The "staying power" of the .308 Winchester

[Dan Newberry]

There has been no shortage of opinions offered as to why the .308 Winchester just won't pick up its marbles and go home. The onslaught of 6.5's into long range work has been going on for a while now. The .260 Remington began making inroads against the .308's popularity in sniper type comps some years ago. And now the 6.5 Creedmore and the 6.5x47 Lapua are gaining popularity--though they're probably doing more damage to the .260 rem's numbers than to what's left of the .308 out there.

But what is "left of" the .308's popularity is, when counted, quite a lot. I continue to see mostly .308's coming to our shooting courses and long range comps, and I'm not so much thinking that trend is going to change anytime soon if ever.

Is it the "military effect" that keeps the .308 so popular when there are presumably so many "better" choices out there for long range work? This has been alleged, and to some extent, it's probably true; the military has stayed primarily with the .308 Winchester cartridge (hair splitters stand down, I know it's the 7.62x51) for their sniper rifles, choosing not to go the way of the Swedes, so to speak, by choosing anything in the 6.5 family of cartridges.

But I don't think this "military effect" is the real reason for the .308's continued popularity--rather I think the true reasons for the cartridge's continued success will help to explain just why our military continues to use the .308. But before we get to those reasons, let's look at a few of the reasons folks are choosing the 6.5's and even 6mm's over the .308 for long range work.

Wind drift. The biggie. You see a lot of comparisons between a 168 grain match bullet from a .308 launched at 2600 fps and a 6.5 mm 140 grain bullet launched at 2650 to even 2700 fps. Setting aside the fact that the 168 grain match bullet would be at or near subsonic at 1000 yards with an MV of 2600 fps, ballistic programs show it will drift just over a minute of angle in a 1 mph wind at 1000 yards. But the 6.5mm 140 grain bullet will drift about 30 percent less than that, with a realistic MV of 2650 fps. Push the 6.5mm 140 to 2750 fps and you can increase that drift advantage to 35 percent or so.

The power factor. Some of us .308 aficionados have tried to point out the 30 caliber's weight and energy advantage over the typical 6.5mm at long range. However, charts contrived and available around the 'net will show 140's launched at 2750 fps turning in mid 600's for foot pounds of energy at 1000 yards--and a 175 grain 30 caliber Matchking launched at 2650 fps turning in about 25 foot pounds less at that same range.

But if you want to go down the road of finagling numbers in ballistic charts we can... If you want a power advantage for the .308 it's a simple matter to give it a 208 AMAX at an easy 2525 fps for a stunning 950 foot pounds of energy at 1000 yards. Game over, big time. And it drifts the same as the 140 grain 6.5mm at that range as well.

"Well I can get my 6.5mm 140's to 2850 fps."

And I can get the 208 AMAX's to 2600 fps. You can run those numbers on your own time, but suffice it to say that you'll need 6.5-284 power to get close to the drift numbers of the thirty caliber 208 AMAX with a 2600 fps push.

Recoil. Recoil control is indeed part of the accuracy equation (a too often forgotten part, I'd say). And the lighter bullets from the 260's will get you an advantage in this department over the .308 shooting bullets fast enough and heavy enough to hang with the 6.5's. We saw this when the 6.5/284 really began to unseat the 300WM in long range comps. Not that the 6.5/284 was any more inherently accurate than the 300WM--I don't believe it is--but it recoils less, and given the same ballistic properties for wind drift, the accuracy advantage will go to 6.5/284--unless the magnum shooter has found a way by weight of the rifle and/or the addition of a muzzle brake to get the 300WM's recoil down. Here again, though... run the numbers and look at the power factor downrange. If power matters, recoil will be a necessary evil to be dealt with--and it can be managed through various means.

Trajectory. Here is where the flatter shooting 6.5 and 6mm cartridges are getting the advantage over the .308's heavier bullets, flying those "rainbow" trajectories. In a situation where you're working on a target of unknown distance and you're estimating range either by reticle subtension or just "eyeballing" it, the flatter shooting the cartridge, the more likely you're going to get a hit. And to me, this is the best case for going to the lighter, faster bullet over the .308--if you're looking for a reason, that is.

I said all of the above primarily to just get those arguments off the table, and hopefully deflect the rhetoric that often flies in a conversation about 30 caliber versus 26. Now, if you're still with me, I'll get to the reason that I believe the .308 really continues to hang on to the lion's share of popularity in the long range practical arena. It is "user friendly."

