The Cane - Page 2

Lance Gothic · October 25, 2000, 12:26 AM

The Dec. 2000 issue of Black Belt Magazine has an article,(Pg. 82-86), regarding cane use. It highlights the site - www.canemasters.com.
My apologies if I missed it but you didn't mention the scene in BILLY JACK using the cane defense. We must remember that these items are tools of our craft. And we must master their use lest we become like the bad carpenters whom blame their tools.
Royal regards to one and all.

Erich · October 25, 2000, 12:08 PM

I found out last month that the recurrance of a hip injury from a car accident 18 years ago is going to require me to schlep a cane around again (at least until the hip gets bad enough to require replacement - lucky me). Other than my new ability to pre-board aircraft ("Cripple coming through!"), this thread is the first good thing I've seen to come out of the new injury.

Thanks so much for the info!

C.R.Sam · October 25, 2000, 06:49 PM

I started playin with sticks n blades in the 40s, never let go. Uncle Sam paid for some deadly schoolin with them later. I USE a cane nowadays but used one for years.

Have learned to use a sacrificial cane when doin handgun drills or IDPA stuff. All kinds of bad things can happen to your cane when drawin on a pop up target.

For any level of dress, a cane is quite appropriate. It can be first strike lethal and fits in at federal buildings.

Sam...I used vertical mount on bikes, just like baton holder.

LASur5r · October 25, 2000, 07:38 PM

Rich,
When growing up in Hawaii, my grandpa took me to River Street when I was little..he'd visit all his old Chinatown cronies and introduced me to a side of Chinese life that I had not known. The bad thing was River Street was also the hangout for the pool hustlers, the street thugs, prostitutes, and the guys that came looking for things that you couldn't get on the "good" side.
One of my uncles told me of an incident that he had seen where my grandpa was waiting for the bus with his cane in hand. Three sailors thought they'd make fun of the ol'Chinaman. He ignored them until one of them tried to take his cane away from him. The ambulance had to take two of them away and the rest didn't remember too much except that old man kept "using that cane."
Some of you may remember that in a previous thread, I had mentioned that my grandfather had come to Hawaii with Sun-Yat Sen. My grandfather was one of the bodyguards for President Sun Yat Sen, one of the leaders who tried to introduce democracy to China before the communist takeover.
Anyway, my understanding is that in order to be a bodyguard, you had to beat all comers in combat....armed or unarmed, and the one left standing becomes one of the bodyguards.
Even at 77 years old and 80 pounds soaking wet, my grandfather easily beat my brother who had taken 8 years of martial arts.
So, yes, in the right hands a cane can be a very effective weapon. I am 52 and a cane sounds like a good tool to help me walk.

ctdonath · October 25, 2000, 07:52 PM

My Kali instructor teaches cane techniques occasionally (I'm lucky enough to be his primary demo target). Downright scary what can be done with it.

I bought one at the local drugstore for $10 (tax exempt!), cheap enough to break or lose with no concern (unlike combat canes for over $100). There's no reason to think it's for any reason other than a cane. The CaneMasters cane, while excellently made for combat (thick oak, larger hook, grips, etc.), looks a little suspicious, and has the "CaneMasters" yin-yang logo - the wrong people may wonder at the wrong times.

Even as an apparently healthy 30something with no visible reason to carry it, I've carried it through airport security checks with the greatest of ease.

The only downside for a defensive cane is that people you know take sudden interest in your presumed pains and disabilities - you ARE walking with a cane! Last person who asked (ran into my boss at the airport) got "I'm eccentric" with a "don't ask" look.

I'm considering getting a swagger stick to carry instead - lacks the advantage of the hook, but looks more stylish instead of blaring "handicapped!"

Danger Dave · October 28, 2000, 10:40 PM

A cane, I believe, is one of the last completely practical weapons you can learn. You can carry it anywhere - to the mall, through the airport, into other countries - without attracting attention. Most of us - due to injuries or debilitation (like arthritis) will eventually need something to help us remain mobile at some point in our lives. Why not learn how to use it?

BTW, the guy who did the stunts in Billy Jack was Bong Soo Han, a Hapkido master. He was also in Kentucky Fried Movie.

