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Old August 13, 2007, 10:50 PM   #51
redblair
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Interesting the views expressed. Do I like to be aware of my surrounding and able to protect myself if need be, certainly. Does that mean that I am unable to relax, seeing attackers at every corner, not the least. I walk every day with my iPod on unconcerned but aware. In Baltimore does that mean that I may be murder number 205? Perhaps but unlikely. I don't frequent those areas. At night I am more vigilant as the risks are higher.

It's a balance. Aware but not paranoid or fearful.

Best,

B
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Old August 14, 2007, 01:10 AM   #52
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Oh Wild, its not like that and you know it. I was just annoyed at all the nonsense some people keep spouting. (granted, I am by no means immune to doing it myself)

Just every time some person talks about things like this, the words tinfoil and paranoid fly around like ninja stars at a shopping mall. It just gets a little frustrating. Anyone with common sense knows what the poster is trying to convey with this thread.

03Shadowbob wrote:

Derius,
Quote:
What I wrote had everything to do with the original post. The dude left his house one night without his pistol and he felt it worthy to post because some gang-banger wannabes were playing music loudly? RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
Thats so rediculous, and you know it. Its just things people train and condition themselves to do to make the lives, and the lives of those who depend on them to be safer. I carry everywhere I go, and there have been a few times, where certain things have dictated that I go unarmed, and it ALWAYS makes me uneasy. You just never know WHEN, not if, it will happen to you, thats all.

And I have been in more life and death moments in my life than I care to relay here. I don't plan to be in any more if I can help it. That is while I am prepaired, not paranoid. I KNOW what can happen. It is better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

Same reasons I carry a small knife, a lighter (though I no longer smoke), and a small led flashlight, or jumper cables in my truck. Does that mke me paranoid, or prepaired?
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Old August 14, 2007, 10:56 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derius_T
tinfoil and paranoid fly around like ninja stars at a shopping mall
I once debated a liberal guy on personal self defense. I proposed a scenario where we both went uptown to the Monona Terrace in my town for a bit of culture.

I further opined that as we left, we would now have to enter a dark parking ramp to retrieve his car. At that moment an armed mugger would appear.

I described how this friend might be threatened with death, but could not respond. I painted a picture on how he might ask me for help, and I proffered,

"No, friend, not me. You think guns are evil and I would insult your core beliefs to save one life."

I then described how a deperate drug-juiced attacker might start cutting him to emphasize his point.

I told him, trust me, at some point of the slashing you're going to yell, "Tourist, shoot him...!"

Mr. Wild might actually believe what he is saying--in the quiet confines of a forum exchanging ideas. But that is not what this is about. This is a debate on how foolishness and the simple act of not being prepared can develope into a serious attack.

So what if nothing happened? That's a crap-shoot of dumb luck where I trust my attacker to save my life.

Like anyone else, if this thread of was actually an exchange on a dark street, Mr. Wild would be screaming, "Derius, shoot him!"
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Old August 14, 2007, 06:06 PM   #54
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I choose not to live my life in a paranoid condition X, in fear of some imaginary and highly improbable event! I don't see BG's lurking around every corner. I simply avoid crime prone areas. I own defensive weapons but the chance I will ever have to use one is right up there with winning the lottery.
By the way, I too like butterflies and rainbows and have no desire for Rambo to come to my rescue, thank you!
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Old August 14, 2007, 06:45 PM   #55
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Wild you are so RIGHT alot of Rambo Wannabes who would piss thier pants in the first firefight they would get in. They all want to save the world and taste combat. Well i have drank from that cup and i would do it again in a minute but my hope is to never have to pull a trigger on a person again. My fire fights came in 91 in the desert. Shoot outs are nothing to look forward to and i sure can tell some of them want to. Well good luck. Alaska you hit it with paranoia. I gotta have my gun but to hell with the seat belt and by the way give me another drink and a smoke but i wont take a leak without a gun!
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Old August 14, 2007, 07:23 PM   #56
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Tourist, well said. It makes some people feel empowered to make snide remarks, or to accuse someone of cowardice or what have oyu, from behind the safety of thier screens. I much doubt the same words would be used in person.