By the way, I'm not saying that the .308 is necessarily going to show up more often than 6.5's at the competitions or matches that you may personally be familiar with--I'm simply saying that based on the sales numbers, far more people are buying .308s than are buying these smaller calibers. Esoteric shooting events are not always a good indicator of what's really going on in the market at large.

For those of us who handload enough to make the claim with a straight face that we've graduated from the rank of novice, we'll admit that while truncated versions of the .308 Winchester (the .243 Win and the .260 Rem) can be a bit fussy about what they'll shoot and what they'll splatter, the .308 is not picky. Did you ever go to lunch with a picky eater? First, they can't decide where they want to go... then they can't decide what they want off the menu... then they want to alter the dish in some manner aside from how it is typically served. And then they complain anyway.

But the .308 is not such a critter. It'll "like" bullets from 125 grains all the way to 210 grains, and it'll digest various powders with aplomb and decent accuracy. From 3031 to something as slow as IMR 4350--or even 4831, the .308 will deliver the goods. It is "easy to please" is what I'm saying, whereas the .243 and the .260 are both prone to being picky eaters (if we'll be honest).

And so I think it is this "user friendliness" that allows ammo makers to make match grade sub MOA accurate cartridges for the .308 which can be relied upon to shoot tight from untold millions of different rifles. As I've said many times, "show me a .308 that won't shoot lights out with Federal Gold Medal Match, and I'll show you a rifle in need of a trip to the gunsmith." Not so, however, with necked down versions of the cartridge. They're going to be picky enough on an individual level that mass producing match grade ammo will be a harder task. It'll be harder to get the recipe right, harder to keep the charge on the node, and harder to continue selling that ammo once 3/4's of the population shooting that cartridge find that it won't shoot as well as their handloads in their own rifles.

So let's see if I'm right. In a dozen or two dozen years... if this little blurb somehow manages to last out there in the cyber world long enough to be found and referred back to, I'm betting the .308 will remain ensconced where it is now, not having been unseated by anything new, or anything better.

Dan Newberry

[Jimro]

Some logical reasons, a few not so logical:

1. Issue precision weapons are generally in 308 Win. So if a SWAT/SRT guy wants to train on his off time he'll train in 308.

2. F/TR class. Requires 308 Win or 223 Rem only. F Class open is dominated by the Big 7's, which push impressive ballistics of their own, some much more impressive to me than even the 6.5x284.

3. The "it's good enough" idea. The Swede government finally gave up their M41B sniper rifles, launching a 139gr 6.5 FMJBT bullet around 2600 fps for 308 Win sniper systems for NATO compliance. This was completed in the 1980s, making the M41/M41B one of the longest serving sniper rifles in active military history (the Russians still take the record for sticking with a system, although Russian sniper ops are more what we would consider DM systems).

4. Availability of quality ammo. Black Hills, Federal, Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" all come to mind when it comes to quality match ammo for 308. Much fewer options when it comes to the 6.5s, especially in bulk. They are out there, but less options.

5. Equipment can decide the difference between equally skilled shooters, but a wind reading master will do just fine on a 308. It is still cheaper to get a basic heavy barrel 308 rifle than any other precision setup to get started training long range.

6. Some of us like to shoot more than we like to win. I know it is crazy but when I go to a match, I'm just trying to beat my last score. Beating other people doesn't tell me anything about myself and my skill progression. We can do this with a 308 just as easily as a 6.5.

8. Some people like the ability to use crappy ammo in a pinch. Milsurp 308 seems to be drying up, so this reason may go away.

And those are the reasons off the top of my head I think the 308 is going to be with us for years to come. Think about the staying power of the 30-06, and we've been using 308 Win for about the same amount of time now as when the 308 was introduced to replace the 06.

Jimro

[Dan Newberry]

Great post Jimro... good logic, for sure.

[jmr40]

Like the 30-06 it just works without a lot of fuss. One of the easiest rounds to load for. Pour almost any suitable powder into a case and put any decent bullet over it and expect to hit what you aim at.

[57K]

Cousin Dan, nice write up. I agree that the NATO designation plays into things but the .308 is an inherently accurate cartridge that will stick around for quite some time.

Of all the various 6.5s I am most enamored with the 6.5 X 284 but haven't bought one yet.

What I'm looking at now is the .308's offspring, the 7mm-08 that I think compares very favorably in the discussion. Ramshot just sent me data for Hunter for bullets of 120 grs. up to 175 grs. As I suspected, performance is excellent and load densities go from 100% to 108%. My suspicion was that Hunter might be THE 7mm-08 powder. Now I have to find a rifle, which I believe I have, and then locate some Hunter and start load development. Think I'll start with 120 & 140 gr. Ballistic Tips.

