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Old December 11, 2008, 03:30 AM   #51
Odd Job
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Shawn, I would like to know why no deflection of bullets is seen in ballistic gelatin, whereas I have seen many cases where a bullet has been deflected or otherwise diverted from its original path, without hitting any bone.
Can you explain that?
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Old December 11, 2008, 10:51 AM   #52
Shawn Dodson
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JohnKSa writes:
Quote:
Didn't the autopsy show that the bullet in question went through Platt's upper arm before entering his chest?
Yes, it perforated the right biceps muscle (wound B in the autopsy report).

Odd Job writes:
Quote:
Shawn, I would like to know why no deflection of bullets is seen in ballistic gelatin, whereas I have seen many cases where a bullet has been deflected or otherwise diverted from its original path, without hitting any bone.
Can you explain that?
I've seen bullets, both handgun and rifle, "deflected" in gelatin, caused by yaw or hydrodynamic effects of asymmetrical expansion.
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Old December 11, 2008, 03:40 PM   #53
Odd Job
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I'm talking about significant deflection (probably would go out the gel block unexpectedly).
Here is an extreme example of what I mean:



The weapon was a handgun, ammunition and calibre unknown.
Skin breaches marked with paperclips, expected trajectory was somewhere along the red line, or in proximity thereof. Actual trajectory confirmed at surgery was yellow line (there was a liver injury).
No bony injury was found, no evidence of a bone strike.
Could you see such a radical change of trajectory in gel?
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Old December 15, 2008, 01:14 PM   #54
Shawn Dodson
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I have to ask, what kind of tissue could force a bullet to make a sudden 90-degree turn?

Was the subject's body pressing against a hard surface (e.g., lying down, leaning against a concrete wall, etc.)

A two dimensional xray and vague explanation is not enough information to discern what happened.

We need the full story.

Cheers!
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Old December 15, 2008, 06:55 PM   #55
Odd Job
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Shawn, the round didn't exit the abdominal cavity in the region of the change of trajectory. The only damage that was found in that region was a liver laceration (more like a groove actually) that was packed with SurgiSilk.
I photographed the man and his clothing, supervised or took the X-rays (I can't say which without digging up the case notes) and I accompanied the man to theatre and watched the surgery.
If I thought there was another reason for that deflection, I would offer it, but so far it goes down in my book as a soft tissue deflection. It isn't the only one I've seen, but it is one of the most bizarre.
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Old December 16, 2008, 01:49 AM   #56
Shawn Dodson
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Well, dang it, dig out your notes. What tissues were involved?

Cartridge? Make? Bullet weight? What did the recovered bullet look like?

The FN P90 and 4.45x39mm yaw almost 90-degrees in gelatin and soft tissues. I doubt it was merely a "soft tissue" deflection - there's more involved.
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Old December 16, 2008, 02:27 AM   #57
Apone
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Quote:
Had he been hit with the 200 gr 40's that D.T. puts out he would be have been down looking at his arm lying on the ground beside him. Look at the chart above.
One thing to consider when looking at ballistics gel: Much of the large dark area represents temporary cavitation which does not wound as most internal organs, except the brain and liver, have the elasticity necessary to avoid significant injury.

Quote:
The reason is that most tissue in the human target is
elastic in nature. Muscle, blood vessels, lung, bowels,
all are capable of substantial stretching with minimal
damage. Studies have shown that the outward velocity of
the tissues in which the temporary cavity forms is no
more than one tenth of the velocity of the projectile.21
This is well within the elasticity limits of tissue such
as muscle, blood vessels, and lungs, Only inelastic
tissue like liver, or the extremely fragile tissues of
the brain, would show significant damage due to
temporary cavitation.22
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Old December 17, 2008, 04:38 PM   #58
Odd Job
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Quote:
Well, dang it, dig out your notes. What tissues were involved?
Cartridge? Make? Bullet weight? What did the recovered bullet look like?
Okay, I got the notes.
This was a male in his late twenties, shot once at near contact range. All he could say was that it was a handgun pressed close to his body, during a close quarters scuffle. He was wearing an unzipped all-weather jacket and a T-shirt at the time.
Only one shot was fired.
The round went through the T-shirt and breached his skin in the left upper quadrant of the abdomen, anteriorly. There was stippling of the skin in an oval distribution at the entrance site. The round exited at the lower right quadrant of the abdomen, anteriorly. There was a single exit wound.
The projectile did not breach the T-shirt at the exit site but there were four small holes in the fabric at the expected exit site in the fabric. I can't find any explanation for the four small holes in the T-shirt and the likelihood is that the projectile breached the skin, hit the inside of the T-shirt and dropped to the ground. No projectile was recovered. (Note: some of these patients keep the bullets in order to have them blessed by a Sangoma so that the gunshot injury does not cause impotence, financial ruin or undue infection. It is entirely possible that he picked up the bullet and pocketed it, or passed it to a relative before attending hospital).

He had a seated AP CXR and a supine AXR (not done by me). No opaque fragments were found. No bony injury was found.
At surgery there were two findings:

1) Hole in the left hemidiaphragm (which they sutured)
2) A groove or laceration to the liver anteriorly, left lobe. This groove was almost horizontal, a few inches long and was packed with SurgiSilk.

I took photographs during the surgery and watched the surgeons looking for damaged organs. Everything was fine except for the injuries above. No injury was found on the inside of the abdominal cavity and there was no skin breach anywhere in the right upper quadrant. The only damage found was two skin breaches, one hole in the left hemidiaphragm and one liver injury. I could not photograph the diaphragm injury but I did get pics of the liver injury. I couldn't get round to the patient's right to photograph that diaphragm injury (would have needed a really low angle shot from the lower right of the patient).

The only other intervention done was a chest drain, more as a precaution against a pneumothorax on the left.
The patient made a full recovery.

The only logical conclusion here is that the projectile made a course change in the right upper quadrant. Only the liver was damaged in that area, and there is no way a hard surface could contact the projectile to cause that change in direction.

I'll admit this is a very unusual and extreme example of this kind of deflection, but I have seen many others of a lesser magnitude. If these projectiles were immune to the affects of different tissue densities, we wouldn't be finding them tracking down tissue planes and 'off course' when comparing to the expected trajectory.

Of course there are variables that influence the interpretation of what that trajectory is, radiologically, but I doubt that any person working in the medical field is going to dispute the fact that projectiles from small arms have been seen or found in unexpected areas of the body without any bone strike having taken place.
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