Black Powder loads for .45 LC

Corkscrew Tom · July 29, 2006, 10:55 AM

I'm looking for info on Blackpowder Loads in .45 LC to shoot in my Taurus Gauchos and Rossi Model '92. Also are there any inherent problems to watch out for in shooting BP in these guns? I've shot BP before in muzzle loaders and cap and ball but not lever guns or newer revolvers. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Corkscrew Tom

timothy75 · July 29, 2006, 08:10 PM

Just make sure you put enough powder in them between 32-38grs should be fine. use a heavy soft bullet and tight crimp. Good luck

Hafoc · July 29, 2006, 10:52 PM

I've read a couple books on black powder cartridge reloading. While they go into great detail on the rifle rounds, they didn't have any specific info on revolver cartridges. Which was irritating, since that was what I wanted.

Still, you might want to read up on rifle cartridge reloading just to get an idea of some of the special techniques and problems.

Such as-- don't use smokeless powder tools; they can build up static, make a spark, and set off black powder. You don't want any airspace inside the black powder cartridge; it should be filled up, with slight compression when you seat the bullet. If you use true black powder or some of the substitutes, you're going to need a proper black powder lubricant in the bullet's grease grooves. Other substitutes, you use smokeless powder lubricants. It depends on the powder.

That's just stuff I've picked up doing web searches. I suggest you do the same, as a good place to start.

Eghad · July 30, 2006, 10:00 AM

I am not a black powder shooter, but one complaint Ive noticed on the 45LC is that when fired it does not expand as well as the .44-40 letting some gunk get into the action on rifles. This is usually solved with a good crimp, but some folks still seem to have this problem with the 45LC. So if you want to use BP would the .44.-40 be a better cartridge to use? I have decided to shoot Classic Cowboy and use 45LC for the rifle and the pistol to cut down on confusion.

Old Dragoon · July 30, 2006, 05:13 PM

I shoot 44 Rem. C.F. with a 248 Grn X.451 dia. bullet it is loaded with 28 Grns FFG or FFFG and is very accurate. I can load it with 30 grns to approximate a 45LC but find the accuracy is not as good.
If you shoot 250 grn bullets in your 45LC. try 28 or 29 Grns of either FFG or FFFG and I think you will find that it is accurate. Or at least start there to be able to compress the BP when seating the bullet. My 44 Rem. C.F. uses 44 Colt brass which is smaller dia. than the 45 LC, though the finished cartridge is the same overall length. HAFOC is right you do not want any air space between the BP and the bullet base when seated. I would crimp them also. as I do mine.

I also use Trail Boss Smokeless for Home defense and shooting my Cartridge Conversions indoors. They boom with 4.75 Grns T.B. and really BOOM with 5 Grns. T.B. and are very accurate.

I need to shoot both outdoors at night to see the difference in FLAMES and BOOM.

Will try to get someone to photograph my night time antics.

Corkscrew Tom · July 31, 2006, 04:11 PM

Thanks much, I appreciate all the info. I'll do some research on the net and go from there.

Hafoc · August 1, 2006, 10:33 AM

Eghad,

Recently I've read some posts to the effect that the .45 Colt's problem with blow-by and weak brass have more to do with oversized chambers than with any problem in the case design itself. And this does make sense. Some of the .45 Colt brass out there is as thick as anything going. Also, the .45 is a simple, straight-sided case. If that design was prone to gunk blowing back along the sides, it should happen with other cartridges such as .44 Mag, .357, and so on.

It's hard to pin down exact specs for the .45 Colt. That's part of the problem. For example, there's bore diameter. Original was .454, but for decades now makers (perhaps all makers) have been using .452, to match what the .45 Auto uses.

Then there are case rims. As I understand it, the rim on the .45 Colt is more pronounced than on original versions. On the other hand, for a little while around 1910 or so, the US Army used a wide-rimmed version in a double-action revolver; supposedly the rim was wide enough that you couldn't load six in a Single Action Army, only three, leaving every second chamber empty. It was probably just as well that the 1909 Army cartridge's design discouraged people from using it in SAAs; it was smokeless, and loaded rather hot.

The Colt's been around since before standards were that much of a big deal. So it has trouble meeting them.

