Breaking up a fight - Page 3

Pointer · December 31, 2005, 02:35 AM

DON'T Break it up!!!

Let them wear each other down a bit first...

and then if you feel you must interfere... you will have the advantage!!

The best hero is the guy who knows when...

Eghad · January 1, 2006, 02:04 AM

picture phone & dial 9/11.......

usually the person intervening gets turned on......

GetSetToJet · January 1, 2006, 05:10 AM

I'd just like to bring to mind a famous quote that goes something like this, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

stratus · January 1, 2006, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pointer

Let them wear each other down a bit first...

and then if you feel you must interfere... you will have the advantage!!

The best hero is the guy who knows when...

Another good point by Pointer, hence the name.

SamD · January 1, 2006, 10:03 PM

GLP Standard and Pointer have the problem well in hand.
best possibel ending.

Sam

garryc · January 1, 2006, 10:23 PM

Not to sound cock but, if I'm toe to toe with another dude mind your own business. Now if imminent danger is a factor that’s a different story.

Pointer · January 2, 2006, 04:21 PM

Stratus

Made my day, you did.

arnie08515 · January 3, 2006, 09:51 AM

two women broke into a fight inside a mall in New Jersey. I saw the whole thing and thought about stopping it. It was like a jungle scene. A real cat fight. Eventually, the mall security came and broke it off. but I thought what if one pulled a knife. Society is falling apart.

cxm · January 3, 2006, 10:26 AM

Not to be rude...but "seriously dumb" comes to mind.

There is no reason to get involved in an affray between people you don'k know... in fact there usually isn't a good reason to get involved in an affray between peopleyou know.

The risks of a bad outcome, far outweigh the chance of a good outcome... I'd say you were VERY lucky.

On the positive side, it didn't get to felony stupid... You are a lucky guy.

V/r

Chuck

progunner1957 · January 3, 2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

I have to say that I was disgusted when I read the majority of replies here. I agree with Doug.38PR too much of turning a blind eye and making excuses for it going on. Everyone saying, just call the cops let them handle it and go on. That’s something to be ashamed of. I hate to break it to you people but legality and morality are mutually exclusive.

Legality and morality may be mutually exclusive, but it's the law that will put your "anus" behind bars for a good number of years if you jump in to a street brawl and you end up having to shoot one or both of the contestants in order for you to come out of it alive.

The prosecutor will label you a "mutual combatant," your interference "predictably esclating the situation," the use of your firearm "vigilante justice," and you "a Charles Bronson wannabe."

A jury of The Sheeple will swallow his bait whole and you will become inmate #1234567 for the next 10 to 20 years - that is, if you are not stabbed to death in the fight.

Think about it.

PzGren · January 3, 2006, 11:37 AM

Remember, all it takes for evil to triumph, is good men standing by and do nothing.

You were one of the good men that did not just stand by! Good job.

Mr. James · January 3, 2006, 12:45 PM

Horsehockey.

Our intrepid crimebuster needlessly inserted himself into a situation with which he had, charitably, a fleeting understanding, and introduced handguns into what was, at that point, a fist fight.

Calling 9-1-1 is not "doing nothing." Being a good witness is not doing nothing. Keeping yourself in one piece to protect your loved ones is also not "doing nothing." Since mvpel never suggests anyone was about to get his ticket punched permanently, there was no need to wade in. I've seen cases where the combatants suddenly find common cause, turn on their would-be rescuers, and escalate a knuckle-headed knuckle-dusting into a genuine, skull-stomping brawl. Being the "third man in" is bad juju in life, as in hockey.

One has to attribute it to Divine Providence that mvpel didn't end up stabbed, shot, or having felt himself compelled to shoot one of the original combatants. This scenario had about a score of possible denouements, nineteen of them very bad indeed. Thank God mvpel walked away from this one and got to sleep in his own bed.

OneInTheChamber · January 3, 2006, 02:46 PM

It's the "right" thing to intervene, but when carrying a concealed handgun; I'd be a lot more prone to letting someone else do it.

I admire you courage; but must say that:

1. It could have all gone fine, like it happened for you.
2. It could have gotten you beat up a little and solve the situation at your expense.
3. You could have been seriously hurt; knocked out or whatever and could've died.
4. Could've gotten out of control; you draw and shoot two guys that would've gotten shot if you wouldn't have entered. You could be held very responsible for this.

