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Old February 9, 2012, 04:56 PM   #1
OwenW
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In need of serious help

Hello, Ive been reading through the posts here trying to find an answere to my problem. In doing so i found something of great concern to me.

My problem is this. When i use my lee 50th aniversary challenger press to seat and crimp the 9mm projectile into the shell, the finished rounds either spin in the mouth of the shell, or collapse into the shell. The die im using is the third die in the set that crimps and seats the bullet into the shell(so it says, im smart enough to know what i paid for the dies could be why im having a problem like this). This has driven me crazy. The depth is perfect, the cases are in good shape. Almost every round spins in the casing. I can't seem to figure out why.

Now, i tried turning the die in a half turn(per youtube instructions) to see what i would get. I got a good solid round that didnt spin, and didnt collapse. But it seemed to leave strange marks on the projectile. also the force required to use the press greatly went up, wich worried me. I had read on this forum about the thumb nail test. These rounds i made with the die turned in 1/2 turn DID NOT pass the thumb nail test. The case is now flush with the projectile or even in farther in some cases. I am now nervouse about firing them through my Gun(Ruger SR9 ). In your opinion are these safe?

I would love to post pictures i took some just to make this as understandable as possible but im unfamiliar with how to post them. The dies that i purchased are a 4 die set, lee deluxe pistol dies for 9mm.

I would like to sell some of this ammo, also i compete in local shooting events, i would love to be able to use my ammo and not spend the extra cash every time. I need to figure this out and fine tune my process.
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Old February 9, 2012, 05:24 PM   #2
hk33ka1
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I'm sure your dies are fine and it is either the set up of the Case Expander die or the crimping/seating setup that is giving you the issue. The photos would help, and I'm sure someone here can post them. I have not done this yet, but I believe they need to be hosted on a site like photobucket first and then you hotlink to them.

I would be concerned with the loose ones being set back in the case further, thus upping the pressure to an unsafe level or just falling out and jamming.

I don't know if selling reloads is such a hot idea and it may be regulated by the ATF.
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Old February 9, 2012, 05:35 PM   #3
m&p45acp10+1
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Ok it sounds like you have a bullet tension problem. Even with more flare the seating die should remove the flare after pushing the bullet in.

Ok first thing is to take a sized not flared piece of brass, and one of the bullets you are using. Try to push it in the case mouth. If it falls in your bullets are too small.

Ok take a sized and unflared case and run it up the ram. Now back off the bullet seating stem, and screw the seating die down until you feel it touch the case mouth. Lower the ram, and then screw the die down not quite a quarter turn. Next adjust the seating stem to the length you want the finished rounds to be.

Note selling reloads without a liscense is a federal offense. In order to sell you would have to have the proper FFL whatever it is to sell your reloads. Not only that at the stage you are at I would advise not to even begin thinkng about selling those rounds. You can also be sued. Every comercial reloader I have ever met carried insurance.
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Old February 9, 2012, 05:36 PM   #4
Japle
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Quote:
The die im using is the third die in the set that crimps and seats the bullet into the shell.
The third die is the seating die. It's not for crimping. The #4 die is the taper crimp die.

First, make sure you're only expanding the case (die #2) enough to get the bullet started without shaving bullet material. There should be some resistance when you seat the bullet. Not much, but some.

When you set the seating die, run a sized and expanded case in without a bullet. There should be no resistance. The seating die should not alter the case at all. Turn the die in until you feel it touch the case, then back it out 1/4 turn and lock it in place. Once you have that set, set your bullet seating punch for the overall length you want.

Then set the taper crimp die with a factory hardball round. There should be just a tiny amount of resistance with the factory round, but not much.
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Old February 9, 2012, 05:36 PM   #5
thedaddycat
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I can't answer your questions about the problems you are encountering with your reloading, but I'll try to get you up to speed on posting pics.

I use photobucket to post pics. You need to go to photobuckiet.com and register for an account. You can then upload your pics to photobucket. When you scroll over the pic a window will open that allows you to select how you want to use it. See below:


Click to add title

(a thumbnail of the pic is here)

0022.jpg
Share|Edit|Delete|Move
Email & IM
Direct link
HTML code
IMG code

When you scroll over the "IMG code" box and click on it, it will create a link for you that you then insert into your post by using Control V. When you preview your post, it will link to the pic and the pic will be displayed in your post.