I would think the .44-40 would be the better cartridge for black powder loads or CAS, yes. I would think so, although the .44-40 does have some problems of its own. Unfortunately, .44-40 ammo is "rare" and expensive, at least compared to .45 Colt.

Old Dragoon · August 1, 2006, 03:07 PM

And the 44-40 has that darned necked case too.

I'll stick with my 44 Rem. C.F. that's as close to a 45LC as I want to get.

If you don't reload go with the 45LC. if you do reload it doesn't take much to set up another caliber to reload.

Course the 44 Rem C.F. needs a Kirst Conversion cylinder and I think they just make them for the '58 Remingtons by Pietta. Uberti, and Euroarms/ASP's (uses Uberti Kirst's, Armi San Marco uses Uberti Kirsts also I think.) Though I'm sure Walt Kirst would make you a conversion cylinder for any 44 Cal BP pistol.

mete · August 1, 2006, 03:52 PM

The original loading was - 255 gr lead, 40 gr FFg, to give about 910 fps.and 34 gr FFg for 825 fps .Yes it would be .454" dia and I assume a balloon head case .Those loads are from "Pistol and Revolver Shooting " by Himmelwright 1928

Smokin_Gun · August 1, 2006, 04:54 PM

I know that when I fired some 255gr round nose flat tip with 35gr fffg Goex behind them in my .45LC Colt Dragoon they were pretty stout. Very accurate but even in a 4lb Dragoon you knew it when they went off.
They did put a smile on my face, but I'd probly use ffg BP next time.

Old Dragoon · August 2, 2006, 02:08 PM

Colt backed off the original loading very quickly as the ordinance officers that were testing the loads thought they were way too hot. So they went to a 250 Grn bullet and less powder as issued.

Eghad · August 2, 2006, 04:00 PM

I have a Colt 1909 Army Service Revolver in .45. I just use the Cowboy loads for the 45 LC in it. The extractor usually fails to get a case every so often. In the 1909 Revolver the 45 LC shells work just fine. I suppose I could get a gunsmith to fix that but I dont use it very often nor for self defense.

July 29, 2006, 10:55 AM	#1
Corkscrew Tom Junior Member Join Date: May 30, 2006 Posts: 3	Black Powder loads for .45 LC I'm looking for info on Blackpowder Loads in .45 LC to shoot in my Taurus Gauchos and Rossi Model '92. Also are there any inherent problems to watch out for in shooting BP in these guns? I've shot BP before in muzzle loaders and cap and ball but not lever guns or newer revolvers. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Corkscrew Tom

July 30, 2006, 10:00 AM	#4
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	I am not a black powder shooter, but one complaint Ive noticed on the 45LC is that when fired it does not expand as well as the .44-40 letting some gunk get into the action on rifles. This is usually solved with a good crimp, but some folks still seem to have this problem with the 45LC. So if you want to use BP would the .44.-40 be a better cartridge to use? I have decided to shoot Classic Cowboy and use 45LC for the rifle and the pistol to cut down on confusion. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

August 1, 2006, 04:54 PM	#10
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	I know that when I fired some 255gr round nose flat tip with 35gr fffg Goex behind them in my .45LC Colt Dragoon they were pretty stout. Very accurate but even in a 4lb Dragoon you knew it when they went off. They did put a smile on my face, but I'd probly use ffg BP next time. __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

August 2, 2006, 04:00 PM	#12
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	I have a Colt 1909 Army Service Revolver in .45. I just use the Cowboy loads for the 45 LC in it. The extractor usually fails to get a case every so often. In the 1909 Revolver the 45 LC shells work just fine. I suppose I could get a gunsmith to fix that but I dont use it very often nor for self defense. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

July 29, 2006, 08:10 PM	#2
timothy75 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,146	Just make sure you put enough powder in them between 32-38grs should be fine. use a heavy soft bullet and tight crimp. Good luck

July 29, 2006, 10:52 PM	#3
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	I've read a couple books on black powder cartridge reloading. While they go into great detail on the rifle rounds, they didn't have any specific info on revolver cartridges. Which was irritating, since that was what I wanted. Still, you might want to read up on rifle cartridge reloading just to get an idea of some of the special techniques and problems. Such as-- don't use smokeless powder tools; they can build up static, make a spark, and set off black powder. You don't want any airspace inside the black powder cartridge; it should be filled up, with slight compression when you seat the bullet. If you use true black powder or some of the substitutes, you're going to need a proper black powder lubricant in the bullet's grease grooves. Other substitutes, you use smokeless powder lubricants. It depends on the powder. That's just stuff I've picked up doing web searches. I suggest you do the same, as a good place to start.