Junytuck wrote:

Quote:
I choose not to live my life in a paranoid condition X, in fear of some imaginary and highly improbable event! I don't see BG's lurking around every corner. I simply avoid crime prone areas. I own defensive weapons but the chance I will ever have to use one is right up there with winning the lottery.
By the way, I too like butterflies and rainbows and have no desire for Rambo to come to my rescue, thank you!
There is really nothing I can say to that. It is your life, and your choice to live your life that way. All I will say is that for your sake, I pray you are right, and that nothing bad happens in your sunny, fuzzy bunny filled world.

In fact, I wish the same for ALL of us. That none of us EVER faces tradgedy, or death. And that none of us EVER has to be forced to take a life.

I just choose to be a realist, and to be prepaired just in case. If that makes me paranoid, so be it. You can blame the life I have led, and the things I have suffered and seen for that.
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Old August 14, 2007, 08:09 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JunyTuck
I don't see BG's lurking around every corner.
Until recently, I might have agreed with you.

The problem in Madison is that the very area they are trying to develope as a theatre district replete with better restaurants, is on the same street (State Street) where there has been the biggest influx of assaults.

It is also an area of dark side streets and parking ramps with multi-level stair wells.

In other words, if I was a working thug, it would be exactly the place I would go. Tragically, a lot of real thugs are, in fact, headed there. Yikes, they darn near burn the place down every Halloween.

But I do not see this as a black/white, all/nothing situation. I am not saying there are only two sides, that being armed/disarmed.

You'll remember that I also added my condition of 'white' as a contributing factor. You can have the best super-slick 1911 in the world, but if your attention is somewhere else...

And Derius, thanks.
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Old August 14, 2007, 09:40 PM   #58
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Quote:
Mr. Wild might actually believe what he is saying--in the quiet confines of a forum exchanging ideas. But that is not what this is about. This is a debate on how foolishness and the simple act of not being prepared can develope into a serious attack.
Mr Wild believes what he says. Mr. Wild will say it to anyones face too

Mr. Wild believes that some of you guys go way overboard on this stuff. But hey, you wanna live your life a certain way, go for it. Just dont get upset when your choices arent vindicated.

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Old August 14, 2007, 09:43 PM   #59
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Tourist,
Seriously now..Madison is no LA, Miami, Philly. Hell it's not even a Charlotte NC when it comes to crime, etc. I live in WPB FL that ranks number 7 in the country with violent crimes and there aren't bad crimes on every corner and it is a lot smaller than Madison, IIRC.

I think some of where you are getting flak from is
Quote:
After I bought the ice cream, I walked back to the SUV, and realized that a group of 'banger wannabees where shucking and jiving at the far end of the lot. While no threat to me at that distance,
and
Quote:
I screwed up big time. And the only possible saving grace to my plight was the loud music that shook me out of condition white.
Were the guys across the parking lot a threat or not? If not, why was the loud music your "saving grace". That is almost as ridiculous as saying you were almost killed by someone who blew a red light a mile ahead of you but thank god for those brake lights up ahead were your saving grace.

Face it, the only bad thing that could have happened to you leaving the store was you stubbing your big toe on the curb. Your post comes off as paranoid and not "I wasn't prepared".

My .02. Now I am done with this one.
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Old August 14, 2007, 10:14 PM   #60
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Wild perhaps not being able to find your seecamp has more to do with diminishing vision and the aging process?

B
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Old August 14, 2007, 10:18 PM   #61
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YIKES, this thread is somewhat disturbing. Condition White, Condition Yellow....man some of you cats take the CCW thing serious don't you? I believe in LEGAL CCW and love guns, but dang!


Quote:
Wild you are so RIGHT alot of Rambo Wannabes who would piss thier pants in the first firefight they would get in. They all want to save the world and taste combat. Well i have drank from that cup and i would do it again in a minute but my hope is to never have to pull a trigger on a person again.