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/...dycat/0022.jpg

This is what the code string looks like, but it will have the IMG tag with brackets before and the /IMG tag with brackets after the string. I removed them so you can see the string. The forum automatically adds url tags before and after the string. Since the url tags are added, it shows up here as a link. If you click on it now, it will open another window where you can see the pic.



This is that same string with the IMG tags left in place.

This is how this string appears when the IMG tags are left in place and inserted into your post.

I hope this helps.
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Old February 9, 2012, 05:47 PM   #6
Cornbread
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Here is a link that makes posting pictures easy it has easy to follow step by step instructions and pictures. Hope it helps.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=364702
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Old February 9, 2012, 06:04 PM   #7
OwenW
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[/IMG]





Thanks for the help with the pictures.

You can see in the picture of the rounds what i mean by the shell is even with the projectile(right) and i don't think thats safe to shoot. The round on the left is one that the projectile spins in the shell, but does not collapse. Those are also the dies i have been using.
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Old February 9, 2012, 06:05 PM   #8
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Old February 9, 2012, 06:40 PM   #9
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Looks like your Factory crip die is too tight JMO ; ) PS What kind of powder you using & is it near max?
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Old February 9, 2012, 08:19 PM   #10
Japle
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The round on the left looks good. The one on the right is too tight.

Bullet tension is determined by friction of the case walls, not the crimp. If the bullet can be spun with your fingers, you're over-expanding the case.
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Old February 9, 2012, 11:06 PM   #11
frumious
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Owen,

Are you actually sizing the brass, as in with the decapping/resizing die? I ask because I was setting up for .38spc one time and I was setting the seating die using a piece of brass that had not been resized. I was worried at the fact that the bullet would drop on into the case! Then I realized that the difference between a resized case and a not-resized case is quite a lot.

If you are setting up your seating die and using a case that has not been through die 1, try running it through die 1. This is the same thing Japle said above...I am just focusing on the "make sure to use die 1 before die 3" part.

If a projectile rotates freely after being seated in a sized piece of brass then the projectile is a few thousandths too small I would say. I can't imagine how you could over-expand brass enough with die 2 in order for a bullet to spin freely, unless the bullet wasn't seated very deep. Like, almost not seated at all.

-cls

Last edited by frumious; February 9, 2012 at 11:12 PM.
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Old February 9, 2012, 11:33 PM   #12
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Owen,

I think the above posts are puting you on track.

I will say that 9mm cases have about the widest variation of wall thickness than about any other case for pistols. I think that stems from production in just about every country that ever addopted a pistol in that calibre.

A thin case will be hard to size enough and may cause that loose bullet phenomenon that you describe.

After a case is sized, take it from the die and try to seat a bullet with your fingers. If it goes in, get rid of the case. If it won't go in, then the next step, as described above is to expand and to bell the case slightly. Once expanded and belled a bullet should be able to sit in the bell, but not be pushed into the case with your fingers. The 9mm is a tapered case, so there can be some dificulties here. My Dillon dies oversize the 9mm case to compensate. At any rate, after expanding, the inside diameter should be about .352 to .353 or so. This will give plenty of friction to your .355 jacketed bullets for the 9mm.

Seat the bullet and then lightly crimp. Just barely roll the bell back onto the bullet. The 9mm headspaces on the lip of the case and thus that lip should not be turned into the ojive or the bullet itself. A taper crimp die is best and I would recomend getting one.

Also, varying lenths of case length (read range pick up) can give you different crimp pressures on the bullet. This can lead to inconsistant pressure build up and thus reduced or increased pressure and the consiquential decrease in accuracy. Varying lengths can also cause different depths of headspace that can cause varying levels of primer ignition and thus dito for the above. While these last two provisos are usually not noticed, match shooters take them under advisement.

The above posts and these steps should give you a nice tight bullet in the case.

It is VERY IMPORTANT with semi auto cases to have a tight grip on the bullet. If the bullet gets pushed down into the case upon feeding into the chamber, high pressure spikes can result. That's not good and as the 9mm Parabellum operates at pretty high pressure already, it's not something you want.