[LAH]

Great post Dan.

[Clark]

The first 308 I ever shot was an M60 machine gun with every 5 th round on the belt was a tracer.

My father was a gun designer and the guy with the gun was a government inspector.

I was 14 then in 1965.
Now I am 62 in 2013.
I have a 308 reamer, lots of 308 dies, way more than my own weight in 308 brass.
I have in 308:
3 FALs
1 Enfield 2A
1 Arisaka
2 Sav 99s
~ 5 Mausers
----------------
12 308s

I think the cartridge sucks for my hunting purposes at long range.

When I buy a rifle in 300WM, 30-06 or 308 or 30/40 Krag, I plan on taking the barrel off.

I like 7mmRemMag.
Stepping down from there I shoot 270, 257 Roberts Ackley, 223, or rimfire.

[mxsailor803]

I think we can just plainly say, it's one of the most versitile cartridges ever developed. Think about with just simple ammo and dope adjustments you can go from shooting predators/varmits to elk/moose. It's safe to say that the .308win is not going anywhere. At least not out of my collection.

[Bart B.]

mxsailor803 says: "Think about with just simple ammo and dope adjustments you can go from shooting predators/varmits to elk/moose."

One hundred eighteen years ago, the same thing was said about the .30-30 WCF cartridge.

One hundred seven years ago, the same thing was said about the .30-06 cartridge.

[ChaseReynolds]

When I was buying my Remington 700 .308, I took into consideration what I knew from the Army (my job) about the M24. (No I am not a sniper) The second was cost of the rifle. Like many said in this thread before me, the platform was pretty cost effective along with ammo is available and decently priced.

If I get into long range shooting competitions then I may consider something else but for now, .308 works for me and I can take a deer if I want to with my setup.

[Jimro]

Bart B. makes a great point, everyone talks about the utility of a particular cartridge. The cartridge that started this thread is ballistically inferior to that old standby, 6.5x55 which was designed all the way back in 1891.

A 140gr bullet launched between 2650 and 2850 fps (depending on your load data) is within the safety margin of the 6.5x55. The 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, top out at the same level. Ballistically there is nothing new under the sun.

The 6.5x284 really doesn't do anything that the 6.5 Rem Mag or 264 Win Mag could already do.

Bryan Litz wrote, "What's wrong with .30 caliber?" a while ago, and his points are every bit as valid as Dan's post. You can google the phrase and read the article, it is worth your time to do so if you haven't.

Of course, at practical hunting ranges, doesn't really matter what you use as long as you do your part, the bullet will do its part.

Jimro

[Bart B.]

Then there's this little known bit of history on the .308 Win. cartridge.

It was developed from the .300 Savage cartridge. Frankford Arsenal bought thousands of commercial .300 Savage cases used in the process testing .30-06 bullets and powders used at the time.

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I am a .308 fan but the 300WM impresses me with Mk248 mod1 rounds.These rounds are impressive out to and past 1700 yards(no, I don't shoot them that far). I understand why the Army is changing over, but the .308 has earned it's place in history with service. Just my personal preference but I love 30 cal rifles in general. I will take 300WM over 6.8, 7mm or 270. I no longer hunt, so I might burn through a barrel fast but a 220gr SMK with 77.5gr of H1000 behind it does the trick for me.
Warning: do not try this load in your over the counter rifle....it is a very HOT load and was the average of the Mk248 mod1. From the factory, they exceed SAMMI pressures.

[Jimro]

Crane NSWC upped the max pressure to 66k for the Mk248 Mod 1 family in an attempt to duplicate 338 Lapua Magnum ballistics for existing 300 Win Mag platforms.

The extra pressure is intentional.

Jimro

[TheNatureBoy]

Good read Mr. Newberry.

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

@Jimro, Yeah, it really kept the M24's alive. The Mk248 mod1 is a great round. I couldn't believe the ballistics reports when I first seen them. I have seen them first hand push the primers.

[Eppie]

The first 308 I ever shot was an M60 machine gun with every 5 th round on the belt was a tracer.

Me too. It was the summer of '72 I was 17 years old going through Basic at Fort Dix, N.J.

It was a given that we were headed to Vietnam, so we were learning to lay down a blanket of lead out to a about a 1,000 yard. When the first barrel started glowing we'd flip the levers put on another barrel and we'd be rocking again. Each one of us was allotted five ammo cans and we all used them up. It was great fun.