July 30, 2006, 05:13 PM	#5
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	I shoot 44 Rem. C.F. with a 248 Grn X.451 dia. bullet it is loaded with 28 Grns FFG or FFFG and is very accurate. I can load it with 30 grns to approximate a 45LC but find the accuracy is not as good. If you shoot 250 grn bullets in your 45LC. try 28 or 29 Grns of either FFG or FFFG and I think you will find that it is accurate. Or at least start there to be able to compress the BP when seating the bullet. My 44 Rem. C.F. uses 44 Colt brass which is smaller dia. than the 45 LC, though the finished cartridge is the same overall length. HAFOC is right you do not want any air space between the BP and the bullet base when seated. I would crimp them also. as I do mine. I also use Trail Boss Smokeless for Home defense and shooting my Cartridge Conversions indoors. They boom with 4.75 Grns T.B. and really BOOM with 5 Grns. T.B. and are very accurate. I need to shoot both outdoors at night to see the difference in FLAMES and BOOM. Will try to get someone to photograph my night time antics.

July 31, 2006, 04:11 PM	#6
Corkscrew Tom Junior Member Join Date: May 30, 2006 Posts: 3	Thanks much, I appreciate all the info. I'll do some research on the net and go from there.

August 1, 2006, 10:33 AM	#7
Hafoc Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Posts: 552	Eghad, Recently I've read some posts to the effect that the .45 Colt's problem with blow-by and weak brass have more to do with oversized chambers than with any problem in the case design itself. And this does make sense. Some of the .45 Colt brass out there is as thick as anything going. Also, the .45 is a simple, straight-sided case. If that design was prone to gunk blowing back along the sides, it should happen with other cartridges such as .44 Mag, .357, and so on. It's hard to pin down exact specs for the .45 Colt. That's part of the problem. For example, there's bore diameter. Original was .454, but for decades now makers (perhaps all makers) have been using .452, to match what the .45 Auto uses. Then there are case rims. As I understand it, the rim on the .45 Colt is more pronounced than on original versions. On the other hand, for a little while around 1910 or so, the US Army used a wide-rimmed version in a double-action revolver; supposedly the rim was wide enough that you couldn't load six in a Single Action Army, only three, leaving every second chamber empty. It was probably just as well that the 1909 Army cartridge's design discouraged people from using it in SAAs; it was smokeless, and loaded rather hot. The Colt's been around since before standards were that much of a big deal. So it has trouble meeting them. I would think the .44-40 would be the better cartridge for black powder loads or CAS, yes. I would think so, although the .44-40 does have some problems of its own. Unfortunately, .44-40 ammo is "rare" and expensive, at least compared to .45 Colt.

August 1, 2006, 03:07 PM	#8
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	And the 44-40 has that darned necked case too. I'll stick with my 44 Rem. C.F. that's as close to a 45LC as I want to get. If you don't reload go with the 45LC. if you do reload it doesn't take much to set up another caliber to reload. Course the 44 Rem C.F. needs a Kirst Conversion cylinder and I think they just make them for the '58 Remingtons by Pietta. Uberti, and Euroarms/ASP's (uses Uberti Kirst's, Armi San Marco uses Uberti Kirsts also I think.) Though I'm sure Walt Kirst would make you a conversion cylinder for any 44 Cal BP pistol.

August 1, 2006, 03:52 PM	#9
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	The original loading was - 255 gr lead, 40 gr FFg, to give about 910 fps.and 34 gr FFg for 825 fps .Yes it would be .454" dia and I assume a balloon head case .Those loads are from "Pistol and Revolver Shooting " by Himmelwright 1928

August 2, 2006, 02:08 PM	#11
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	Colt backed off the original loading very quickly as the ordinance officers that were testing the loads thought they were way too hot. So they went to a 250 Grn bullet and less powder as issued.