Another problem might be that your TMJ bullets may not be a full .355 calibre. You'll need a set of calipers to know for sure. It is very uncommon for quality control to let an undersized bullet out of the factory, but hey, it probably happens.
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Last edited by Scharfschuetzer; February 9, 2012 at 11:57 PM.
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Old February 10, 2012, 10:34 PM   #13
Lost Sheep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frumious
Are you actually sizing the brass, as in with the decapping/resizing die? I ask because I was setting up for .38spc one time and I was setting the seating die using a piece of brass that had not been resized. I was worried at the fact that the bullet would drop on into the case! Then I realized that the difference between a resized case and a not-resized case is quite a lot.

If you are setting up your seating die and using a case that has not been through die 1, try running it through die 1. This is the same thing Japle said above...I am just focusing on the "make sure to use die 1 before die 3" part.

If a projectile rotates freely after being seated in a sized piece of brass then the projectile is a few thousandths too small I would say. , unless the bullet wasn't seated very deep. Like, almost not seated at all.

-cls
frumious,

Your post reminded me of an instance where a die set was shipped with some parts from a different die set. If this 9mm die set has a case-mouth expander from a .357/38, that might contribute to the problem. Your comment, "I can't imagine how you could over-expand brass enough with die 2 in order for a bullet to spin freely" triggered my memory. Can you imagine it now?

Lost Sheep
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Old February 11, 2012, 01:17 AM   #14
frumious
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Lost sheep, I still don't see it. Even if the expander die has the wrong plug and bells the case to the point of splitting the neck, well, that only affects the top 1/16 inch of the case or so. A bullet should be seated a lot deeper than that, and by the time it gets past the belled portion of the case neck it should be held pretty firmly by the rest of the case neck. That is, if the case has been resized. And you can get the over-belled case into the seating die at all.

I don't mean to argue, and if your experience indicates different then I respect that. Just sounds to me like he hasn't sized the case, not like he has an equipment problem.

-cls
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Old February 11, 2012, 07:04 PM   #15
OwenW
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Thank you guys. When i read that what holds the bullet in place was case tension and not the crimp. I started walking through my process and using the demensions that i was given. Turns out, i was never sizing the brass completly. I would run the brass up until it droped the primer and felt a little bit of tension. I feared i was damaging something. After saying screw it what else could it be, i pressed all the way through the resistance until it stopped. Measured it, primed it, powder, and pressed a bullet into it. Perfect. Got 50 of them in the tumbler now. I Really appriciate the help, Around here most people know reloading as putting more rounds in the mag. I had no one to ask with any expierience.

Im using 4.8 grains or WIN 231, with a 124 grain FMJ projectiles. I believe someone was wondering.

As for shooting the "dirty dozen" as i call the 12 rounds i over crimped. My buddy took them, against my advice and says he has no problem using them. I personaly didn't want to chance it.

thanks again
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Old February 11, 2012, 07:46 PM   #16
hk33ka1
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You can pull apart the 12 that were messed up and possibly re use the parts. I wouldn't let him shoot them either if there is a problem he won't be so happy about it.

Why are the 50 good ones in the tumbler?
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Old February 11, 2012, 07:56 PM   #17
OwenW
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The projectiles are ruined, and im not sure if the cases were saveable, they were really squished. I put the good ones in the tumbler to shine them up. Is that a bad thing?
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Old February 11, 2012, 08:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
I put the good ones in the tumbler to shine them up. Is that a bad thing?
I have read somewher that it was, but have read here that some folks had tested it out (tumbled bullets overnight) and noted no differences in performance or even the powder when looked at under a microscope.

Me, I won't do it, as none of my manuals list this as a step. By the book for me.
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Old February 11, 2012, 08:15 PM   #19
hk33ka1
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Tumbling live rounds is generally not recommended and is a touchy subject for some.

That said I do it on occasion, not for too long to clean old ammo or remove lube etc. I usually have lube off cases before I load so I don't do this much.

It's better to tumble your brass after you fire it and before you load anyways.
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Old February 12, 2012, 02:31 PM   #20
m&p45acp10+1
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A lot of the guys that load rifle rounds on a progressive tumble the finished rounds to remove the case lube.