Amen, Amen!! Having been a LEO for far too many years and having been involved in a fatal shootout during that career, something that in "real life" is not fun even when completely justified. Some of the folks (not pointing fingers at ANYONE in this thread, just making a statement in general) that carry on about carrying and badguys and life or death on the streets scare the crap outta me worse than any shuckin and jivin bad guy ever did. Alot of the time too these type guys have never faced a true life or death situation or bad guy, expect those paper ones on the range and yes if they ever do many of them's pants would be wet. But they sure do shoot the eyes outta that paper target.
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Old August 14, 2007, 10:19 PM   #62
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Red I am the king of space cadets

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Old August 14, 2007, 10:31 PM   #63
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Wild,

I've never made it above crown prince for any space work. Even that time in the 90's when I followed Phish. Good times they tell me.

B
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Old August 15, 2007, 12:19 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03Shadowbob
Tourist, Seriously now..Madison is no LA, Miami, Philly.
Dead is dead.
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Old August 15, 2007, 05:25 PM   #65
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Quote:
Dead is dead

I'll give you some comfort then. According to the FBI your violent crime rate in Madison is one of the lowest in the entire country. In 2005 there were on TWO (2) MURDERS and the FBI reports contain a population area for Madison 221,000. Given that 221,000 pop area the AVERAGE Murder rate for that size area is TWENTY-EIGHT (28) murders per year. The city I retired from law enforcement had a pop of around 360,000 and on a very off year we averaged 40 Murders and we were considered a low violent crime rate city then. Shoot (pun intended) most US towns with popoulations of only 15,000 average 2 murders per year. So at only 2 I think the trip for ice cream was safe even in "condition white".

With those low crime rates I bet those shuckin and jivin teens were probably music majors instead of the inferred gang bangers.


FBI Crime Rates
Type 2005 Madison Crime Index
Madison Violent Crimes:
Madison Murders: 2

 Based on the final 2005 FBI Crime Reports.
 Results are tabulated using the Madison crime collection area population of 221,419.
 Madison crime collection population may not match US Census data. Population is based on the agencies participating in the reporting.
 2006 Madison crime stats will be available October 2007.
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Old August 15, 2007, 05:36 PM   #66
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Consider your azz kicked. Go forth, and be armed always, verily I command you.

Oh, and get a haircut, hippie!
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Old August 15, 2007, 06:37 PM   #67
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a bunch of kids on a street corner listening to some tunes are a reason to go to condition Bravo Xray 37!!!!!! (that means arm the nukes and make ready to deploy them) Kids on a street corner and tunes? Not that many years ago i was one of them. Kids cant spend all thier time in church. In the town where i lived there was a parking lot that the kids used to hang at and it was right on the main drag. Well alot of people were terified of them and wanted to run them to the gallows. I used to walk home from work every night and would stop and talk to them. They were good kids just playing some tunes and looking for girls and the girls looking for guys. Harmless. I know not everyone is harmless but to be honest i would rather face a gun one night unarmed that go through life paranoid and looking at the bad side of life and being all wound up about the what ifs. Hell what if the sky falls?? i will use caution and good judgment and enjoy my life. Being a Marine maybe i am just being a "jar head". in my opinion the bigger threat to CCW is not the liberals its that one day a CCW Rambo wannabe is going to go postal on a group of innocent people who in his paranoid mind are a threat and kill a few people and put gas on the fire of the anti gun crowd. Wild Alaska i think you are right on!
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Old August 15, 2007, 09:49 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsky
your violent crime rate in Madison is one of the lowest in the entire country
I understand your perspective. However, just as one member here likened 'real crime' to areas like Philly, it's kind of a 'so what' statistic if you're the one who gets killed.

For example, what would you say if some one like Diane Feinstein pushed for total personal disarmament because "crime statistics in all of the USA are lower than in Tikrit."