Jody Hudson · October 29, 2000, 12:23 AM

As I have had severe back and pelvic problems for years I decided to get a good blackthorn cane (now several) and some lessons.
http://www.irishproducts.com/blackthorn.htm http://www.irishusa.com/clubs/ http://www.classiccanes.co.uk/ http://www.irishtartans.com/sticks.html
and it's hard to beat Cold Steel's Special Products where several sticks are featured. http://www.ltspecpro.com/index.html
My favorite is thier Blackthorn: http://www.ltspecpro.com/91bts.html

Be well,
Jody

------------------
Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.

guerilla1138 · October 29, 2000, 09:55 PM

i own a custom made, straigh cane made from ash wood. its very thick, almost an inch and a half, and it has a copper tip on the bottom and a leather wrapped grip, that is so wrapped to use it as a baton.
its one tough mother
i use it as a cane because of some knee problems i have, but it has come in really handy once, a friend and i were out on halloween taking the friend little brother trick or treating and 5 guys came up and started beating on my friend, i ran over there and two of them took off when they saw the cane, which i held as a baton, and the other three decided they could take me.
none of them armed, one came at my from the side in a head down football type rush and i used the large, round object on top of his body as a target. he took off once he stood up.
then the other two came at me togather one of them getting it in the stomach tip first and then across the shoulders and to the back of the knees.
then my friend stepped is and the last guy took a swing at him. the cane made contact with the guys arm and it made a very sickening noise when the bone broke a came thru his skin. nice compound fracture if i do say so myself.
and then he took off.
i wanst ever touched but my friend lwas black and blue for a couple days.

canes are great weapons. i love mine.
i think everyone should have one. or two.

Nevada Fitch · October 29, 2000, 10:14 PM

Well, I hope the anti's and the Democrates don't get wind of this. They will all want us to get some kind of identification card to carry one of these.

EnochGale · October 29, 2000, 10:26 PM

Sorry to be a wet blanket on the canefest.
In Tx, there is an anticlub law. Driving around with a shorty baseball bat can get you in trouble.

If you do use the cane in a questionable situation, it will come up that you have no physical disability and have significant training in the martial arts with such weapons.

Thus, it is clear you carried it as a weapon and you might be in difficulty.

Similarly if you are challenged by the police and they look into your cane, you might be in trouble. Whether other states do this, I don't know.

Thus, it sounds cool but check with local folks in the know.

Art Eatman · October 30, 2000, 02:46 AM

Enoch, how's anybody gonna know you've had training--unless you tell them?

If you have a standard medical-type cane, I really doubt anybody will automatically equate it to a weapon--if your demeanor or behavior is not hostile.

Jerry Robinette, of Austin, taught unarmed self-defense and stick fighting. One of his clients was a lady who had arthritis. The severity was a "come and go" sort; sometimes a wheelchair, sometimes not. By the time he had passed on some knowledge to her, woe be unto the Gomer who gave her a hard time! But sometimes she could walk fairly normally--and who's to know?

In the car, carry a cane and one of those black elastic "support" belts. If anybody ever questions, the story is that nerve-pinches occasionally happen...For me, it's true.

, Art

Danger Dave · October 30, 2000, 08:28 AM

I'm not worried about it being considered a weapon - I have a mild case of arthritis, so it's a walking cane, too. It's not a weapon until I try to strike someone with it, and if I need to do that, I'm in fear for my life.

I'd rather face a trial-by-jury than trust the mercy of a gang of thugs.

But that's me. Make your own decisions.

FPrice · October 30, 2000, 08:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rich Lucibella:
paw-

I seem to recall that one of the Billy Jack movies also featured a Korean practitioner (Joo Bang Lee? He Il Cho?), with some great cane fighting sequences.
Rich

[/quote]

Rich,

I think it was "The Trial of Billy Jack" and the Korean Master may have been Bong Soo Han (sp?). Anyways, it was a long time ago but I clearly remember the cane sequences, they were good.

Black Belt Magazine had a good article on cane techniques in the July 2000 issue.

I have a knee problem which has curtailed my jujitsu studies so I am looking at Canemasters very closely, for many of the reason already covered by others.