Its a chance, you either solve it or it exponentially grows out of control and someone ends up dead.

Chase

mvpel · January 6, 2006, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azredhawk

I would still break up a fight in that particular bar, though, because I consider it "mine" in a way. No, I'm not armed there, and never will be. Too much potential trouble. But in a way, it's part of my living room, or my back yard, or something like that.

I think this is likely why my friend intervened, telling the two guys to cool it. He's had dinner at this particular restaurant every Monday evening for the past two years or more, and various other times as well since he's rather fond of one of the waitresses there.

What's interesting is that this sort of thing is getting to the point of being routine in another city outside its nightclubs, but he's said in all the time he's lived in this city he's never seen anything like this happen in its downtown, ever.

Pezo · January 6, 2006, 05:36 PM

carrying a ccw weapon if anything, you should be less intervening and confrontational than ever before. Having a gun does not a policeman make. The best you should have done was called the police. The gun is for your protection against an inevitable threat of great bodily harm against you, it's a last resort and final item to use. Do not purposely put yourself in any of harms way like that again. You would almost certainly wind up the loser in that situation. either killed or put in jail for turning a common fist fight into a one sided gun fight.

edited to say rule #1 about surviving gun fight= avoid gun fight. even if it is only one party carrying dont create uneccesary risk.

losangeles · January 7, 2006, 03:57 AM

I'm with the majority on this one: Do not intervene.

That's my position based on growing up on the rougher streets of LA. If two thugs are going at it, for whatever reason you don't know, let them at it. Call 911 if you like. I've seen such in things before -- Crips versus Bloods -- fighting over silliness. If you have the nerve to intervene, they both may take you down before resuming their hostilities. Oh, you have a gun! So you could shoot them if they do that? Will you have made things better?

Kframe · January 8, 2006, 02:08 AM

Bad idea getting involved in the scuffle.

Noble? Maybe. But still a bad idea.

The intent is to settle down the situation and make things all nice and happy, but by introducing one or two guns to a fight that you didn't have to engage is just foolish.

Okay, let's say it did get completely out of hand once you and your friend started "helping".
You end up shooting someone, sure, maybe he was drawing down on you at that instant, but the fact remains, AND WILL BE POINTED OUT IN COURT, that you did not have to participate in the first place, and since you knew you had a gun, you knew that you were entering a potential shooting, even if the others did not know you were packing.

Regardless of the outcome you experienced, you did inadvertantly escalate the situation.
You don't think so?

Really? Then what exactly do you call it when a two person pushing match becomes a four person scuffle with AT LEAST two guns present?
Sounds like an escalation to me. And it was willing. That is the kicker. You had the chance to leave, but stayed and added a gun to the fight.
Even if it was never drawn or fired, it WAS added to the fight since you, as a participant in the fight, were aware of its presence and you had access to it.

Unless you, your loved one(s), or an obviously-overpowered obviously-innocent person is in IMMEDIATE risk of death or great bodily harm, it is STUPID to get involved unless you have no other recourse, like leaving.

But, if you want to stick your neck out and possibly go to jail, or shoot someone, or get shot... then go ahead, keep looking for and engaging trouble.

Again, I respect the intent of your intervention, but it really wasn't a good idea.

-Kframe

joab · January 8, 2006, 06:27 AM

Two equally matched and equally willing combatants does not call for my intervention.
I have been known to watch a particularly good match.

Two on one or King Kong vs Bonzo is something that I would consider sticking my nose into.

The only time I ever butted into a duel was at a local buffet
A couple of head butters were blocking the entrance and I was hungry and in a hurry

I held my cell phone up to eye level with my arm extended out in front of me and semi-loudly said 9-1-1 as I was pushing the buttons. Then I looked at them and said
"It's up to you guys, do I push send or do you get your heads out of your asses"
Apparently I'm a fat old man that does things to his mother but it worked and I was able to stand about 15 feet from them throughout the incident

RioShooter · January 8, 2006, 12:34 PM

stephen426 said

Quote:

You are not a police officer. Mind your own business. If they are not harming you or any of your loved ones, you are just looking for trouble. Just because you are carrying does not make you a free lance cop. If they got pissed off at your intervention and decided to go "through you" to get to the other guy, you can't really say that it was self defense. I would call the cops and advise them that the cops have been called. If you are not the business owner and if if their actions do not affect you, I say mind your own business!