The folks in my area are quite concerned. This increase isn't from wannabees. It's from second-rate 'bangers who get displaced from Chicago. We get their welfare cast-offs, and now we get 'bangers opening new drug areas and making their bones.

Another running shooting war was played out last night. The police found the area, littered with spent brass.

Personally, I don't feel like putting my head in the sand until someone really close to me gets shot while in condition white. That's like putting up a warning sign after a 'real death' takes place.

Let me put it to you this way. Lots of you might criticize what you read here.

To that I say, "Well, turn in your CCW license. After all, you didn't need it last night, because you didn't get killed."

And the smug attitude about 'you needing it more than I do' is just elitist. If you believe you're in more danger, then an intelligent man would move.
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Old August 16, 2007, 04:16 AM   #69
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Well it appears that we have two mindsets here that just won't budge.

This could have been an extremely beneficial discussion. I see a wealth of merit from several angles.
However... Instead of taking a members' personal experience and logically evaluating it and turning it into a positive tactical discussion it has de-evolved into yet another sophmoric exercise in self-righteous finger pointing.
The remarks of some folks that I once held in high esteem have splattered urine stains over the entire proceeding.
My gosh people you'd think this was the DU and not the Tactics and Training area of a pro-firearms forum. A smart anti would have a field day with this thread.


Tourist, thank you for your insights. I see positives and negatives in your original experience, but it's good that you took an everyday event and turned it into a learning experience. That's how you evolve. I am sure it was helpful to many others as well.
(If you'd like to discuss it in private feel free to PM me.)
But you must realize that some people just don't get it and never will.
You cannot educate a mind that already knows it all.
Just remember to practice what's right for you. May you continue to grow and be safe.


This embarassment has reminded me of some very wise observations from folks I still hold in high regard;

It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do.
Baba Louie THR 09/29/03


Even if the other person is absolutely and completely WRONG, they've usually got a decently thought-out argument to back up their clueless posts.
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Old August 16, 2007, 05:38 AM   #70
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I have trouble believing that this topic generated any argument at all. I guess we are beyond the point of being able to make our own minds up on this issue?

Unsubscribing from this one.
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Old August 16, 2007, 10:57 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invssgt
generated any argument
I didn't think it would generate any argument at all. Since we're the good guys, and "we" claim (or infer) that personal safety and firearms are the core beliefs, I figured I'd get some debate on what I should have done.

I figured I'd be teased ('unarmed biker in basketball shorts'), but I hoped there would be some serious discussion of real urban scenarios, being in white, being unarmed or without pepper-spray and some creative thoughts.

I never imagined criticism from folks supposedly all on the same side.

In fact, this "you don't need guns in Madison" folly smells a lot like the rhetoric we hear constantly from our liberal governor, Jim Doyle.

If you really want to stir the pot, let's pass legislation called "The Madison Model."

If Madison is called a zone of safety, even by guys with CCW permits, then we have bridged the gap between gun owners and the gun control crowd. It should be easy to ascertain what our local murder rate is per 100,000 using the FBI's own Uniform Crime Statistics.

Using that number, if your local crime rate drops to 'The Madison Rate,' then all of your CCW permits are invalid until the crime rate in your area once again increases.

I'm sure some of you might ask, "But Tourist, what are we supposed to do in the mean time without our guns? There is still some level of crime?"

To those people I suggest the following. Don't ever go to any place, ever, where there has been or is currently a drug market.

"But Tourist, that one-third of my city's downtown area!" Tough nuggies, buddy. If I get accused of being Rambo, so do you.

"But Toursit, what if I'm one of the first few killed while the CCW licenses are invalid?" Again, tough nuggies. Dead is dead, even in a statistically low crime area. Playing by the numbers, your life has really no nationally important meaning in overall safety.

"But Tourist, the bad guys still have guns!" Well, so does your local law enforcement. Do what we who live inside "The Madison Model" are admonished to do. That is, call 9-1-1 and keep your knees together.