Frosty
Molon Labe

FPrice · October 30, 2000, 08:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danger Dave:

BTW, the guy who did the stunts in Billy Jack was Bong Soo Han, a Hapkido master. He was also in Kentucky Fried Movie.[/quote]

Dave,

Did not see your message before I posted my reply to Rich. But I am glad to see that my memory was better than I thought!

Frosty

EnochGale · October 31, 2000, 03:02 PM

Art, my point was that if you arrested and the use of your cane as a weapon was questionable, your lack of disability and martial arts training could be used against you by a zealous prosecutor.

Art Eatman · October 31, 2000, 07:43 PM

Enoch, I follow your point and agree about what a zealous prosecutor *could* do. Again, who's to know of your training, unless you're quite public about it? And, "occasional" need is legit. Again, I'm coming from the "good guy" direction; I assume you or I would not offer gratuitous violence.

That's the problem with an international forum like this one, of course. There are so many different jurisdictions, with so many different laws, not to mention attitudes on the part of enforcement personnel. Heck, compare Texas' cities with its rural areas!

Regards, Art

Driedel · November 1, 2000, 02:19 PM

In Regards to EnochGale's caution, he is quite correct. I am a provisional instructor in Kali and after my instructor saw the CaneMaster's cane the first thing he said was that it "could be used against me" because it was specifically designed as a martial arts weapon, especially the pointed crook. A normal cane has no such thing so no problem. I have a solution to this in that a student of mine carved a very nice dragon as part of the crook, with a pointed snout at the end, making it "purely ornamental". The Canemaster's canes are nice, but very heavy and hence slower if you are used to practicing a stick art like kali. It seems to me they were meant for more brute force in blocking and retaliation. (the lighter cane is my personal preference) All in all, I would still rather take a chance on a jury after I survived an encounter rather than have no weapon at all in this day and age. In the end, it is ultimately up to how the political climate is at the time of the incident. Remember, in the eyes of the public and thanks to movies, martial artists can dodge bullets and can take on armies of thugs without being the worse for wear. Using a weapon against people with your knowledge just isn't fair!

October 25, 2000, 12:26 AM	#26
Lance Gothic Member Join Date: October 19, 2000 Posts: 86	The Dec. 2000 issue of Black Belt Magazine has an article,(Pg. 82-86), regarding cane use. It highlights the site - www.canemasters.com. My apologies if I missed it but you didn't mention the scene in BILLY JACK using the cane defense. We must remember that these items are tools of our craft. And we must master their use lest we become like the bad carpenters whom blame their tools. Royal regards to one and all.

October 25, 2000, 12:08 PM	#27
Erich Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA Posts: 2,543	I found out last month that the recurrance of a hip injury from a car accident 18 years ago is going to require me to schlep a cane around again (at least until the hip gets bad enough to require replacement - lucky me). Other than my new ability to pre-board aircraft ("Cripple coming through!"), this thread is the first good thing I've seen to come out of the new injury. Thanks so much for the info!

October 25, 2000, 06:49 PM	#28
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	I started playin with sticks n blades in the 40s, never let go. Uncle Sam paid for some deadly schoolin with them later. I USE a cane nowadays but used one for years. Have learned to use a sacrificial cane when doin handgun drills or IDPA stuff. All kinds of bad things can happen to your cane when drawin on a pop up target. For any level of dress, a cane is quite appropriate. It can be first strike lethal and fits in at federal buildings. Sam...I used vertical mount on bikes, just like baton holder.

October 25, 2000, 07:38 PM	#29
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Rich, When growing up in Hawaii, my grandpa took me to River Street when I was little..he'd visit all his old Chinatown cronies and introduced me to a side of Chinese life that I had not known. The bad thing was River Street was also the hangout for the pool hustlers, the street thugs, prostitutes, and the guys that came looking for things that you couldn't get on the "good" side. One of my uncles told me of an incident that he had seen where my grandpa was waiting for the bus with his cane in hand. Three sailors thought they'd make fun of the ol'Chinaman. He ignored them until one of them tried to take his cane away from him. The ambulance had to take two of them away and the rest didn't remember too much except that old man kept "using that cane." Some of you may remember that in a previous thread, I had mentioned that my grandfather had come to Hawaii with Sun-Yat Sen. My grandfather was one of the bodyguards for President Sun Yat Sen, one of the leaders who tried to introduce democracy to China before the communist takeover. Anyway, my understanding is that in order to be a bodyguard, you had to beat all comers in combat....armed or unarmed, and the one left standing becomes one of the bodyguards. Even at 77 years old and 80 pounds soaking wet, my grandfather easily beat my brother who had taken 8 years of martial arts. So, yes, in the right hands a cane can be a very effective weapon. I am 52 and a cane sounds like a good tool to help me walk.