For hand gun rounds I tumble my cast lead for a few minutes to remove the liquid allox lube to keep it from gumming up on the feed ramp of my auto loaders. Though I never had a problem from it. I used to just wipe the ramp every few magaines. For revolver rounds I do not worry about it they shoot the same.
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Old February 12, 2012, 04:18 PM   #21
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the tumbling

After saying screw it what else could it be, i pressed all the way through the resistance until it stopped. Measured it, primed it, powder, and pressed a bullet into it. Perfect. Got 50 of them in the tumbler now.

I imagine you are now tumbling 50 empty cases in prep for reloading them?
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Old February 12, 2012, 04:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frumious
Lost sheep, I still don't see it. Even if the expander die has the wrong plug and bells the case to the point of splitting the neck, well, that only affects the top 1/16 inch of the case or so. A bullet should be seated a lot deeper than that, and by the time it gets past the belled portion of the case neck it should be held pretty firmly by the rest of the case neck. That is, if the case has been resized. And you can get the over-belled case into the seating die at all.

I don't mean to argue, and if your experience indicates different then I respect that. Just sounds to me like he hasn't sized the case, not like he has an equipment problem.
-cls
Opposing debate is often the quickest way to get to the truth of a matter. No argument, just debate.

My belling dies (for straight-walled cartridge cases) have a mandrel in them whose main diameter is just about equal to the diameter of the bullet. Then they have a shoulder that bumps the diameter up a few thousands of an inch to bell the case mouth. If the main part of the mandrel is larger than the bullet the bullet/case fit will be loose. Then, when a light crimp is applied, the bullet may be gripped by the case mouth, but not by friction with the cartridge case on the sides of the bullet.

In effect, then an oversized belling tool would undo the sizing the first die performed (to a depth of about a half-inch).

I wish I could do pictures. It would make my explanation clearer.

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Old February 12, 2012, 04:32 PM   #23
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Ive heard both sides of the tumbling debate enough times to have it memorized, in the end, people can and will find justification for anything on both sides....

As with everything else in re-loading, "Better safe than sorry", IMO...

I think of it this way, although there has never been a plane crash reported due to someone playing a gameboy during takeoff, I still turn off all my electronic devices when they tell me too on an airplane.

What could I gain by tumbling live rounds? Nothing, because I clean the lube off my cased before they are loaded, and if not I can still wipe it off afterward. I guess I could be lazy and tumble it off, but why? All that does is add crap to my tumble media, meaning its going to need replacing that much sooner....

It doesnt hurt me to turn off my electronic devices during takeoff and landing, and it doesnt hurt me to wipe the lube off my cases by hand. I dont need a news report showing me a plane crash caused by a cell phone, or graphic pictures of a missing hand from an exploded gun. Chances are neither will ever happen, but I sure dont want to be the first for either!
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Old February 12, 2012, 04:38 PM   #24
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Tumbling loaded rounds

Quote:
Originally Posted by OwenW
The projectiles are ruined, and im not sure if the cases were saveable, they were really squished. I put the good ones in the tumbler to shine them up. Is that a bad thing?
Two questions: Can a round be set off by tumbling? Can tumbling damage the powder inside a loaded round?

I have never read or anyone setting a round off by putting it in a tumbler, but most people do not tumble loaded rounds, so the population that might provide examples is small.

I did read a thread where one person examined his powder, then loaded some rounds and tumbled them for a long time and pulled some rounds apart and examined the powder again to see if there was any difference in the powder (granule size, shape or color). Many powders are coated, and rubbing it off might change the burn characteristics. Jury is still out on that one.

Most people don't, though lots of ammunition is subjected to vibration in other ways, especially military stuff.

Do a search on the phrase "tumbling loaded rounds" to read more.

Most folks prefer that their brass be as clean as possible BEFORE running through the sizing die, believing that brass without any sand or grit they might have picked up will be easier on both their dies and their brass.

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Old February 13, 2012, 12:32 AM   #25
frumious
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Lost Sheep,

Oh, I get it. Thing is, I have all Lee belling dies...they only seem to have the shoulder bit, not the whole sleeve (mandrel) below it like yours. I understand what you mean now about the wrong belling parts in the right die could "undo" proper resizing.

Learn something new every day (and it HURTS ).

-cls
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