Oh, and don't ever wear basketball shorts after dark. It riles the elite mall ninjas...
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Old August 17, 2007, 02:06 PM   #72
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kgpcr wrote:

Quote:
I know not everyone is harmless but to be honest i would rather face a gun one night unarmed that go through life paranoid and looking at the bad side of life and being all wound up about the what ifs.
You would rather face a gun unarmed. than take the simple precaution that a CCW affords you? Do you even realize how that statement sounds? No sane person would want a gun shoved in their face, with no way to defend themselves. Lets just hope you never get your wish, for your sake.

Tourist. Like Bluesbear said, some people will never get it. The thing that scares me the most, on a pro-gun forum, is how many people sound suspiciously like anti's with their arguments and reasoning.....

This is the very LAST place you would ever think of being treated this way, torn apart and covered in tinfoil because you forgot your gun and felt uneasy. If that makes us rambos, then so be it. If I remember right, rambo is the only guy left alive at the end.
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Old August 17, 2007, 02:32 PM   #73
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This lady sure wishes she had her gun with her JUST THIS ONE EVENING.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhyuJ...ic%2F800%2Ecfm

You never know when evil will show up at your feet...

:barf:
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Old August 17, 2007, 05:26 PM   #74
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‘Paranoia: A perfect perception of that reality which is always there, waiting, behind a benevolent, 'social mask’.

In 1990 my home was invaded, bright and early, on a Sunday morning. The guy was as big as he was filthy dirty; I was 3 days out of the hospital; and, he had me cold! I, even, started to say my prayers; but, then, my Pit Bull growled from the top of the stairs, and reminded me that I owned two well-trained guard dogs. (Reminded the home invader, too!)

In 1997 my wife sent me to the store around 9:30 pm because she ran out of milk while making Thanksgiving cookies. I was driving a brand new Chevy Blazer, complete with all the eye candy you might expect. As I walked back to my vehicle I heard very soft footsteps coming up, quickly, behind me. I turned my strong side away from the sound and looked over my support shoulder to see a swarthy male taking very long steps as he came running up behind me. I didn’t wait; I stepped toward him and snapped open a large CRKT folder that I kept hidden behind my leg.

In the silence of that darkened parking lot the snap sounded loud enough to be a gunshot. The guy actually froze in mid-stride; and there we stood, staring at each other for what seemed like an eternity. All of a sudden he got stupid; he took his hands out of his jacket pockets and goofily asked me if I were, ‘Dominic’? I just stared him down while I shook my head; ‘No!’ He got even dumber and started to back up.

When I realized that the fight was out of him, I let him increase the distance between us. Still, I’ll always wonder what he might have done if he’d realized I was holding a knife instead of a gun? That was the last time I, ever, went anywhere without at least one gun.

As for my wife? Even though she had a CCW permit, she refused to carry for more than ten years. (She's a very gentle person.) Then, one evening during the Fall of 2005, two gangbangers attempted to steal her new car. She did everything completely completely wrong; but, she did manage to jump into the car, ran over one guy's foot, and got away!

She came home that evening an hour late, quite frazzled, and entered the house with the remark; 'The spirit of my recently departed mother just saved my life!' Say, 'What!'

(Yeah, I know; but you need to understand; ‘The shoemaker’s children always go barefoot!)

Finally, she asked me to give her a gun and the training to go along with it. (Something she'd steadfastly resisted for a very long time!) When she didn’t like anything she handled in the gun safe; I took her to the local sport shop and steered her into a nice Ruger SP-101. To my absolute surprise, she has been practicing diligently and never leaves home without her, 'Ruggie' and two speedloaders!

Ain’t, ‘paranoia’ a wonderful thing!
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Old August 17, 2007, 05:55 PM   #75
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I'm with you on this one, Derius_T.

All of you who claim to not "live the paranoid life", I must ask: why is what I have always considered my being prudent all of a sudden considered paranoia? Why is the desire to make oneself a hard target enough to make one the object ridicule? So far, my so-called 'paranoia' hasnt made me an unhappy person!
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