October 25, 2000, 07:52 PM	#30
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	My Kali instructor teaches cane techniques occasionally (I'm lucky enough to be his primary demo target). Downright scary what can be done with it. I bought one at the local drugstore for $10 (tax exempt!), cheap enough to break or lose with no concern (unlike combat canes for over $100). There's no reason to think it's for any reason other than a cane. The CaneMasters cane, while excellently made for combat (thick oak, larger hook, grips, etc.), looks a little suspicious, and has the "CaneMasters" yin-yang logo - the wrong people may wonder at the wrong times. Even as an apparently healthy 30something with no visible reason to carry it, I've carried it through airport security checks with the greatest of ease. The only downside for a defensive cane is that people you know take sudden interest in your presumed pains and disabilities - you ARE walking with a cane! Last person who asked (ran into my boss at the airport) got "I'm eccentric" with a "don't ask" look. I'm considering getting a swagger stick to carry instead - lacks the advantage of the hook, but looks more stylish instead of blaring "handicapped!"

October 28, 2000, 10:40 PM	#31
Danger Dave Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 1999 Location: Dallas, GA, USA Posts: 791	A cane, I believe, is one of the last completely practical weapons you can learn. You can carry it anywhere - to the mall, through the airport, into other countries - without attracting attention. Most of us - due to injuries or debilitation (like arthritis) will eventually need something to help us remain mobile at some point in our lives. Why not learn how to use it? BTW, the guy who did the stunts in Billy Jack was Bong Soo Han, a Hapkido master. He was also in Kentucky Fried Movie.

October 29, 2000, 12:23 AM	#32
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	As I have had severe back and pelvic problems for years I decided to get a good blackthorn cane (now several) and some lessons. http://www.irishproducts.com/blackthorn.htm http://www.irishusa.com/clubs/ http://www.classiccanes.co.uk/ http://www.irishtartans.com/sticks.html and it's hard to beat Cold Steel's Special Products where several sticks are featured. http://www.ltspecpro.com/index.html My favorite is thier Blackthorn: http://www.ltspecpro.com/91bts.html Be well, Jody ------------------ Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.

October 29, 2000, 09:55 PM	#33
guerilla1138 Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2000 Posts: 294	i own a custom made, straigh cane made from ash wood. its very thick, almost an inch and a half, and it has a copper tip on the bottom and a leather wrapped grip, that is so wrapped to use it as a baton. its one tough mother i use it as a cane because of some knee problems i have, but it has come in really handy once, a friend and i were out on halloween taking the friend little brother trick or treating and 5 guys came up and started beating on my friend, i ran over there and two of them took off when they saw the cane, which i held as a baton, and the other three decided they could take me. none of them armed, one came at my from the side in a head down football type rush and i used the large, round object on top of his body as a target. he took off once he stood up. then the other two came at me togather one of them getting it in the stomach tip first and then across the shoulders and to the back of the knees. then my friend stepped is and the last guy took a swing at him. the cane made contact with the guys arm and it made a very sickening noise when the bone broke a came thru his skin. nice compound fracture if i do say so myself. and then he took off. i wanst ever touched but my friend lwas black and blue for a couple days. canes are great weapons. i love mine. i think everyone should have one. or two.

October 29, 2000, 10:14 PM	#34
Nevada Fitch Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 261	Well, I hope the anti's and the Democrates don't get wind of this. They will all want us to get some kind of identification card to carry one of these.

October 29, 2000, 10:26 PM	#35
EnochGale Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: southwest Posts: 823	Sorry to be a wet blanket on the canefest. In Tx, there is an anticlub law. Driving around with a shorty baseball bat can get you in trouble. If you do use the cane in a questionable situation, it will come up that you have no physical disability and have significant training in the martial arts with such weapons. Thus, it is clear you carried it as a weapon and you might be in difficulty. Similarly if you are challenged by the police and they look into your cane, you might be in trouble. Whether other states do this, I don't know. Thus, it sounds cool but check with local folks in the know.