Excellent advise for everyone with a CHL. My CHL instructor told my class not to adopt a "protect the public" attitude just because you carry a gun. That's the job of LEOs, not CHLs.

NDTerminator · January 8, 2006, 10:49 PM

As a LEO with nearly 30 years on the street, Firearms Instructor, Defensive Tactics Instructor, and High Risk Entry Team Leader, I'll give you the following advice...

Don't put yourself in the middle of the situation. A. You will probably escalate it, and B. As you are not a sworn officer, you have neither the legal power to do anything, or legal protection from a lawsuit stemming from any action you take.

Call 911, let the LEOs handle it. Cooperate fully as a witness if needed...

January 1, 2006, 02:04 AM	#52
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	picture phone & dial 9/11....... usually the person intervening gets turned on...... __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

January 1, 2006, 10:03 PM	#55
SamD Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Nueva Mexico Posts: 166	GLP Standard and Pointer have the problem well in hand. best possibel ending. Sam __________________ "It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards"

January 3, 2006, 10:26 AM	#59
cxm Member Join Date: October 11, 2004 Location: Tejas Posts: 40	Seriously Dumb Not to be rude...but "seriously dumb" comes to mind. There is no reason to get involved in an affray between people you don'k know... in fact there usually isn't a good reason to get involved in an affray between peopleyou know. The risks of a bad outcome, far outweigh the chance of a good outcome... I'd say you were VERY lucky. On the positive side, it didn't get to felony stupid... You are a lucky guy. V/r Chuck

January 3, 2006, 12:45 PM	#62
Mr. James Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: The Old Dominion Posts: 1,521	Horsehockey. Our intrepid crimebuster needlessly inserted himself into a situation with which he had, charitably, a fleeting understanding, and introduced handguns into what was, at that point, a fist fight. Calling 9-1-1 is not "doing nothing." Being a good witness is not doing nothing. Keeping yourself in one piece to protect your loved ones is also not "doing nothing." Since mvpel never suggests anyone was about to get his ticket punched permanently, there was no need to wade in. I've seen cases where the combatants suddenly find common cause, turn on their would-be rescuers, and escalate a knuckle-headed knuckle-dusting into a genuine, skull-stomping brawl. Being the "third man in" is bad juju in life, as in hockey. One has to attribute it to Divine Providence that mvpel didn't end up stabbed, shot, or having felt himself compelled to shoot one of the original combatants. This scenario had about a score of possible denouements, nineteen of them very bad indeed. Thank God mvpel walked away from this one and got to sleep in his own bed. __________________ "...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li "When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat

January 3, 2006, 02:46 PM	#63
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	It's the "right" thing to intervene, but when carrying a concealed handgun; I'd be a lot more prone to letting someone else do it. I admire you courage; but must say that: 1. It could have all gone fine, like it happened for you. 2. It could have gotten you beat up a little and solve the situation at your expense. 3. You could have been seriously hurt; knocked out or whatever and could've died. 4. Could've gotten out of control; you draw and shoot two guys that would've gotten shot if you wouldn't have entered. You could be held very responsible for this. Its a chance, you either solve it or it exponentially grows out of control and someone ends up dead. Chase __________________ Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.

December 31, 2005, 02:35 AM	#51
Pointer Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2005 Location: Utah Posts: 2,559	DON'T Break it up!!! Let them wear each other down a bit first... and then if you feel you must interfere... you will have the advantage!! The best hero is the guy who knows *when...*

January 1, 2006, 05:10 AM	#53
GetSetToJet Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 17	I'd just like to bring to mind a famous quote that goes something like this, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

January 1, 2006, 10:23 PM	#56
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	Not to sound cock but, if I'm toe to toe with another dude mind your own business. Now if imminent danger is a factor that’s a different story.

January 2, 2006, 04:21 PM	#57
Pointer Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2005 Location: Utah Posts: 2,559	Stratus Made my day, you did.

January 3, 2006, 09:51 AM	#58
arnie08515 Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 48	two women broke into a fight inside a mall in New Jersey. I saw the whole thing and thought about stopping it. It was like a jungle scene. A real cat fight. Eventually, the mall security came and broke it off. but I thought what if one pulled a knife. Society is falling apart.

January 3, 2006, 11:37 AM	#61
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,264	Remember, all it takes for evil to triumph, is good men standing by and do nothing. You were one of the good men that did not just stand by! Good job.