Now at 58 when I send in my quarterly payment to the US Treasury, I know where some of it is going.

[Jimro]

It is funny, but we were still learning on the M60 in 1998 when I went through basic. I can't ever recall firing a 308 before that, plenty of 22lr and both 270 Win and 30-30 though.

I cursed the decision to replaced the pig with the 240B as I walked up and down the hills of Dahlonega, both times, in 2007.

Jimro

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I'm betting the .308 will remain ensconced where it is now, not having been unseated by anything new, or anything better.

That is a bold statement.

One thing I've learn over the years. Whenever the military changes any of its small weapons ammunition the popularity of their abandoned past cartridge of choice wanes quite a bit in the marketplace. For instance when the NATO 5.56X45mm unseated its rival the 7.62x51 NATO. The commercial version of that cartridge sold to civilians known as the 223 Remington became an instant success in the marketplace as did the 308 when it replaced the 30-06. So to say the 308 will remain a constant. Only time will tell. If you look to the marketplace for statistic. I bet there are far more 223 platforms being sold today than 308 ones. If and when the military again decides to change up on its small arms ammunition for a cartridge that is more efficient and capable of outstanding accuracy. Again the civilian market will undoubtedly go head over heels in its perception of_" I just got to get me one of those!!"__ During those times more than likely those prior cartridges like the 223 Rem and 308 Win and that old timer known as the 30-06 I suspect will indeed slip a little towards obsolescence.

S/S

[Dan Newberry]

From what most ammo and rifle makers assert, the 30-06 is still the largest selling high powered rifle... even though the military hasn't used it in eons...

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

30-06: Here I would have thought the 223 held that distinction as the best selling high power rifle and cartridge. So that old gal the 06 is still on top. Ain't that something.

[pathdoc]

Bart, your point on the .308 being developed from the .30 Savage is interesting. I've often wondered why they didn't just go with the Savage, given that it isn't that much different in size and will closely match original .30-06 (and by extension .308) milspec ballistics. I'm willing to bet they probably had pressure-curve issues with available powders (e.g. the Savage was never primarily intended to cycle autoloaders; the .308 was by definition intended with this in mind) or wanted a little extra room to manoeuvre for specialist or high-end loads that they couldn't get with the Savage case.

To me, the reason for 7.62 NATO/.308 Win's popularity and longevity is that it seems to be one of those things that does no particular task best but all tasks well, as it were.

[Bart B.]

Pathdoc, the .308 is probably the most accurate 30 caliber cartridge on this planet through 1000 yards. Others may buck the wind better and shoot flatter, but as far as pure accuracy's concerned, I don't think any 30 caliber rounds going to beat it. It certainly kicked the .30-06 match rifles off the competition firing lines in less than 3 years.

Prior to the .308's arrival, the .300 Savage may well have been the most accurate 30 caliber cartrige. Sierra Bullets at one time considered using it to test all their 30 caliber bullets 180 grains and lighter. Its accuracy qualifications is one main reason why the military experts chose that round as a basis for developing a replacement for the .30-06.

But alas, the .300 Savage didn't hold enough powder to come within 100 fps of the .30-06 at the same 50K CUP pressure levels.

That Savage round's got more power (pressure and velocity with the same bullet weight) than the 7.62x39 AK47 cartridge so it could easily operate a semiauto. The Remington Model 81 semiauto was chambered for the .300 Savage back in the 1930's. Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_8

And finally, the .300 Savage didn't have a large enough extractor groove and rim thickness plus case wall thickness to safely hold the pressures and ejecting reliability requirements for military semiautos.

[johnwilliamson062]

One hundred seven years ago, the same thing was said about the .30-06 cartridge.

I'm not as knowledgeable as many in this thread, but I think with the 30-30 WCF I don't think people realized higher pressure was going to be as cheaply attained as it was a few years down the road.
On the 30-06, it isn't all that much different than the 308. Had it been developed for semi-auto rifles it would have been shorter and would still be in use.
So I think the transition has simply been the same idea pushed up with new technology. The 308 may be unseated, but it won't be by a 6.5. It will be by a 30 caliber cartridge that utilizes or is adapted to some new technology, but remains very similar to a 308 and 30-06. Possibly case-less or disintegrating case ammunition.

[Geezerbiker]

You want to talk about staying power, don't forget the .45-70 that's been with us for about 130 years...

Tony