October 30, 2000, 02:46 AM	#36
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Enoch, how's anybody gonna know you've had training--unless you tell them? If you have a standard medical-type cane, I really doubt anybody will automatically equate it to a weapon--if your demeanor or behavior is not hostile. Jerry Robinette, of Austin, taught unarmed self-defense and stick fighting. One of his clients was a lady who had arthritis. The severity was a "come and go" sort; sometimes a wheelchair, sometimes not. By the time he had passed on some knowledge to her, woe be unto the Gomer who gave her a hard time! But sometimes she could walk fairly normally--and who's to know? In the car, carry a cane and one of those black elastic "support" belts. If anybody ever questions, the story is that nerve-pinches occasionally happen...For me, it's true. , Art

October 30, 2000, 08:28 AM	#37
Danger Dave Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 1999 Location: Dallas, GA, USA Posts: 791	I'm not worried about it being considered a weapon - I have a mild case of arthritis, so it's a walking cane, too. It's not a weapon until I try to strike someone with it, and if I need to do that, I'm in fear for my life. I'd rather face a trial-by-jury than trust the mercy of a gang of thugs. But that's me. Make your own decisions.

October 30, 2000, 08:44 AM	#38
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rich Lucibella: paw- I seem to recall that one of the Billy Jack movies also featured a Korean practitioner (Joo Bang Lee? He Il Cho?), with some great cane fighting sequences. Rich [/quote] Rich, I think it was "The Trial of Billy Jack" and the Korean Master may have been Bong Soo Han (sp?). Anyways, it was a long time ago but I clearly remember the cane sequences, they were good. Black Belt Magazine had a good article on cane techniques in the July 2000 issue. I have a knee problem which has curtailed my jujitsu studies so I am looking at Canemasters very closely, for many of the reason already covered by others. Frosty Molon Labe

October 30, 2000, 08:48 AM	#39
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danger Dave: BTW, the guy who did the stunts in Billy Jack was Bong Soo Han, a Hapkido master. He was also in Kentucky Fried Movie.[/quote] Dave, Did not see your message before I posted my reply to Rich. But I am glad to see that my memory was better than I thought! Frosty

October 31, 2000, 03:02 PM	#40
EnochGale Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: southwest Posts: 823	Art, my point was that if you arrested and the use of your cane as a weapon was questionable, your lack of disability and martial arts training could be used against you by a zealous prosecutor.

October 31, 2000, 07:43 PM	#41
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Enoch, I follow your point and agree about what a zealous prosecutor could do. Again, who's to know of your training, unless you're quite public about it? And, "occasional" need is legit. Again, I'm coming from the "good guy" direction; I assume you or I would not offer gratuitous violence. That's the problem with an international forum like this one, of course. There are so many different jurisdictions, with so many different laws, not to mention attitudes on the part of enforcement personnel. Heck, compare Texas' cities with its rural areas! Regards, Art

November 1, 2000, 02:19 PM	#42
Driedel Junior Member Join Date: November 1, 2000 Posts: 1	In Regards to EnochGale's caution, he is quite correct. I am a provisional instructor in Kali and after my instructor saw the CaneMaster's cane the first thing he said was that it "could be used against me" because it was specifically designed as a martial arts weapon, especially the pointed crook. A normal cane has no such thing so no problem. I have a solution to this in that a student of mine carved a very nice dragon as part of the crook, with a pointed snout at the end, making it "purely ornamental". The Canemaster's canes are nice, but very heavy and hence slower if you are used to practicing a stick art like kali. It seems to me they were meant for more brute force in blocking and retaliation. (the lighter cane is my personal preference) All in all, I would still rather take a chance on a jury after I survived an encounter rather than have no weapon at all in this day and age. In the end, it is ultimately up to how the political climate is at the time of the incident. Remember, in the eyes of the public and thanks to movies, martial artists can dodge bullets and can take on armies of thugs without being the worse for wear. Using a weapon against people with your knowledge just isn't fair!