base that opinion. As long as the flash hole isn't obstructed, I see no reason for that assumption.

In fact, I have seen proof to the contrary, which is why I made my statement above.

I raised this issue a couple of years ago at the 'Hide.

One of the members- with access to an RSI Pressure Trace- thought it was interesting enough to test the hypothesis, and he did. "Clean" primer pockets, vs. "dirty". Given that he conducted the test himself, it was somewhat "unscientific"....but, it was good enough for me.

I saw the results...burn rates/times, pressure spikes, peak pressures, etc....all MORE consistent with "dirty" primer pockets.

Given that everyone has their own beliefs and what are almost religious-like rituals with their reloading process, I don't expect anyone to take my word for it

[GJSchulze]

Yes, you can prove a negative. It's not hard to do.

I contend that there is a flying teacup in orbit around the earth. Please provide scientific proof that there is no teacup.
Prove to me that there is no Loch Ness monster.
Prove to me that there isn't a pig somewhere that can fly.

My point is that it is not up to someone to prove a negative; if you assert something then it is up to you to prove it correct. If you want to say you prefer clean pockets, but you have no proof that it helps, that's different and acceptable. Just don't tell me I can't say that the time wasted cleaning pockets could be put to better use improving your shooting in some other way.

I saw the results...burn rates/times, pressure spikes, peak pressures, etc....all MORE consistent with "dirty" primer pockets.

Was there any theory as to why a dirty pocket makes it more consistent, because I can't think of any. Maybe it creates a better seal?

[Brotherbadger]

I clean, then resize.

[tobnpr]

Was there any theory as to why a dirty pocket makes it more consistent, because I can't think of any. Maybe it creates a better seal?

No sir...way above my pay grade. Gas leakage shouldn't occur whether the primer pocket is shiny-clean, or has powder residue.

And actually, I was a bit surprised myself that there was a difference.

The point of the exercise wasn't to test a theory that "dirty" primer pockets had some sort of advantage; our belief was that it was simply irrelevant- like not being able to shave in the reflection from your brass if it wasn't "clean" enough.

When the 'Hide went to their new format a year or more ago (I forget when), all of the PM's prior to that date were lost or I'd gladly dig it up.

[schmellba99]

My point is that it is not up to someone to prove a negative; if you assert something then it is up to you to prove it correct. If you want to say you prefer clean pockets, but you have no proof that it helps, that's different and acceptable. Just don't tell me I can't say that the time wasted cleaning pockets could be put to better use improving your shooting in some other way.

Where did I ever state that it was better, made one a better shooter or anything remotely close?

You are the one that is stating that it is irrelevant and that clean makes no difference, I simply asked to provide proof as to why you can make that claim with such certainty. I don't necessarily disagree with that, other than stating simply that a clean pocket may not help, but any nth of logic will tell you that it is not going to hurt. Nothing more, nothing less.

My only argument on the time is that it is such a subjective matter that you can't even begin to quantify it, at least in any form of method that can be applied across more than a spectrum of 1 person. Besides, it's not like I can bottle up the time used to clean the primer pockets and then use it in one chunk - you are literally talking about a few minutes here, a few minutes there. Cumulatively it may be a lot, but the reality is that it's small chunks not even really in a predictable pattern.

[CrustyFN]

My only argument on the time is that it is such a subjective matter that you can't even begin to quantify it, at least in any form of method that can be applied across more than a spectrum of 1 person. Besides, it's not like I can bottle up the time used to clean the primer pockets and then use it in one chunk - you are literally talking about a few minutes here, a few minutes there. Cumulatively it may be a lot, but the reality is that it's small chunks not even really in a predictable pattern.

You say a few minutes. Can you help me out and tell me how long it would take you to do the extra decaping step and clean 600 primer pockets. I have no idea because I have never done it. For me it seems like a waste of time. I can clean 600 cases in my tumbler and have them ready to load and only have four minutes of my time involved. I load while the tumbler is doing the work.

[Glen-Bob]

De-prime with universal die. Then tumble and resize, I too want clean brass in my dies. May not make a difference but I like the thought.

[Real Gun]

I wouldn't bother depriming for blasting grade handgun ammo. That's what a progressive does for me.