January 6, 2006, 05:36 PM	#65
Pezo Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Vernors and orange barrels. Posts: 661	carrying a ccw weapon if anything, you should be less intervening and confrontational than ever before. Having a gun does not a policeman make. The best you should have done was called the police. The gun is for your protection against an inevitable threat of great bodily harm against you, it's a last resort and final item to use. Do not purposely put yourself in any of harms way like that again. You would almost certainly wind up the loser in that situation. either killed or put in jail for turning a common fist fight into a one sided gun fight. edited to say rule #1 about surviving gun fight= avoid gun fight. even if it is only one party carrying dont create uneccesary risk.

January 7, 2006, 03:57 AM	#66
losangeles Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Posts: 83	I'm with the majority on this one: Do not intervene. That's my position based on growing up on the rougher streets of LA. If two thugs are going at it, for whatever reason you don't know, let them at it. Call 911 if you like. I've seen such in things before -- Crips versus Bloods -- fighting over silliness. If you have the nerve to intervene, they both may take you down before resuming their hostilities. Oh, you have a gun! So you could shoot them if they do that? Will you have made things better? __________________ Ruger Mk III Hunter - Mk III Target - 2x Ruger 10/22 - Ruger GP-100 - Ruger Single Six 9.5" - Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag 10" - S&W 637 - Taurus 85 - Glock 17 - CZ 75 B - CZ 452 - Remington 870 - Marlin 336 - Yugo SKS M59 - Swiss K31 - Russian Mosin Nagant M44 - Russian Mosin Nagant M91 My hobby site: http://www.shootershangout.com

January 8, 2006, 02:08 AM	#67
Kframe Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 1999 Location: MN Posts: 640	Bad idea getting involved in the scuffle. Noble? Maybe. But still a bad idea. The intent is to settle down the situation and make things all nice and happy, but by introducing one or two guns to a fight that you didn't have to engage is just foolish. Okay, let's say it did get completely out of hand once you and your friend started "helping". You end up shooting someone, sure, maybe he was drawing down on you at that instant, but the fact remains, AND WILL BE POINTED OUT IN COURT, that you did not have to participate in the first place, and since you knew you had a gun, you knew that you were entering a potential shooting, even if the others did not know you were packing. Regardless of the outcome you experienced, you did inadvertantly escalate the situation. You don't think so? Really? Then what exactly do you call it when a two person pushing match becomes a four person scuffle with AT LEAST two guns present? Sounds like an escalation to me. And it was willing. That is the kicker. You had the chance to leave, but stayed and added a gun to the fight. Even if it was never drawn or fired, it WAS added to the fight since you, as a participant in the fight, were aware of its presence and you had access to it. Unless you, your loved one(s), or an obviously-overpowered obviously-innocent person is in IMMEDIATE risk of death or great bodily harm, it is STUPID to get involved unless you have no other recourse, like leaving. But, if you want to stick your neck out and possibly go to jail, or shoot someone, or get shot... then go ahead, keep looking for and engaging trouble. Again, I respect the intent of your intervention, but it really wasn't a good idea. -Kframe

January 8, 2006, 06:27 AM	#68
joab Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2002 Location: Orl Fla Posts: 3,254	Two equally matched and equally willing combatants does not call for my intervention. I have been known to watch a particularly good match. Two on one or King Kong vs Bonzo is something that I would consider sticking my nose into. The only time I ever butted into a duel was at a local buffet A couple of head butters were blocking the entrance and I was hungry and in a hurry I held my cell phone up to eye level with my arm extended out in front of me and semi-loudly said 9-1-1 as I was pushing the buttons. Then I looked at them and said "It's up to you guys, do I push send or do you get your heads out of your asses" Apparently I'm a fat old man that does things to his mother but it worked and I was able to stand about 15 feet from them throughout the incident __________________ Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing Last edited by joab; January 9, 2006 at 12:42 AM.

January 8, 2006, 10:49 PM	#70
NDTerminator Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Posts: 59	As a LEO with nearly 30 years on the street, Firearms Instructor, Defensive Tactics Instructor, and High Risk Entry Team Leader, I'll give you the following advice... Don't put yourself in the middle of the situation. A. You will probably escalate it, and B. As you are not a sworn officer, you have neither the legal power to do anything, or legal protection from a lawsuit stemming from any action you take. Call 911, let the LEOs handle it. Cooperate fully as a witness if needed... __________________ To my great mortification, my father once told me; "you care nothing but for dogs, shooting, and rat catching, you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family" Charles Darwin